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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 4:14:51 PM

Tigrita

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Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
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I think that struggles can force you to ask yourself how much you value a relationship. When you choose to work through a struggle, it demonstrates how much you value it. If you see a struggle and decide it is not worth working through, that is important too, becuase you may be wasting eachother's time if you had stayed together. That is not to say that i thing struggle is necessary, but the way a couple approaches and works through the first couple of initial struggles, whether they are misunderstandings, logistical dificulties, whatever, can cement a relationship in terms of acknowledging its value, and establishing how you communicate and resolve things together, they can be a foundation.

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 21

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 4:48:05 PM

kyraofMists

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I have been thinking about this post off and on today. I am not sure that struggle is the right word, though it may just be a matter of connotation rather than specific definitions that causes me to prefer challenge over struggle.

In order to be fulfilled, I have to keep my mind active. I enjoy problem solving. I enjoy thinking, taking thoughts and looking at them from multiple perspectives. I enjoy questioning and examining ideas and concepts in depth. If I find myself going too long between mental challenges I get lethargic, bored, restless.

He intentionally challenges me. He finds it rewarding and it is necessary for my well-being. If I don't feel challenged or think that things are too easy I often start creating problems out of nothing.

I don't connect it with my submission though. I would need the mental challenges if I was submitting to someone or not. For years, I sastified this need by studying math and meteorology in school. Right now I am finding myself between challenges and I am getting restless. I am enjoying life and extremely happy, but I will need to find something for my brain to work on or I could start sabatoging the things that make me happy.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 22

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 5:20:09 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Right now I am finding myself between challenges and I am getting restless. I am enjoying life and extremely happy, but I will need to find something for my brain to work on or I could start sabatoging the things that make me happy.

challenge your mind to be quiet!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 23

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:13:07 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Everyone does that that trite statement, if you LOVE yourself, you cannot be without love. I beg to differ. I myself have a wonderful family, no one loves me more than my beloved parents, my brothers, my sister in laws, my nieces and nephews and the few good friends I have made and kept in life.

While all of those loves are valuable, none of them are the type of love that an adult seeks of the romantic type and the type that holds you at midnight.

And yes, I can love myself to death, but it is quite trite to keep telling people to love themselves, believe me, I think I am fabulous but it is cold here right now without my own LOVE.

I know loneliness, I have not lived with a man since I was divorced mostly on intention.. I did not want my UM to have a lot of "uncles" and some stability... so there really is nothing that you can tell me about being alone and cold at night, or longing for a mate... I still live day by day by myself, because we are a few hours drive away from each other.

I grew to focus on other things because while a mate can add so much to your life, you still have to live if you do not have one... and since you believe that you only get one shot at happiness, I would think it would be even more crucial to be happy with what little time you have, whether there is a mate in that life or not.. fulfillment comes in all different shapes and sizes and packages after all.

I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 24

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:16:53 PM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Struggle, in any form or situation, isn't to be avoided in my belief system. It's how we learn and grow. I believe we contracted to learn certain lessons in our lives...so, if we don't learn them the first time around, they just come back around again...and sometimes with a 2x4 upside the head.

Master Fire

I find that allowing things to be as they are when I struggle with them eases the struggle a great deal... and that is a tremendous thing to have learned and leads me to being very relaxed and happy in life...avoiding it often just makes it worse

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 25

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:26:55 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I have been thinking about this post off and on today. I am not sure that struggle is the right word, though it may just be a matter of connotation rather than specific definitions that causes me to prefer challenge over struggle.

In order to be fulfilled, I have to keep my mind active. I enjoy problem solving. I enjoy thinking, taking thoughts and looking at them from multiple perspectives. I enjoy questioning and examining ideas and concepts in depth. If I find myself going too long between mental challenges I get lethargic, bored, restless.

He intentionally challenges me. He finds it rewarding and it is necessary for my well-being. If I don't feel challenged or think that things are too easy I often start creating problems out of nothing.

I don't connect it with my submission though. I would need the mental challenges if I was submitting to someone or not. For years, I sastified this need by studying math and meteorology in school. Right now I am finding myself between challenges and I am getting restless. I am enjoying life and extremely happy, but I will need to find something for my brain to work on or I could start sabatoging the things that make me happy.

Knight's Kyra

I love a challenge, so I mean something more arduous than a challenge...

While the challenges I have had in life were fun and caused growth, the struggles gave me more of who I am than the challenges did. I would classify a struggle as something "unpleasant" at the time you are experiencing it... so math is a struggle for me, while English is a challenge

...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 26

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:29:37 PM

yourMissTress

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From: Nashville, TN
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Growth through struggle...you have to want to grow in order to grow. It's all in your perception. Some people see struggle as just life throwing lemons at them, and some see struggle as an opportunity to learn and grow.

Yes, I have created situations to give my submissives the opportunity to struggle and grow through that struggle. Whether or not they realized it at the time, afterwards the specifics were revealed to them. Sometimes the lesson was simply that they struggled when they didn't have to, sometimes it was to teach them that they were strong, smart, clever, resourcful enough to achieve a goal. And sometimes it was to see on which side of the fence they fell, did they try to dodge the lemons? or did they reach out to catch and grab them so that they could make lemonade? I know, cliche, but true.

_____________________________

Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 27

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:36:30 PM

MasterFireMaam

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Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
However I doubt the kind of struggling you are talking about includes the victims of the Rwanda massacres, Darfur, the Holocaust, the Turkish genocide of the Armenian people, etc.

Yes, in my belief system, it does. How blessed we are that these people chose their path in such a way as to show us how far out of balance we can be as a whole. Like in an analogy of Christ, to me, each and every person died FOR ME (and for everyone else), as part of a plan to say, "Stop. Look. Listen. This is what we need to change.". I am deeply humbled to know this. I am also thankful, in my own way, to those who had to play the opposite side. How much courage it took for their inner beings to choose a path where they would be hated and condemned for their deads...all in an effort to create the above situation to make us PAY ATTENTION. They say history repeats itself. I say lesson keep coming around and around and around until we finally "get it". Soon, we will "get it" on a wordly, human-race-as-a-whole, scale because each time, the lesson gets bigger and bigger and more and more drastic in order make us PAY ATTENTION. Knowledge is power if we don't waste it.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 28

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:38:35 PM

MasterFireMaam

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Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I find that allowing things to be as they are when I struggle with them eases the struggle a great deal... and that is a tremendous thing to have learned and leads me to being very relaxed and happy in life...avoiding it often just makes it worse

Yes. The saying is: What we resist, persists.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 29

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:40:02 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress
did they try to dodge the lemons? or did they reach out to catch and grab them so that they could make lemonade? I know, cliche, but true.

I like to scoop 'em up, stick my tongue between my lips and blow 'em a great big raspberry....because raspberry lemonade is so much better....

Yes, I've struggled, been made to struggle and have found that coming through it to the other side is generally a catalyst for real growth.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to yourMissTress)

Post #: 30

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 6:58:35 PM

yourMissTress

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From: Nashville, TN
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Oh, raspberry lemonade! Even better!!

_____________________________

Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 31

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 11:15:23 PM

Ysabo

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Struggle is not thrust upon us, we choose our struggles, each according to what we need to learn and how we desire to grow. Though we may not see it in those terms, and wonder why the world has chosen to test us so, we truly do need struggle and pain and anguish to learn. The pain of loneliness teaches me day by day the value of holding someone near and dear. When I have learned enough through being alone, then I can find someone to hold. *smiles*

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 32

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/18/2007 11:45:49 PM

ownedgirlie

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Hi Julia, funny, I was just talking with an s-type on the phone yesterday about the same thing

First, your "All is Well" comment is something I hold onto, also. It may be a cool thread of its own, but for me, "All is Well" means, basically, that all is right with the spiritual sense of the universe. Richard Rohr, a Jesuit Priest (not that I affiliate my spiritual views with Christianity, currently) wrote a book called "Everything Belongs" of the same concept. Whatever happens is exactly what is supposed to happen. It belongs as it is.

But I digress...

Many of my struggles had to do with finding my inner self, inner happiness, inner love, and inner peace. I began my slavery in an unenviable (or enviable, depending on how one looks at it) place, in that I had little idea of who I was. I spent a lifetime being dictated to (in the most dictatorship sense of the word) how I should think, feel, believe, speak, express myself, etc., that I did not know what I liked, what I held dear, or even what values worked for me. The cool thing about this, is, at the age of 40, the world was a complete blank canvass for me.

So yes, there were lots of struggles. These struggles became a part of my slavery because of my Master's high demands on me. He saw my potential and pushed me to discover it for myself and then develop it. Through the course of self analysis, spiritual journeying, travels on my own, therapy, some very good friends (including family members) and some very good books, I came to discover who I am, and in that discovery, I learned that to be true to myself, I must submit as a slave, as I define a slave to be. It was a struggle to get to that place, because many internal walls had to come down, and many internal hurdles had to be toppled over (as opposed to jumped, because jumping a hurdle still leaves the hurdle there). Internal problems and baggage had to be resolved so that it would not return to need dealing with again, and some really toxic energy I had been hanging onto needed to be purged.

It became so frighteningly exciting to work through these struggles that I stopped fighting them and starting lunging for them head-on. I would beg my Master to put me through some awful things, just so I could delve deeper into myself and find out what I'm made of, what I'm capable of, and what I'm not capable of. And it seemed the more negative crap I purged from myself, the more room there was to let him in, and to let me in, and the bigger my capacity grew to love and submit.

I should also add that my Master has very closely monitored these struggles of mine, and helped me to balance them with some very serious life struggles that came at me unexpectedly throughout this past year. But even these life struggles have played a key part in discovering what I'm made of, who I am and who I must be, and how that fits in with the slave I need to be to him. I'm a better person because of all of it.

Oh and to the comment about struggles of victims of Rwanda, Darfur, the Holocaust, etc...the most amazing things can come from even those horrific catastrophes of man, as relayed in Victor Frankle's "Man's Search for Meaning", David Faber's "Because of Ramek", among other fascinating and life changing books. Mind you, that is not the kind of struggle I would actively seek...

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 33

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 6:39:48 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Hi Julia, funny, I was just talking with an s-type on the phone yesterday about the same thing

What an amazing coincidence!

quote:

First, your "All is Well" comment is something I hold onto, also. It may be a cool thread of its own

I may start one in the off topic area, but I have a feeling it would end up like that "Angst" thread I started way back when... because finding beauty in everything is not a very popular concept...

quote:

Many of my struggles had to do with finding my inner self, inner happiness, inner love, and inner peace. I began my slavery in an unenviable (or enviable, depending on how one looks at it) place, in that I had little idea of who I was. I spent a lifetime being dictated to (in the most dictatorship sense of the word) how I should think, feel, believe, speak, express myself, etc., that I did not know what I liked, what I held dear, or even what values worked for me. The cool thing about this, is, at the age of 40, the world was a complete blank canvass for me.

I can identify, when we seek others to define us, we lose who we are very often, and I feel like life is starting for me too.

quote:

It became so frighteningly exciting to work through these struggles that I stopped fighting them and starting lunging for them head-on. I would beg my Master to put me through some awful things, just so I could delve deeper into myself and find out what I'm made of, what I'm capable of, and what I'm not capable of. And it seemed the more negative crap I purged from myself, the more room there was to let him in, and to let me in, and the bigger my capacity grew to love and submit.

This is what I was talking about in the OP, how our struggles can make us more of who we are, and if we allow it extend our ability to feel without fear... And how D/s-M/s can be a part of that process for some of us.

What strikes me about what you say about your Master is that he has just showed you, or guided you to the answers that you needed to find for yourself. He has not told you who you are seemingly, just held up the mirror so you could see the strong and beautiful person you are... and although he did it for his own reasons, you have benefitted too and gotten what you wanted, which was being who you are....

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/19/2007 6:40:49 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 34

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 6:46:25 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

MasterFireMaam

Yes. The saying is: What we resist, persists.

Exactly, this is a phrase I use all the time....smiles

quote:

mistoferin

Yes, I've struggled, been made to struggle and have found that coming through it to the other side is generally a catalyst for real growth

As I believe I stated before, we tend to value that which we work the hardest for

quote:

YourMissTress

Yes, I have created situations to give my submissives the opportunity to struggle and grow through that struggle. Whether or not they realized it at the time, afterwards the specifics were revealed to them. Sometimes the lesson was simply that they struggled when they didn't have to, sometimes it was to teach them that they were strong, smart, clever, resourcful enough to achieve a goal. And sometimes it was to see on which side of the fence they fell, did they try to dodge the lemons? or did they reach out to catch and grab them so that they could make lemonade? I know, cliche, but true.

Thank you for answering, this was exactly what I was wondering, if dominants did this.. sometimes it is probably the best way to educate someone, allowing them to teach themselves through their own hard work...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 35

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 1:58:17 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
What strikes me about what you say about your Master is that he has just showed you, or guided you to the answers that you needed to find for yourself. He has not told you who you are seemingly, just held up the mirror so you could see the strong and beautiful person you are... and although he did it for his own reasons, you have benefitted too and gotten what you wanted, which was being who you are....

This is true, yes. He held up that mirror and made me see the truth - be it good, bad, funny, beautiful, ugly, ridiculous - whatever. Once I could look at myself and say "OK I like that, but I don't like this..." I could accept the reality of "what is" and it was OK. Then I could decide who and what I wanted to be, or needed to be. He gave me the paintbrush and said "Go for it - choose your colors, choose your picture - what is it you want? Create it!" and then he guided the artist in creating the masterpiece that was in her mind. The funny thing is, he had his own vision for me but said I have painted beyond that. In my quest for discovery, I am constantly exclaiming, "What happens if we turn over this rock???" He guides me on my path to myself by whatever means he sees necessary. Sometimes it's by gently tossing me out of the nest saying "Fly!" and sometimes it's by grabbing the leash tightly, saying, "Heel." But he has never limited who I wanted and needed to become. And the most amazing thing to me is how fulfilled HE is in the results.

Edited to add: I think there was a comment on this thread (can't recall it exactly at the moment) about struggling in life lessons versus in growth as a submissive. In my particular case, the two go hand in hand. Since he owns, has a vested interest in, and has final say on all facets of my life, then my growth as a person most certainly affects my growth as his slave. The two go hand in hand. I am both slave and person and there is no separating the two. So what affects me as one, affects me as the other. That has always been the case in my slavery to him. Slave and woman are one and the same for me.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 11/19/2007 2:04:16 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 36

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 2:24:30 PM

charlotte12

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Joined: 5/9/2006
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I tend to approach life from a perspective similar to the rather cliche saying "everything happens for a reason." However it's not so much that i believe that everything that happens was engineered or is led by fate (minimizing personal responsibility.) I simply feel that something good can be taken from every single thing that happens in life. We may not recognize this good until months or years after if even ever but with this knowledge i am able to accept the struggles i face and that i see around me not as something i should avoid or regret later but as opportunities to learn something new about myself or others. I don't believe struggle should be sought for the sake of struggle (we can't force self discovery or awareness) but i do believe that there are things that can be found through struggle that are invaluable.

Juliaoceana and ownedgirlie. Much of what you said in the posts you have both made on this thread sound like the excitement and peace i have been discovering the last year or so. It is good to hear others express these thoughts as well because i often have a hard time expressing myself and i begin to feel that i must be the only one coming to these conclusions. It is both thrilling and humbling to see at least two other women with these thoughts. Thank you for sharing.

Now if only i could find out who this mystery s-type is that you both seem to have such wonderful conversations with.

_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 37

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 2:37:12 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

the main questions of my post remain unanswered...

Do dominants make their submissive struggle on purpose?

As a submissive have you benefitted from struggles that your dominant made for you?

Yes. M has made me struggle through things that to the *outside* world, seem pretty damn daft, meaningless and occasionally rather cruel. He knows his victim. He knows when I need to be challenged and he knows WHY.

I have enough on my plate in life (like most people) but the struggles and challenges they throw up, aren't the same at all. He chucks things at me that I CAN get through; that I survive. They don't create the same emotions or have the same impact.

Yes, I benefit from them, even after all this time.

He says I challenge him........

agirl

And yes again. I have always benefitted from it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 38

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 2:47:42 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

Juliaoceana and ownedgirlie. Much of what you said in the posts you have both made on this thread sound like the excitement and peace i have been discovering the last year or so. It is good to hear others express these thoughts as well because i often have a hard time expressing myself and i begin to feel that i must be the only one coming to these conclusions. It is both thrilling and humbling to see at least two other women with these thoughts. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you for the kind words. It is refreshing to come into contact with people who actually understand what I'm talking about, rather than those who think something is wrong with me because I look forward to the struggle, and who think submission should not include struggling. My submission does, and I welcome the benefit it brings me.

quote:

Now if only i could find out who this mystery s-type is that you both seem to have such wonderful conversations with.

Shhh, it's a mystery!!

(in reply to charlotte12)

Post #: 39

RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 3:04:41 PM

charlotte12

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Thank you for the kind words. It is refreshing to come into contact with people who actually understand what I'm talking about, rather than those who think something is wrong with me because I look forward to the struggle, and who think submission should not include struggling. My submission does, and I welcome the benefit it brings me.

Yes it took me a while to realize that the fact that i don't always want everything to be easy, that i want to pushed beyond where i want to go by someone i trust is not a bad thing. I need a Master who wants to push his slave into complete submission, not just submission "until it's too hard." Sure, there are people out there who want to push a slave past her limits but to find someone who can do this while also making me feel loved and valued at every step seemed...well..impossible. It is hard to explain to someone that i want the darkness and the light, that i don't even really see them as opposites, simply as two parts of our existence. Ugh, i don't know... it is still stuff i cannot quite explain so i tend to get all excited when someone else puts it into words. Master certainly seems to be this person for me. It seems you have found someone like that for you as well. I always enjoy your posts and find your way of embracing slavery and life to be quite inspiring.

Oh and don't worry the identity of this mystery s-type will never come to light. I have already found her and thrown her in a cage to hide her.

_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 40

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