Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/18/2007 11:47:20 PM)

Lately, it's been coming to light that the Bush Admininstration has ordered the NSA to conduct domestic spying.  The New York Times has brought more information to light.  However, at the Administration's [request/demand/?] for the story to be pulled "[for reasons of national security]", the Times held off the publication, then decided to publish a lighter version: the one we're going off of now.

Historically, the Bush's claim was that the program only tapped into calls coming from overseas into the US.

Currently..
The liberal take:
  • This program is vast, esscentially copying down the majority of net and phone track, to include phone calls, voice over IP, emails, file shares, etc.
  • This program is blantantly illegal and a violation of Americans' civil rights.
  • The telecommunication companies who violated their customers' rights by giving information over to the government should be allowed to face the over three dozen domestic spying suits brought against them.
  • Only through due process against participants in this system will we ever have even a hope of learning the true extent to which the government's domestic spying program went into Americans' rights.


The Administration's take:
  • The NSA is only tapping into those with ties to Al Queda or/and other terrorist networks.
  • This program is necessary to weed out terrorists for the safety of America.
  • It is legal via wartime and emergency powers of the Executive branch.
  • The telecommunications companies cooperating with the government's requests are to be commended, not sued; retroactive legal immunity for such companies is a must.
  • This program must remain secret for its continued effectivenes and the safety of Americans.



My question:
What's your take on this?  Does this all strike as: good or bad?; legal or illegal?; other thoughts?



Edit:  My own concerns editted out to avoid spinning this too much.  (Interested in the opinions and thoughts of others primarily.)




Termyn8or -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 6:15:41 AM)

All of us are living under admiralty maritime jurisdiction. Go down to your local courthouse and observe the gold fringe on the flag there. It has been that way for about 73 years.

That is when this country completed the transistion to a fiat currency. The country being completely broke is and was properly called an emergency, but the powers they siezed are not and never were proper.

Back then, a host of government agencies popped up, many of them incorporated in Delaware. Why are they incorporated ? This is a question posed by Father Coughlin on his radio shows until the Catholic church silenced him.

The People welcomed the new programs, they were hurting. They never thought the government would get so bloated. But it did. The income tax was perhaps two dollars a year, but you could get a subsidy or check to bail you out of trouble, save the family farm, even feed the family. They didn't realize that all that money was borrowed. But it was and we are still paying interest on it to this day.

But this is not even where it all started. The perversion of this country's monetary system started around the time of the civil war. What happened in 1933 was just the culmination of their efforts to do so. It was that point in time when we started borrowing all the money, and taxes just paid the interest.

So now, your house, car, in fact the road you drive it on, along with you yourself are now collateral for the trillions owed. You own nothing, you are considered property under this system, and property cannot own property. I put it that harshly because it is true, but it is a highly regarded secret within the circles of power.

We The Property must turn a profit for the powers that be, so we are given the illusion of freedom. But like any illusion, it eventually fades away. That is what is happening now. The government is beginning to flex it's mighty muscle, and being so powerful, they are making it known that they will kill all 300,000,000 of us if we step out of line. They are the boss, and if you don't like it, tough. That is what is going on.

So now they have the means, and they want to know what their property is saying and doing. They also feel free to regulate our lives in their own best interest.

Consider this; you have heard of prohibition right ? A long time ago. Let me ask whatever geniuses around here, lurking or not, why was prohibition a Constitutional amendment ?

Why didn't they simply legislate a law against alcohol drinking ? If they got enough moxie to push a friggin amendment, it should have been no sweat to simply pass a law.The reason is astoundingly clear to some.

The reason is that the Constitution did not authorize congress nor anyone in the government to invade your life and personal decisions in that way. They did not have the authority to tell the common Man whether he could drink, or take any drug he wants for that matter. It had to be a amendment.

They still do not have that authority, but have siezed power, and part of that process was the invokation of admiralty maritime jurisdiction. This was kept secret at the time, but it came out with the FOIA and by other means.

At the time people were paying attention to more pressing concerns such as feeding their families. Paying attention to the WPA and other programs that might be able to bail them out. What happened is that the US essentially did the equivalent of filing bankruptcy. What they did rather than default was (for the measly billions owed at the time) to collateralize everything in the country, and that includes every Man Woman and child, down to every blade of grass.

None of us owns anything, we simply "hold" it in good faith. People didn't realize this back then. It was like the government just got a credit card with no limit. Like getting an equity loan to pay off credit cards, the stupidest move possible. But everybody had their hand out, though admittedly at the time I am sure many of them had no choice.

Now their descendants must pay the bills, that's us. The problem is we are only paying interest, the principal never goes down, in fact it goes up. The people with their hands out now have much bigger hands. And then they use the money to buy influence and get more money.

You have heard the term "civil rights" I am sure. It is invoked from time to time in mainstream text and media. What are civil rights ? What happened to Constitutional rights ? That is mentioned alot more rarely these days.

But with no Constitution in effect, they have to maintain the appearance of freedom, so they bestow civil rights on you. And what they give, they can take away. That is because Constitutional rights are a thing of the past. We do not have them.

Note : Years ago they had to make an amendment to outlaw booze, why couldn't they just pass a law ? But now they can legislate you some civil rights any day of the week.

Something has changed.

So now the government can just do whatever they want. We are reduced to being serfs, which is worse than being a slave. (I don't mean that the good way). A slave owner wants his slaves healthy and make sure they get fed and seen by the vet when needed. A serf must tend to his own needs on the stipend given him.

How many people lost their house last year due to medical bills ? What are those rules for when the old folks go into a nursing home ? Must spend all their money first before they get any help. That is the rule is it not ?

A serf with the illusion of freedom will work to build. Possibly a house, some nice assets like cars and such. But once dead he has no use for any of it. His net worth goes to society in one form or another. Of course they get their grubby hands on it through a process known as probate. Sometimes the serf becomes beligerent, and the bossman will simply take away his goodies. The goodies that, even if he built them, he does not own. He is simply allowed to hold them.

So where does anybody get this crazy notion that we have a right to privacy ?

Hope I didn't wreck your day.

T




pahunkboy -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 6:46:24 AM)

- they are going to do what they want. the system is never wrong. there isnt too much point to fighting it.  just keep on keeping on, and hope to not get caught up in the madness.




farglebargle -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 7:45:18 AM)

quote:



The Administration's take:

* The NSA is only tapping into those with ties to Al Queda or/and other terrorist networks.


Impossible. The optical splitters used at AT&T sites ( as documented in the Klein deposition ) copy ALL TRAFFIC from the network backbone to the NSA room. ALL TRAFFIC means traffic not subject to a warrant.

quote:


* This program is necessary to weed out terrorists for the safety of America.


If you're going to discard the notion of being a Constitutional Republic, "A Nation of Law", the the Terrorists have already destroyed whatever America people would care to save. "Freedom and Liberty" cannot co-exist with "Surveillance and Secrets".

quote:


* It is legal via wartime and emergency powers of the Executive branch.


I do not see anything in the Iraq-AUMF authorizing the blanket surveillance of The People. Nor any other law.

And for "wartime powers" to be valid, I suspect you'd need a "Congressional Declaration of War", as under Art I, Sec 8, Clause 11 ONLY CONGRESS has that authority.

quote:


* The telecommunications companies cooperating with the government's requests are to be commended, not sued; retroactive legal immunity for such companies is a must.


I'm of the opinion that that would be prohibited by Article I, Sec 8, Clause 11, regarding ex-post-facto laws, however that's been seriously weakened as of late, so it's open to argument.

quote:


* This program must remain secret for its continued effectivenes and the safety of Americans.


"This program must remain secret" to cover up the crimes of the participants.

Fixed that for you.

The financial penalties for violating Section 222, include fines of up to $130,000 per day per violation, with a cap of $1.325 million per violation.

1,325,000,000 * 300,000,000 = 3.97500 × 10^17

USD $ 397,500,000,000,000,000

That's 397 Quadrillion dollars.






subrob1967 -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 7:46:24 AM)

This is nothing new, it's been going on for a lot longer that the last seven years.

Google "Sugar Grove WV", and you'll find that the NSA has had a listening post there since the early 70's.




pinksugarsub -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 12:14:02 PM)

Not to sound paranooid, but when i chat in Yahoo IM, i sometimes see a word highlighted and underlined with a little manifying glass in the box.  Such words include cards, weight and chemistry.  i cannot think of any explanation for this unless Yahoo is monitoring IMs.
 
pinksugarsub




CuriousLord -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 12:37:53 PM)

Yeah, Yahoo adds links to keywords.  I believe it's typically related to advertisements, and I'm not sure if it's recorded- though it certainly may be, which is a large part of my concern.  I have this violated feeling that all of my conversations online have been recorded.

If I recall correctly, I do believe Yahoo was among the organizations cited as turning over information to the US government, among many others.




popeye1250 -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:15:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yeah, Yahoo adds links to keywords.  I believe it's typically related to advertisements, and I'm not sure if it's recorded- though it certainly may be, which is a large part of my concern.  I have this violated feeling that all of my conversations online have been recorded.

If I recall correctly, I do believe Yahoo was among the organizations cited as turning over information to the US government, among many others.


CL, it was on the News last week that Yahoo turned over info on Chinese dissidents to the Communist Chinese government.




farglebargle -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:20:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yeah, Yahoo adds links to keywords. I believe it's typically related to advertisements, and I'm not sure if it's recorded- though it certainly may be, which is a large part of my concern. I have this violated feeling that all of my conversations online have been recorded.

If I recall correctly, I do believe Yahoo was among the organizations cited as turning over information to the US government, among many others.


Given the fact that AT&T is tapping the Internet at it's backbone locations, it's irrelevant WHO your ISP or other service provider is.

The Government is monitoring ALL of your IM conversations as they transit the internet between you and your ISP, and your ISP and your friend.





bipolarber -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:29:20 PM)

Okay, as it stands:

All domestic and international calls are recorded. The information taken is who is calling who, and for how long. These records are kept indefinitely. As such, anyone in the administration can call up this information on anyone. So, consider: someone decides to be a pain in the ass to the government. (say, like a Cindy Sheehan) They can now go back and check all their phone records... Oh! What's this? Our dissenter has been calling a phone sex line in their spare time! Sure, nothing illegal about that, nothing too damaging... except... 

At one of the rallies this hypothetical dissenter is speaking at, someone sidles up to them and says, "We know about your calls to 1-900-Big Tits... we suggest you stop speaking out about our policies overseas, or it will be "accidentally leaked" to the media. You may or may not get to keep your kids."

Thus, dissent is effectively squelched... just with the info we already know they have....

Or they could use it against political opponents.

Or they could use it to track networks of any group of people they don't happen to agree with... say like they were planning on cracking down on BDSM folk, as an election stunt. (Cleaning up America from those godless perverts! Vote for me!)

And now they want MORE....





CuriousLord -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:42:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

The information taken is who is calling who, and for how long.


Is this to say that they didn't record the actual calls?

Because, hell, let's face it.  That'd take a hell of a lot of storage capacity and computing power.  Still, that's what I took this to mean.

I think I'm somewhat less offended if they don't have logs of everything said.  Not to say it still isn't pretty bad, but the idea that they record all conversations is just plain creepy.




popeye1250 -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:48:48 PM)

That's why I don't use telephones.
I'm probably one of the few people who doesn't own one of those portable phones that everyone's walking around with.




farglebargle -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:48:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

The information taken is who is calling who, and for how long.


Is this to say that they didn't record the actual calls?

Because, hell, let's face it. That'd take a hell of a lot of storage capacity and computing power. Still, that's what I took this to mean.

I think I'm somewhat less offended if they don't have logs of everything said. Not to say it still isn't pretty bad, but the idea that they record all conversations is just plain creepy.


According to the Klein deposition in EFF v. AT&T, they're copying EVERYTHING transiting the network to the NSA.

That's *ALL* Voice and Data traffic. You don't tell an optical splitter to just give you traffic from a single IP address.

Makes you wonder what files they've compiled already, doesn't it? And with that in mind, isn't everyone's reluctance to hold the Bush Administration accountable under the law just a little easier to understand?

Stalin and Hitler would have given their nuts for this technology. Why bother sending people to the Camps, when you can just use a little blackmail in the right locations to keep people quiet.

And the ones who don't shut up? They go on the no-fly list, so they can't move around, hook up with others, and stir up trouble organizing a resistance.




CuriousLord -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 1:52:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yeah, Yahoo adds links to keywords.  I believe it's typically related to advertisements, and I'm not sure if it's recorded- though it certainly may be, which is a large part of my concern.  I have this violated feeling that all of my conversations online have been recorded.

If I recall correctly, I do believe Yahoo was among the organizations cited as turning over information to the US government, among many others.


CL, it was on the News last week that Yahoo turned over info on Chinese dissidents to the Communist Chinese government.


Yeah, though I remember them citing being rather reluctant to do so, spoke out against having to do it, and started a fund for the Chinese dissidents.  Because, when it comes down to it, they may've had little choice without sacarficing themselves.

From that to turning over US citizens' conversations as a whole without even putting up a fight that came to the public's attention, though.. it's just so much of a stretch to have to even try to consider.




bipolarber -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 2:02:07 PM)

My understanding is that what is recorded is the phone number of origin, the phone number they are calling, and how long the phone call lasts. To record all the content, they would need a VAST amount of storage space... I don't think they have that available to them... yet.

Once they find a person of interest (for whatever reason, Homeland Security concerns, blackmail, or just because they think they are attractive) They can easily begin recording the content.

The thing is, they are getting rid of having to justify to a judge, who they are listening to. They are eliminating oversight. Abuses will eventually run rampant.

I hate to sound paranoid, but I can see this easily turning into a situation not unlike 1984, or THX-1138, where there are "monitors" whose job it is to watch your activities and several other people's at the same time. We're already pretty much under 24/7 surveilance... (CCTV, security cameras, webcams, vidphones, facial recognition scanners) all they need is a little more tech to unify it so anyone they desire can be tracked at will.




farglebargle -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 2:08:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

My understanding is that what is recorded is the phone number of origin, the phone number they are calling, and how long the phone call lasts. To record all the content, they would need a VAST amount of storage space... I don't think they have that available to them... yet.


What's a 500GB harddrive cost these days? Maybe you should peruse the high-end offerings in SAN and FAN systems. Disk space is cheap, and isn't the concern it once was. The entire conversation is ALREADY digitzed, so the additional overhead of storing that data is minimal.

quote:


The thing is, they are getting rid of having to justify to a judge, who they are listening to. They are eliminating oversight. Abuses will eventually run rampant.


Past tense. They've ALREADY gotten rid of the judge. They ALREADY are ignoring FISA and the Constitution.

quote:


I hate to sound paranoid, but I can see this easily turning into a situation not unlike 1984, or THX-1138, where there are "monitors" whose job it is to watch your activities and several other people's at the same time. We're already pretty much under 24/7 surveilance... (CCTV, security cameras, webcams, vidphones, facial recognition scanners) all they need is a little more tech to unify it so anyone they desire can be tracked at will.


Once that would have been paranoid. Now it's prescient.





CuriousLord -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 2:16:56 PM)

From an Engineer point of view, I was wondering how they could record so much, from either the Internet or phone calls alone.

So what do you think they're looking for?  Just terrorists?  Or other major criminals, such as murderers?  Civil crimes, such as high-up executives of major corporations luandering money?  Medorate crimes, such as drug trafficing?  Sexual/online crimes such as illegal porn producers/holders?  Online predators?  People talking about drug use on IM's?  People downloading copyright'd material illegally, such as music?  Or, perhaps, things that arne't illegal, but.. Disconent citizens?  Civil rights activists?  Etc.?

Hell, at times like this, I'm really damn glad I was never into music enough to get a P2P program to download any of it.

Actually, let's say someone did download music illegally.  Would the NSA's evidence (assuming that they did have records of it) be admissible, or thrown due to violating the expectation to privacy or some other reason?

Yeah, it is a very scary thing, since most of my generation uses the net and has, at some point or another, downloaded music, mentioned drug use, or something else that could be used against them.  This generation could be held hostage, or tormented by a zealot, should such an archieve exist.




angelikaJ -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 3:49:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

- they are going to do what they want. the system is never wrong. there isnt too much point to fighting it.  just keep on keeping on, and hope to not get caught up in the madness.



that is a very valid way of looking at it...but I offer up another option.

This will happen for as long as we allow it to happen.
It seems as though many of us object in principle but also feel powerless over "the powers that be".
In my opinion...that is because we do not accept the strength we have in numbers...2 people are stronger than 1; 4 people are stronger than 2; 16 are stronger than 4.

The ideals that were put forth in The Declaration of Independence and the provisions made in the original U.S. Constitution were not made under the condition that we only feel safe and secure.

Everytime we complain about the freedoms that are being taken away, instead of taking a more active approach with like minded individuals we leave the door a bit more open...the door is not going to close until we say ENOUGH.

Jenn




Termyn8or -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 3:53:07 PM)

So much for the political. Now for the technical.

CL you should know about this if you are an aspiring engineer. The technology they now have is beyond what anyone suspects.

They can implant you in the heel, or during any injection with a tracking device. They could require it, or do it without your knowledge.

Using spectography, along with near and far infrared and long and short UV they can spot one pot plant in a whole field of corn.

They can pick up sound from inside a house or building by bouncing a laser beam off a window, and that technology has existed for over twenty years.

With a special camera they can see through your clothes. Does anyone remember the Sony camcorders that got recalled ? Guess who got them.

If you want to rally together and have a riot or something they have banks of ultrasonic tweeters which when fed with the right waveform can immobilize a whole angry mob.

No sane person fights agaiunst technology like that, and that is only what I happen to know about. I'm sure there is more, much more. Of course there are stories about mind reading machines, even mind control. They could be true or not. There are scare stories all over the place, but I do not generally believe them.

If simply what I know is true actually is true, and I know the scientific principles involved, we are already at a loss, that is in an inferior position. Even with our vast numbers, they simply have nothing to worry about.

With no Constitution in force, and criminals running the government, we are fucked. We are so fucked that the light from fucked takes 12 minutes to reach us.

There is another thing, I have a concept, a new invention that would be like a tricorder on the old Star Trek. I have envisioned how it will work, the priciples of operation in full. I will not share it.

I don't just mean I will not share it on the forums, I mean I will not share it with the world. This because I know it would be perverted for the advancement of the PTB. I am not kidding, this could work, but the potential for abuse is too great.

Because of the way things are, that idea will die with me. But don't worry, someone else will come up with it. In the future you will be safe, and sorry. There is nothing we can do about it. They won't even have to watch you try to commit suicide eventually, they will have read your mind and be there before you even start.

I am not religious at all, but some words from Revelations keep coming to mind : "Men shall seek death and not find it".

T




Politesub53 -> RE: Domestic Spying Program- Opinions? (11/19/2007 4:10:04 PM)

Well people you are not alone, its the same here in the UK. All being done in the name of national security and details being hushed up as its not in the public interest for us ( ironically the public ) to know whats going on. Its possible in the UK for them to pinpoint where a mobile phone is to within ten yards.  




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