Abuse vs. discipline (Full Version)

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IndigoDadesi -> Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 1:56:32 AM)

As a newer member to the community here I am still learning the ins and outs of being a good Domme. I have always looked at my role as a way to fufill my slave's needs (as well as my own) and from a position where I can help my slave succeed and be happy in his day to day life.

My behavior towards him seems to have backfired however. Instead of encouraging him to better himself as my slave and in general, I have belittled him and crushed his ego and made him unhappy.

I want to get the input of other Dommes about what works for them in their relationships. How do you manage to be firm, yet encouraging? How do you discipline and not belittle your sub at the same time?

Any other thoughts/creative criticism about my situation here are appreciated. I want nothing but the best for my slave.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 5:16:41 AM)

Indigo,

First of all, welcome to the boards. I want to commend you first for coming here and asking this question. I have to tell you realising there is an issue to work out is a great first step at getting the issue resolved.

It's hard, without an in-depth conversation, to be able to pinpoint what is unbalanced in your dynamic. And even then, I would not consider myself qualified to offer an opinion. But I can however share with you some of the models that I have based some of my dynamics on.

Now I'm not a huge fan of behavioural psychology, but it is the foundation of a lot of the models that we see today. So rather then go into complex models, I'll present you first with this one and if you find it useful, perhaps I can offer you other resources. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the behavioural psychological model of operant conditioning. I think most of us are, without knowing of it officially. Essentially, operant conditioning is when you form an association between a behaviour and a consequence.

- Something Good can start or be presented, so behaviour increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)
- Something Good can end or be taken away, so behaviour decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)
- Something Bad can start or be presented, so behaviour decreases = Positive Punishment (P+)
- Something Bad can end or be taken away, so behaviour increases = Negative Reinforcement (R-)

Many will believe that reinforcement helps with building discipline whereas punishment, depending on how severe, can lead to abuse. It is a simplistic look at the situation, but I think it does permit us to break conditioning at least into 4 quadrants and is a first step at looking at our behaviours and dynamics.

Perhaps the following resources might help as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

I hope this helps. I would say however, that if you could give us a concrete example, it might enable many here to help you shed light on the situation.

- LA



nella -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 5:46:23 AM)

Also what aboute talking wht him. i am not a Domenant bu i felt like posting to this tread. Perhaps he himself can shed some light on why is is feeling unhappy. Perhaps it has nothing to do whit you, he can forexample be generaly depressed, or perhaps there is somthing wrong that is out of your control.



Niran -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 9:10:09 AM)

Indigo,

You came to the right place. There is a lot of information here and a lot of knowledge. Our opinions will be diverse, that hardest part will be choosing what works for you. The first thing that I found with e is consistancy and follow through. Those two things are paramount in training. Communication is a third. There is a thing called a BDSM checklist. I know that some here hate them, others here love them. I found it to be helpful, to learn what e was expecting. It also helps when I start running dry for scene material ;) I spent the first month of this dynamic sitting on my couch, nose to the screen. Some sites I found helpful were "Real Women Dont Do Housework, CastleRealm, this one, Literotica, and Fetish Alliance. The biggest hurdle we had was understanding eachother's expectations. e is not into verbal humiliation at all. It has a very negative effect, which is good for me, as I am not good at giving it. LA gave you some good pointers in understanding development. I use a lot of reinforcement technique, as it works best for us. If e does well during the day, he gets to brush my hair and night, and sleep in the bed without clothes. If he is forgetful, or not attentive, whatever, he will have to sleep in pajamas, which he hates. If he is rotten and testing me, etc, we both will wear pajamas. They dont really bother me, but he hates it, and the message is that I do not want his skin touching mine. See where I am going?

Hope this helps. I look forward to seeing how it all works out,

Niran



IndigoDadesi -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 1:50:29 PM)

Thank you to all three of you for responding to my question. I really appreciate your input. I really like the simplification of positive vs negative re-enforcement and/or punishment. It gives me some idea of how to lay my relationship foundation, so to speak. kc and I have been talking a lot about various issues that we have both brought into our relationship and I think that working this personal bagage out will also have an effect on the stability of our relationship.

I personally have brought a lot of bagage from my family life and how my parents tended to argue before the divorced. I am always the first to give up and threaten to leave. Alway the first to be distructively critical and tell him hes not good enough. And usually the first to lose my patience during an arguement. he has recently told me that he has felt afraid of expressing his opinions/beliefs/goals/etc. to me for fear that I will disapprove, so theres another aspect that we need to work on.

There are a lot of things we are dealing with right now, some having nothing specifically to do with the D/s side of our relationship (if the two can infact be separated).

I never intended to treat him like that or be that kind of person so now that Ive realized how much I screwed up I need to figure out how to change that.

I want him to know what to expect of me, what I expect of him as a slave and, most of all, I want him to feel comfortable and happy with me.

If anyone has anymore input maybe you could let me know what training you went through, what stages and what difficulties you have experience with your own subs. hes my first so I really dont know what to expect in training him. I guess Im looking for a little guidance.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to post. Im thinking hard about all your suggestions.



BeachMystress -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 9:18:33 PM)


I'm not in the mood to write much on this topic and would usually just have moved on.. but I have a link that might help you. Abuse or BDSM - How to tell the difference



GentleLady -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/10/2005 11:52:40 PM)

quote:

I never intended to treat him like that or be that kind of person so now that Ive realized how much I screwed up I need to figure out how to change that.

Hello IndigoDadesi and welcome to the boards. My hat is off to You for recognizing that there are problems and where those lie. You have taken the first steps to overcoming them already. The advice LadyAngelika gave You is excellent and will help a lot both in working with Your submissive and examing Your own responses to things.

Advice would be to be patient...be self-aware of Your own triggers and response patterns...watch for the things that make You glow inside and the things that make him glow (kinks or needs).....communicate openly and do not be afraid of saying anything to each other....practice thinking and acting instead of just reacting....learn to listen to each other.

I think the most important thing I learned about Myself was that it was okay to be Me and in control....to be able to step outside of the box society had cast Me in. That led to self-confidence and feelings of inner peacefulness. That led to better control.

One of the things I found hard was to trust My submissive to tell Me what was going on in his head and how he was really feeling about something. I believed that his answers would be slanted towards saying what he thought I wanted to hear and to what he thought was safe to say. I needed to practice being totally non-judgemental about whatever he said and non-reactive. I know that I need time to process what I have been told and to examine My real feelings on the subject instead of giving into the first knee-jerk reaction I feel.

I am sure that You will gets scads of advice on these forums and most of it will be really good. Take what fits with You and use it.

Gentle Lady



IndigoDadesi -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/11/2005 2:26:45 AM)

BeachMystress: Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post rather than moving on right away. I appreciate the link. It allows me to evalute my behavior to my slave on a more specific level.

GentleLady: Thank you for all the advice you are offering. Im also glad that you mentioned your own need to take time to evaluate a situation since I also need to do that when facing a difficult situation. Im glad Im not the only one who has trouble with these things. I like your advise especially about being patient. I think that is so important to work on.

Again I just want to thank everyone who responded for their support and advice.



Oumae -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/11/2005 12:17:22 PM)

I agree with what has been said, positive reinforcement and patience. Communication needs to be two way so ensure your sub understands what it is you want and expect. If you do feel there is cause for punishment explain the reason to your sub and remember that punishment is supposed to finish any bad feelings there are over an incident for both the sub and the Dom/me.

Oumae



KarbonCopy -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/14/2005 1:22:16 AM)

*likes the idea of positive re-enforcement*



LadyAngelika -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/14/2005 6:51:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KarbonCopy

*likes the idea of positive re-enforcement*

Me too. I find I get so much more out of it.

- LA



KarbonCopy -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/14/2005 10:15:08 AM)

What else can you tell her, that would be good for *her slave* lol

Ooh you should tell her that he should get ice-cream EVERY day ^__^ I like that one too.

Or a Pepsi a day keeps the cancer away.



TiNeedsHouseboy -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/16/2005 10:26:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IndigoDadesi
I personally have brought a lot of bagage from my family life and how my parents tended to argue before the divorced. I am always the first to give up and threaten to leave. Alway the first to be distructively critical and tell him hes not good enough. And usually the first to lose my patience during an arguement. he has recently told me that he has felt afraid of expressing his opinions/beliefs/goals/etc. to me for fear that I will disapprove, so theres another aspect that we need to work on.

I've been mulling over how to address your initial request. I wasn't certain how to reply, as I had a feeling that there was more to your question. The mystery began to de-cloak with the above post.

Other people have posted very good advice for moving a D/s relationship forward. I'd like to be a tad more conservative and cautious on your behalf, if I may.

As I see it, before you can successfully cultivate a burgeoning D/s rapport, you need to sweep your inner self clean of ghosts from your past. Unlike Dr. Phil McGraw, who endorses instant solutions, I can't offer an immediate magical resolution.

You're clearly bright and articulate. You are your strongest ally and resource to problem solving the turbulence of shadow worlds that lie within. Figuring out how to free yourself emotionally from your parents' difficult past is a significant challenge.

Generally, in such situations, while our brains grasp why such behaviors are "bad," our hearts and guts lag behind. Getting control of the emotional side will help you take control of the inner you, enhancing your happiness and confidence. That, in turn, will pave a path to maximizing your role as a dominant woman who blends well with her slave's needs to please her. Pragmatically speaking, how can he surrender to your control if your control is out of sorts?... plus, you're feeling guilty about it.

I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of behavioral rewards and corrections. Since each of us is our own #1 advocate, you owe it to yourself to initiate self-directed behavioral corrections. My recommended start point: begin by learning to contend with the negative components of your parents' marriage that affect your adult relationships. To that end, have you ever given any thought to talking with a kink aware psychotherapist? This can facilitate your self-search, as it's quite easy to get bogged down, wondering which way to turn; a therapist can serve as an objective mirror of your dilemmas.

Think of it this way: You're engaged in a journey of self-exploration. Every good explorer takes along a compass. Just as an explorer of uncharted geography can accidentally lose his compass by slipping on steep terrain, or sliding into an unseen bog, your self-journey can lead you to unsettling paths that must be traveled before you can reach a clear path. A therapist is trained to know when (s)he should help steady your grasp on that compass, when to hold onto it for you, and when to hand it back to you and declare you've reached safe harbor. In short, (s)he's there to help prevent you from wandering too far off the beaten path and getting lost in your darkness -- which can become so obscured by storm clouds that you can't even spot the North Star to facilitate navigation.

I can't stress the following enough:
A person does not need to be bonkers or pathologically dysfunctional to see a psychotherapist.

It's simply a useful tool to facilitate your quest to maximizing the dominant women who lies within you. Besides, it's the 21 century and it's chic have a shrink. <grins>

I took the liberty of checking the Kink Aware Professionals roster in Alberta. Only one psychotherapist is listed. I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. His credentials reflect a practitioner who's a psychiatric social worker. Your first session is free, if you want to see if you feel you're comfortable trying to work with him. If you don't feel like he's the therapist for you, psychotherapists are accustomed to being asked for referrals; you can feel free request one. Given the nature of the issues you're struggling with, you wouldn't have to be limited to a kink aware professional.

If you decide to contact this therapist, his info is:

Edward Sandberg, MSW, RSW (Alberta), #201 10008 - 109 Street, Edmonton, Alberta, T5J 1M4, 780-707-2115, fax: 780-707-1404, [email protected]
Individual, couple (and other relationship groupings) and group counseling. I work primarily with adults and sometimes with adolescents. I have experience working in a wide range of lifestyles, including B/D, S/M, Fetish and D/s. Single, or in a relationship if kink is part of your life let's work together in a safe, supportive, non judgmental environment to find your answers. Fees: $95 per hour. Sliding scale to a minimum of $60 per hour. First session; half hour free consultation.

Beyond blazing a trail to your inner Domme, you'll also need to have regularly scheduled open discussion with your partner/slave.... same time each week.... plus he should feel free to request additional time, if he feels the need to talk and it won't keep until your weekly communication session. During these sessions, you should both feel free to speak what's on your mind. Your partner/slave can say anything, so long as he's respectful.

I also have two Jack Rinella articles I'd like to recommend. Ignore the fact that Jack is a bisexual Switch, with a preference for SM and men and being a Dom. His advice can often be given to any vanilla couple because he "gets it" about what makes or breaks relationships. BTW, if you enjoy Jack's articles, you can sign up on his site for his free e-zine under Kinky Info.




kinkyslaveboysub -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/17/2005 8:24:21 PM)

[8|]
ok, I was checking out these boards and found this post. Maybe ya'all can shed some light on me please.

(a little background info)

I was sexually molested and raped by my priest from the ages of 14-15 and then again, coherced at the age of 20 in to anal sex 5x. My mother died when I was 4 and stepmother was an verbally abusive drunk. I am bipolar(manic-depresive) and have BPD (borderline personality disorder) with 10 doucmented suicde attempts.

The Mistress that I have, we engage in a lot of strap-on scenes. It has progresivly become more and more intense. at my request of raping my ass with a 10" (jeff stryker) strap-on while verbally humiliating and demeaning and putting me down. She is new to this and likes doing it quite well. She laughs at me and calls me names telling me how pathetic I am while pounding my ass as hard as she can for 1-3 hours depending on her mood. Are all of us subs/slaves like this because of childhood traumas?. Now, for those who don't know Jeff Stryker, it's one freakin huge fat strap-on. Am I setting myself up for further emotional abuse. Am I using this as a comfort zone because of my childhood issues? Am I having her abuse me? Is this the right kind of thing that I should be doing? Even if it hurts I tell her not to stop, she ties me to the bed, gags me with her panties and a tie tied around my mouth. She does not want to hurt me and is only doing what i ask. she would pull out and use smaller if hurt before but lately it has progressivley become rougher.[image][/image]



GentleLady -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/18/2005 12:22:03 AM)

Hello kinkyslaveboysub

Your profile says you are searching for a Mistress and are uncollared yet your post talks about your Mistress. Which is it?

Gentle Lady



MistressStar -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/18/2005 7:37:46 AM)

Kinkyslaveboysub has been a friend with benefits more than anything. He is not collared. We are friends who are helping eachother out mutually with our exploration. He calls me his Mistress because I am the only one at this time that he is seeing. We are not soulmates and he is yearning for a true soulmate. any questions regarding him can either be refered to me and I would happily respond or you can mail him directly. He is a well mannered 37 year old man who has been through a lot in his life. So if any of you do seek him out, be kind, loving and nuturing to him. He is faithful, loyal and great guy to hang around.

MistressStarNC



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/18/2005 12:04:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkyslaveboysub
I was sexually molested and raped by my priest from the ages of 14-15 and then again, coherced at the age of 20 in to anal sex 5x. My mother died when I was 4 and stepmother was an verbally abusive drunk. I am bipolar(manic-depresive) and have BPD (borderline personality disorder) with 10 doucmented suicde attempts.
Are you in therapy to work out these issues, and medication to balance your moods? I sincerely hope you are.
quote:

The Mistress that I have, we engage in a lot of strap-on scenes. It has progresivly become more and more intense. at my request of raping my ass with a 10" (jeff stryker) strap-on while verbally humiliating and demeaning and putting me down. She is new to this and likes doing it quite well. She laughs at me and calls me names telling me how pathetic I am while pounding my ass as hard as she can for 1-3 hours depending on her mood. Are all of us subs/slaves like this because of childhood traumas?. Now, for those who don't know Jeff Stryker, it's one freakin huge fat strap-on. Am I setting myself up for further emotional abuse. Am I using this as a comfort zone because of my childhood issues? Am I having her abuse me? Is this the right kind of thing that I should be doing? Even if it hurts I tell her not to stop, she ties me to the bed, gags me with her panties and a tie tied around my mouth. She does not want to hurt me and is only doing what i ask. she would pull out and use smaller if hurt before but lately it has progressivley become rougher.[image][/image]
Sounds like you need to stop playing with hurtful memories, sort out your psychological problems/issues before you proceed re live painful memories by entering pariticipating in this lifestyle that can replay your abuse scenes. It sounds to me like you need help; I would have a huge difficulty playing with someone who is so hurt.. M



kinkyslaveboysub -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/18/2005 6:09:06 PM)

I am on meds but not in therapy. Our bahavior healt center here in charlotte is not know to be the best help. I went for a long time with their therapist and got nowhere. However, when I did have Insurance I found a great therapist and she was helping me alot. once the insurance stopped I have not seen her for 4 months now.

thank you BlkTallFullfig



KarbonCopy -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/19/2005 1:11:25 AM)

You know to be perfectly honest, I dont think that traumas or lack there of, has anything to do with our roles.

I mean in some cases, I might understand how someone being constantly beat down, could inspire either a rebellious Dom/me personality, or a broken submissivenes but I dont think that its an explination that we can rely on.

Althought I do think that mabey looking at some of the government provided therapy might help with some of your issues, but then again, Psychologists can be, well reletively full of shit.

and like what TiNeedsHouseboy said, a Kink friendly psychologist could help you alot.

Just a thought.



kinkyslaveboysub -> RE: Abuse vs. discipline (8/19/2005 6:50:05 AM)

Karboncopy,

Thank you for you words of wisdom. I have tried the government behavior helath and they are "full of shit" for sure. I need to investigate for a kink friendly psychologist. I know charlotte is very closed minded here in the bible belt but up by Greensboro and Raleigh-Durham people are much more receptive. Thanks again.

with all due respect.

a.t



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