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Babybass -> Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:14:18 AM)

I am not sure where to start with this - but my own recent experiences and also a thread in the 'Ask a sub/slave' forum have prompted my thoughts here. I have always identified as submissive...many Doms that have taken the time to know me have commented that i am more slave than sub. I have my own thoughts on the matter and it is a topic at the centre of some very deep ponderings at the moment - it causes me a lot of confussion! My question to Masters, and all who wish to reply, is this: Can you, with experience, tell if someone is more slave than sub - and if so, how? What is it about that person that makes you think that they are a slave rather than a sub?




mistoferin -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:21:44 AM)

Does it really matter what label you attach to yourself? So long as you are being you and you partner with someone who likes who "you" are?




RRafe -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:28:24 AM)

It makes absolutley no difference to me.

Bring me fun and happiness, and it's enough.




Rule -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:28:25 AM)

Lacking an active profile and neither having any other information that may offer a look into your psyche, only a wild guess is possible. Since you identify as a sub, you likely are a sub and not a slave.




ctrlaltdelete -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:29:58 AM)

For most part in the online venue portion of BDSM, you do not even know if someone is actually the gender, age, or even orientation that they profess to be and portray in their profiles. How, on top of that, anyone is supposed to be able to (or how they can claim to be able to) tell whether you have more of a sub or a slave propensity - that is clearly beyond me. Maybe some clairvoyant gifts and higher powers are in play here.

Only thing that ever will matter is what you will be to and for your Dom/Master and/or what side he can bring out and foster in you.

The rest (of others' opinions) is about as useless as tits on a fish when it comes to you, your needs and the label that will define your "nature".

Edited for shits and giggles and typos.




Babybass -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:34:30 AM)

Rule, my profile is inactive as i felt i needed space and time to think. It is a temporary situation. My question is not if people thing I am a sub or a slave - that is for me to decide and of no real importance - my question was if a Master can identify a slave when she identifies as a sub. I think it is because it has been pointed out to me on many occassions and i am just wondering how these 'Masters' seem to think they know. I have come to the conclussion that it is because either they are looking for a slave and cannot find one or they have had enough experience of both to know the difference. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on that issue. Thank you!




laurell3 -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:41:22 AM)

Well many will tell you there is a "slave mentality" of accepting another's will in all areas of your life, allowing another to set your limits, etc.  However, in reality, there is really no one set definition of what sub/slave even mean and if you search the forums here for the threads on this topic (there are many of them) you will find what is one person's sub is another's slave and vice versa.  So yes, I guess they can identify that you have mental aspects of what a sub/slave means to them, however, it's not paticularly relevant in any universal sense what label you have except that it distinguishes you from being top/bottom/switch.  Sometimes such conversations are merely a Dom puffing up for you about his knowlege and your lack of it.  The only person that truly knows you is YOU.  You seem to know that.

I think you have the right approach, you decide what's best and workable for you and find somone that's compatible with that.  I agree however, the use of terms/labels and the amount they vary can be confusing.




Babybass -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:52:22 AM)

Thank you laurell3 - that does help! I think it has been bothering me as i have always seen a difference between sub and slave - for me anyway, and i have been struggling to decide where i fit in - what feels right to me. It has been a bit confussing to have people say to me 'you are a slave and i can tell because....'! It helps to remember that it may be that i have characteristics that they identify as being slave but these same characteristics may not be in my definition of slave. I know what i am - i cannot at this moment define it - but at least i know!!




Rule -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 11:03:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Babybass
my question was if a Master can identify a slave when she identifies as a sub.

It is possible. One of my two admirers identified herself as a sub. That threw me off track for a while, but after some correspondence I realized that she was not a submissive, but a slave.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Babybass
I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on that issue.

If you are a natural slave or a natural submissive, you will realize what your nature is eventually.
 
Perhaps you are something else, if indeed you are in between. I am curious about in betweens; they are not quantified and qualified in my model of the various human minds.
 
If one does not know, then one is not qualified to know. It is as simple as that.

Edited to correct some spelling errors and typographical errors, as usual. And because this is my 2000th post, though the ice is thin; will it ever freeze thick again?




Babybass -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 11:15:41 AM)

Rule, thank you for your reply - it interests me....so is it posible to be submissive by nature but slave-like once you have submitted. Or is that just the difference between an owned and unowned slave?




RRafe -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 11:19:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Babybass

Rule, thank you for your reply - it interests me....so is it posible to be submissive by nature but slave-like once you have submitted. Or is that just the difference between an owned and unowned slave?


It helps if one has actually had real life interactions with a submissive woman, rather than just theorized about it online.[:@]




Archer -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 11:28:21 AM)

Well I fall into the Owned vs Not Owned camp (with the caviat that OWNED means something along the lines of the textbook definition not the romanitisized crap that floats around the net with all the hearts and flowers)

If you are a person who would thrive in the situation of being owned then you have the potential for slavery, if the situation of being owned would destroy you but submitting to some people would make you thrive then you are submissive.

Now as to can a Master see the potential for a person to thrive as a slave when they themselves don't?
Some can see it in many some can see it in a few, some slave candidates are easy to see it in and others are tougher to tell.

That said in 80% of the cases I hear it used (Number randomly pulled out of my butt) it's an attempt to manipulate the situation much along the lines of a fortune teller or psycic con artist. It also lends itself to the slave is better than submissive argument that is so badly flawed in my view. If I tell you you have the potential to be "More" than what you see as your potential then I become a more attractive option in your mind.




Rule -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 11:46:30 AM)

Sensible, Archer.
 
RRafe, there are plenty of people that never have seen the sea that can tell one that it is full of salt water. One does not have to have ever fired nor seen a gun to know that a bullet traveling at 200 to 800 metres per second is somewhat destructive.
 
In any case I had an extremely brief relation with a submissive who told me two things: 1. do not love me, 2. I am not a slave. I was rather wet behind the ears in those days, so I concluded that there was nothing there for me and cowardly ditched her. Then she was furious.
If I had known then what I know now - I had never heard of a submissive, nor did she tell me - we would still be together.




Rule -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 11:55:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Babybass
Rule, thank you for your reply - it interests me....so is it possible to be submissive by nature but slave-like once you have submitted. Or is that just the difference between an owned and unowned slave?

I do not know, Bb. I lack information about in betweens - other than ordinary humans. There are a few vague indications that you may be a natural slave, but as I have nearly no information about the configuration of your mind I cannot tell.
 
Natural submissives and natural slaves are superficially very similar, but intrinsically very different.




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 12:05:33 PM)

When my girl anne and I were getting to know one another, we compared definitions. What she was calling a submissive was what I was calling a slave. she now goes by slave girl. When you find someone who matches you, ask them what each means and adapt accordingly. Or, define yourself. There's not set rule or definition.

Master Fire




MoreBitaTruble -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 12:17:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Babybass

Can you, with experience, tell if someone is more slave than sub - and if so, how? What is it about that person that makes you think that they are a slave rather than a sub?


For myself, I discovered my truth when I accepted that I had lost the ability to choose. Master saw it long before I did and I fought it for a long time. I have a problem with someone 'telling' me what to see though.. I have to see for myself what the truth is before I can accept it in my reality.

As for being able to tell if someone else is or is not a slave, only in so far as what they are fits into my particular definitions of slave. Mostly, if someone identifies as a slave I'm comfortable accepting that's how they view themselves even if I wouldn't view them that way based on my own subjective experiences. They are a slave in their universe even if they would not be a slave in mine .. and the reverse is true. In my universe, I am a slave, but I may not be a slave in the universe of someone else and that's okay. No one defines the universe in which I live but me. Even Master cannot tell me what I am .. he can only recognize what I am - as must I. I mean, I can tell myself I'm a winged horse 1000x a day, but that doesn't make it so.

Celeste




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 2:26:33 PM)

Also remember plenty of doms will try to seduce you by complimenting you and saying how awesome you are.  Since most people in the scene think "slave" is more awesome than "sub" (and willing to give blow jbos more easily) then they will try to get your attention by saying that's who you are- it's a challenge to yourself, it's a way to get you thinking about what THEY said, and it makes you think they are actually observing you.

Now, some people really ARE, but most are just playing an old game.

For the ones who really are, what they are really saying is "Based on my frame of reference, your behaviors indicate to me that you would typically fall under the generalized concept of what most people label "slave."

So in order to evaluate the statement, you have to know their frame of reference, the typical generalized concept of slave, how YOU actually define slave and whether you think the person is full of shit or not.




ItalianSMistress -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/21/2007 10:59:57 PM)

I came across this chart a while back and I found it explianed it all very well: (personally I choose slaves that are about a level 7, LOL)



** 9 Levels of Submission **
 

Within the S/M subculture, different people use the words "submissive and slave" to mean many different things. When submissives say "I want to be your slave," sometimes they mean only that they want to be tied up and whipped. Many professional dominants routinely refer to their (usually not very genuinely submissive clients) as "slaves." At the other extreme, there are people who want to be full-time personal servants, and who truly want to exist solely for their Dom(me)'s use, pleasure and convenience. And there are many shades in between these two extremes.



1. The outright non-submissive masochist or Kinky Sensualist
Not into servitude, humiliation or giving up control; just pain and/or spiced-up sensuality, on the masochist's own terms and for the masochist's own direct pleasure (i.e. turned on solely/_toply by one's own bodily sensations rather than by being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism).

2. Pseudo-submissive non-slave
Not into even playing "slave," but into other "submissive" role-playing, e.g. schoolteacher scenes, infantilism, "forced" transvestitism. Usually into humiliation, but NOT into servitude, even in play. Dictates the scene to a large degree.

3. Pseudo-submissive play slave
Likes to play at being a slave; likes to feel subservient; may in some cases like to feel one is being "used" to gratify partner's sadism; may even really serve the dominant in some ways, but only on the "slave's" own terms. Dictates the scene to a large degree; often fetishistic (e.g. foot worshippers).

4. True submissive non-slave
Really gives up control (only temporarily and within agreed-upon limits), but gets her/his _top satisfaction from aspects of submission other than serving or being used by the dominant. Usually turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up responsibility. Doesn't dictate the scene except in very general terms, but still seek _toply her/his own direct/ pleasure (rather than getting one's pleasure _toply from pleasing the dominant).

5. True submissive play slave
Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets _top satisfaction from serving/being used by dominant-but only for FUN purposes, usually erotic. May/may not be into pain. If so, is turned on by pain indirectly, i.e. enjoys being the object of one's partner's sadism, on which the submissive places very few requirements or restrictions.

6. Uncommitted short-term but more than play semi-slave
Really gives up control (usually within limits); wants to serve and be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non erotic as well as fun/erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the mood. May even act as a full- time slave for, say, several days at a time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed upon several days). May or may not have long-term relationship with one's Mistress, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over when she will serve.

7. Part-Time consensual - but real slave
Has an ongoing commitment to an owner/slave relationship and regards oneself as the dominant's property at all times. Wants to obey and please dom(me) in all aspects of life-practical/non erotic and fun/erotic. Devotes most of time to other commitments (e.g. job) but Dom(me) has first pick of the slave's free time.

8. Full-Time live-in consensual slave
Within no more than a few broad limits/requirements, the slave regards herself/himself as existing solely for the Dom(me)'s pleasure/well being. Slave in turn expects to be regarded as a prized possession. Not much different from the situation of the traditional housewife, except that within the S/M world the slave's position is more likely to be fully consensual, especially of the slave is male. Within the S/M world, a full time "slave" arrangement is entered into with an explicit awareness of the magnitude carefully, with more awareness of the magnitude of power that is being given up, and hence is usually entered into much more carefully, with more awareness of the possible dangers, and with much clearer and more specific agreements than usually precede the traditional marriage.

9. Consensual Total Slave with NO Limits
A common fantasy ideal which probably doesn't exist in real life (except in authoritarian religious cults and other situations where the "consent" is induced by brainwashing and/or social or economic pressures, and hence isn't fully consensual). A few S/M purists will insist that you aren't really a slave unless you're willing to do absolutely anything for your Dom(me), with no limits at all. I've met a few people who claimed to be no-limit slaves, but in all cases I have reason to doubt the claim.



Copyright 1984 and 1988, Diane Vera




Babybass -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/22/2007 9:22:01 AM)

Thank you all - this has been helpful - as always!!




Qithoras -> RE: Slave/Sub (11/22/2007 10:40:31 AM)

It really depends all on how one defines sub/slave.
I've read varying opinions.

However I think the first reply sums up how I would have answered if I wasn't beaten to it.

quote:

Does it really matter what label you attach to yourself? So long as you are being you and you partner with someone who likes who "you" are?





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