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Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 11:08:25 AM

ctrlaltdelete

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Reading through the forums and posts for a little bit now, I seem to only read about the teaching (other terms used are: training, educating, guiding, breaking, making her live up to expectataions, etc.) of subs/slaves by Doms/Masters and the things that subs/slaves have learned from or through their Masters/Doms and the training they received from them.

I hardly ever read about the growth and evolution, the learning, that Doms/Masters have experienced and realized by means of a sub/slave being in their lives.

From personal experience, I have learned a lot from subs that I owned, interacted or scened with over the years. I have learned from bratty subs to be more patient. I have discovered through maso/painslut subs that I have a great natural knack for sadistic activities. I have overcome my homophobia about naked male bodies touching while group scening with insatiable slut subs. I have learned to define and understand myself in my role as a man and dominant individual better by seeing the "two sides of the coin" in switches. These are supposed to serve as examples and I will not bore you the tedion of more detail.

How many Doms/Masters out there would say that they have grown through and learned from their subs/slaves? And how many are comfortable sharing this? Thank you for your input into and feedback about this issue.

Edited for shits and giggles and typos.

< Message edited by ctrlaltdelete -- 11/21/2007 11:10:24 AM >

_____________________________

The opinions expressed in my posts are strictly mine and do not seek to imply that my personal beliefs are representative of those of ANY other individual(s). Should these opinions hurt your little feelers, you are free and welcome to stop reading them.

Post #: 1

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 11:22:04 AM

RRafe

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Hell, outside of play technique-I have learned EVERYTHING about Domination from my past girls. And anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

You don't get born knowing this-and you don't learn it from reading-you have to DO IT.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 2

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 11:31:54 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Hell, outside of play technique-I have learned EVERYTHING about Domination from my past girls. And anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

You don't get born knowing this-and you don't learn it from reading-you have to DO IT.

I have to agree with this. It is one of the downfalls of cyber and even I saw it somewhat in local communities. Many experienced dominants, probably subconsciously, in cyber rarely will not write in a tone of learning many aspects of the life from being with a submissive. They will cop to learning something here and there or through local community participation but for some reason the preaching of “I am a natural” is always pushed. A person’s personality and what they are about has to be natural on some level but in fact a lot of this stuff action wise is not natural but effort and experienced oriented and I am not talking about the toys.

To me trust is often used the same way. We harp on a submissive trusting their dominant but the fact is a dominant equally has to learn to trust the submissive in order to truly flourish.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 3

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 11:41:58 AM

RRafe

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Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Hell, outside of play technique-I have learned EVERYTHING about Domination from my past girls. And anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

You don't get born knowing this-and you don't learn it from reading-you have to DO IT.

I have to agree with this. It is one of the downfalls of cyber and even I saw it somewhat in local communities. Many experienced dominants, probably subconsciously, in cyber rarely will not write in a tone of learning many aspects of the life from being with a submissive. They will cop to learning something here and there or through local community participation but for some reason the preaching of “I am a natural” is always pushed. A person’s personality and what they are about has to be natural on some level but in fact a lot of this stuff action wise is not natural but effort and experienced oriented and I am not talking about the toys.

To me trust is often used the same way. We harp on a submissive trusting their dominant but the fact is a dominant equally has to learn to trust the submissive in order to truly flourish.

Exactly. I have to be able to trust that a *woman* can speak honestly-without letting her fears and inhibitions get in the way. And she has to learn that I am unlikely to freak out over that honesty, like some stuffy vanilla guy would.

I remember the amazement I felt the first times I did certain acts with girls.........there was this sense of awe, that it was really happening. When I was new-the reactions I got confused me. But over time, I came to understand how many of them is seriously hard wired in submissive women-purely intinctive. You learn that with hands on flesh.

You learn it by looking someone in the eye in a conversation, boring in, fencing for an opening.

You learn to listen-by discarding what you WANT them to say.

You learn it after a scene,when she is spent and resting-and the walls are not just thin, but non existent.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 4

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 11:45:12 AM

ctrlaltdelete

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Thanks Rafe - this is the type of feedback I was hoping for (but not necessarily expecting to see due the "self-emasculation" that some will perceive by saying so openly).

_____________________________

The opinions expressed in my posts are strictly mine and do not seek to imply that my personal beliefs are representative of those of ANY other individual(s). Should these opinions hurt your little feelers, you are free and welcome to stop reading them.

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 5

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:02:01 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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You're not reading the right threads. Plenty of us have stated that we learn from our subs/slaves. I do.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 6

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:05:49 PM

ctrlaltdelete

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Joined: 11/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
You're not reading the right threads. Plenty of us have stated that we learn from our subs/slaves. I do.

Do enlighten me, please. Can you post some links to a few of those?

_____________________________

The opinions expressed in my posts are strictly mine and do not seek to imply that my personal beliefs are representative of those of ANY other individual(s). Should these opinions hurt your little feelers, you are free and welcome to stop reading them.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 7

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:24:45 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Hell, outside of play technique-I have learned EVERYTHING about Domination from my past girls. And anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

You don't get born knowing this-and you don't learn it from reading-you have to DO IT.

"EVERYTHING"?

I guess it just proves we're all different in the detail.... I've had a need to control my partners for as long as I can remember, and that didn't work too well in those early vanilla relationships. So I could hardly say I "learnt" to dominate from them....

For me, I also learnt many of the practical and technical skills of playing from research and others but the need to control and dominate all came from WITHIN. Of course, it still required the presence of a submissive to sort the theory from the practical through active D/s dynamics.

By RRafe's generalised definition, anyone can be a Dominant by merely adopting a persona - to "wear a hat", if you will.... And if the dom is just playing a role, obviously that's all a sub must be doing, too, right?

And me? Well obviously I've spent my time in the lifestyle just "blowing smoke up your ass"!

Focus.

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 8

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:30:44 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
You're not reading the right threads. Plenty of us have stated that we learn from our subs/slaves. I do.

Do enlighten me, please. Can you post some links to a few of those?

I don't do this as well as LA...but she has limited access during the day now.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1002230/mpage_2/key_Dominant%252Clearning%252Csub/tm.htm#1023949

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1418248/mpage_1/key_guiding%252Cmaster/tm.htm#1418248

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131612/mpage_1/key_guiding%252Cmaster/tm.htm#131612

Threads about who influenced. You'll see several Masters who list slaves in their list.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_691972/mpage_1/key_influenced/tm.htm#691972

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1401345/mpage_1/key_influenced/tm.htm#1401345

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 9

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:31:08 PM

ctrlaltdelete

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Joined: 11/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I've had a need to control my partners for as long as I can remember, and that didn't work too well in those early vanilla relationships. So I could hardly say I "learnt" to dominate from them....

Focus:

What you are saying is not that far off what I was saying. You did not learn to dominate from your partners, but you say yourself that you learned it through them. In a catalyst kind of way, didn't they give you the opportunity to fine tune and hone your skills of domination and control?

Or am I misreading what you are saying?

Nick

_____________________________

The opinions expressed in my posts are strictly mine and do not seek to imply that my personal beliefs are representative of those of ANY other individual(s). Should these opinions hurt your little feelers, you are free and welcome to stop reading them.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 10

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:32:10 PM

ctrlaltdelete

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Joined: 11/6/2007
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Master Fire - thanks for the links! I'll be happy to read up...

_____________________________

The opinions expressed in my posts are strictly mine and do not seek to imply that my personal beliefs are representative of those of ANY other individual(s). Should these opinions hurt your little feelers, you are free and welcome to stop reading them.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 11

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:32:47 PM

RRafe

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Joined: 8/29/2007
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I don't "need to control" anyone dude. That gives the bottom the upper hand over you-it's giving up personal power.

Suppose you enlighten us on how you came to your current perspectives? All by yourself?

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 12

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 12:37:30 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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Interesting question...As an experienced sub who has been with some inexperienced Dom's and had amazing relationships with them, I can honestly say that we all learn from each other.

I consider myself as having been the conduit between the Dom's fantasies and the practice and realization of those desires and fantasies...and they were the conduit for mine.

Totally synergistic and anyone who thinks otherwise, is either too egocentric or in denial to realize the truth.

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 13

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 1:00:52 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I've had a need to control my partners for as long as I can remember, and that didn't work too well in those early vanilla relationships. So I could hardly say I "learnt" to dominate from them....

Focus:

What you are saying is not that far off what I was saying. You did not learn to dominate from your partners, but you say yourself that you learned it through them. In a catalyst kind of way, didn't they give you the opportunity to fine tune and hone your skills of domination and control?

Or am I misreading what you are saying?

Yes, "fine tune and hone" etc, but I always had the basic need from within. I often use the expression that "water finds its own level" and just as gays gravitate to other gays and gay sites etc, I gravitate toward submissive women and sites like CM. You don't "learn" to be gay, it comes from within - just as I don't believe you "learn" to be Dom or sub....

But as a Dom, what I did know from within was still only theory until I'd interacted with a submissive partner. You need both D & s to create the desired effect and dynamic, otherwise everything you "know" about intercourse is just masturbation.

And that same need to control and dominate was equally a great source of frustration and exasperation with my earlier vanilla partners, because I'm not an abusive misogynist.

Focus.

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 14

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 1:40:05 PM

lateralist1

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If I have understood you correctly RRafe I agree.
It is not my responsibility to control a sub/slave.
That's his or her job.
I provide the incentive to do so though by teaching what I require.
There are presumably degrees of domination just as there are degrees of submission. In the end all you can be is yourself and if that isn't right for a sub/slave then it isn't. I've had some good times with subs and obviously they have taught me a lot. The main thing they have taught me is to be myself lol.

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 15

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 1:54:32 PM

RRafe

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Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

If I have understood you correctly RRafe I agree.
It is not my responsibility to control a sub/slave.
That's his or her job.
I provide the incentive to do so though by teaching what I require.
There are presumably degrees of domination just as there are degrees of submission. In the end all you can be is yourself and if that isn't right for a sub/slave then it isn't. I've had some good times with subs and obviously they have taught me a lot. The main thing they have taught me is to be myself lol.

What I have discovered over the years is that you really cannot *force* anyone to be what they have no desire or capacity for-not in a society of free people.

So pardon me if I tend to snicker at Tops who puff up. I dumped at least one of that sort when I tried being a sub, many many years back. Wasn't fuck all she could do about it-but whine. What I *CAN OFFER* is an enviornment that facillitates a personality that enjoys following-rather than leading. But that still doesn"t let the sub out of taking a degree of personal responsibility and initiative in *allowing* me to do that-and not burn my ass out.

If I have to drag someone along with me-that's not going to help ME to get anywhere in life. A relationship takes work from everyone. And what you refuse to do, takes away from someone else-like it or not.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 16

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 9:09:18 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

How many Doms/Masters out there would say that they have grown through and learned from their subs/slaves? And how many are comfortable sharing this? Thank you for your input into and feedback about this issue.

I learn from almost everyone I come in contact, that includes submissives and slaves. Every experience I have teaches me something, provided I'm paying attention enough to actually learn. Over the years I've learned quite a bit from various submissives I've known, and not just lifestyle related things. There was one who I used to have lengthy discussions about criminal psychology and flower gardening. Had we had more time I'd probably have learned a thing or three about shooting (while I'm handy with a rifle, she was a champion marksman). From another I learned some new tricks in the kitchen, a few new recipes. There's one sitting next to me right now who has helped me with my banjo playing. Truth be told the submissives I remember most fondly are all one's from whom I learned something outside of the lifestyle, various shared interests.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 17

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 9:16:17 PM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Hell, outside of play technique-I have learned EVERYTHING about Domination from my past girls. And anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

I have to disagree with this statement. It may be true for you and it may be the only way you were able to learn... but to presume that what is true for you is true for anyone is stretching things a bit far.

Over the years I've learned from a variety of sources. Some indeed were submissives. But I've also learned from dominants that I sat and talked with, sharing ideas and experiences and sometimes watching when circumstances permitted. I've also learned from practicing alone, I spent months practicing on paper targets with a whip before I ever first tried it on a submissive, by which time I already well knew what I was doing. I have learned from reading books and continue to do so. There are also all the many things I've drawn from general life experiences. For example, much of my own personal knotwork and ropework (including my own style of shibari) is based on what I learned as a Boy Scout.

People learn in what ways are open to them... and in what ways they are able. Some focus on one method, others on many. Some learn slowly, others very quickly. What is important isn't how someone learned... but how well they learned it.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 18

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 9:25:17 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Hell, outside of play technique-I have learned EVERYTHING about Domination from my past girls. And anyone who claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

I have to disagree with this statement. It may be true for you and it may be the only way you were able to learn... but to presume that what is true for you is true for anyone is stretching things a bit far.

Over the years I've learned from a variety of sources. Some indeed were submissives. But I've also learned from dominants that I sat and talked with, sharing ideas and experiences and sometimes watching when circumstances permitted. I've also learned from practicing alone, I spent months practicing on paper targets with a whip before I ever first tried it on a submissive, by which time I already well knew what I was doing. I have learned from reading books and continue to do so. There are also all the many things I've drawn from general life experiences. For example, much of my own personal knotwork and ropework (including my own style of shibari) is based on what I learned as a Boy Scout.

People learn in what ways are open to them... and in what ways they are able. Some focus on one method, others on many. Some learn slowly, others very quickly. What is important isn't how someone learned... but how well they learned it.

From other doms, I learned mostly techniques in play. How to Dominate, I learned from interactions with subs. Some of who, happened to be switches-I learned *my* rope and knotwork from HER. When I talk about blowing smoke-it's from some rather distasteful experiences with Tops who never gave any of thier girls credit. Narccissists, in other words.

Like you, I have also learned things non kink from past girls. I do apologize for my initial post being a bit pissy about that. It cheeses me off to see subs treated as inferior beings-they aren't.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 19

RE: Growth and evolution as a two-way street? - 11/21/2007 9:50:49 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

From other doms, I learned mostly techniques in play. How to Dominate, I learned from interactions with subs. Some of who, happened to be switches-I learned *my* rope and knotwork from HER. When I talk about blowing smoke-it's from some rather distasteful experiences with Tops who never gave any of thier girls credit. Narccissists, in other words.

Like you, I have also learned things non kink from past girls. I do apologize for my initial post being a bit pissy about that. It cheeses me off to see subs treated as inferior beings-they aren't.

I understand, one doesn't have to look far or long in these forums to see individuals with over inflated egos and poor attitudes. I am suspicious of any Top/dominant who claims to have "been born with it" all, who never gives credit for learning anything from anyone... I sincerely doubt that is possible, and am certain that it is unlikely in the extreme.

As for submissives being inferior... as a group I would consider that statement false. As individuals it varies, some are and some are not... which is all relative to whom ever you may be comparing them too. As I said before, and I think its an interesting point to ponder, I remember most fondly those from whom I learned the most... and am least fond of those from whom I learned little or nothing. That is true for myself only of course, but I wonder whether its a characteristic shared by other dominants, and if so how many.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to RRafe)

Post #: 20

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