RE: Submissive beat me. (Full Version)

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darchChylde -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/2/2007 8:39:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
This used to be true.  However, OJ changed the playing field quite a bit especially where domestic violence is involved.  Not only do most states have victim notification and statement laws now, there is a huge pool of money to help victims of crimes and dv victims in paticular to learn to live alone and get counseling to avoid being in the same situation.   The last case I can recall being somewhat involved in the woman got an apartment and 6 months paid rent, a beater car, gas vouchers and quite a huge stack of household goods/groceries from local merchants.  She was able to live in a secured apartment, attend group with other women in similar situations, find a job and go back to school part-time to find a better job.

The attitude of you can't change it so you might as well join it is not at all helpful to the OP.  You can change it, you do deserve better.  Call your local safe center/shelter and get some help.  You'd be suprised at how willing people are to help.

Your statements about the court system seem to ignore the fact that dv crimes are mandatory prosecutions now as are restraining order violations.  I go agree one has to weigh whether being outted would be a risk and it is possible that sexual orientation and bdsm would raise some eyebrows.  However, a large majority of the progams out there are not dependent upon prosecution (at least here).


you are correct, in theory... but in actuality, it really doesn't work in the majority of cases of domestic crime, maybe in a few years

for the record, i just found that my Dominant doesn't agree with me either [:(]... but that doesn't change my stance




youngpupforBCms -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/2/2007 10:19:04 PM)

This is slightly off topic and I havent bothered to read back through all the posts, but in general if memory serves it seems mostly woman are against retaliation strikes, and mostly those for a retilation strikes are men.  While this doesnt hold true for every single post its just a majority Ive noticed on this topic as Ive watched it for the last few days and Im curious exactly why that is.  Why are the men generally more likley to find the club and go deal out justice as they see fit, while the women are more content to report it to the authorities and let them deal with it.  Not looking to start any sexist arguements here, just wondering why a certain trend seems to appear in these sorta things.




darchChylde -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/2/2007 10:27:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: youngpupforBCms

This is slightly off topic and I havent bothered to read back through all the posts, but in general if memory serves it seems mostly woman are against retaliation strikes, and mostly those for a retilation strikes are men.  While this doesnt hold true for every single post its just a majority Ive noticed on this topic as Ive watched it for the last few days and Im curious exactly why that is.  Why are the men generally more likley to find the club and go deal out justice as they see fit, while the women are more content to report it to the authorities and let them deal with it.  Not looking to start any sexist arguements here, just wondering why a certain trend seems to appear in these sorta things.


yes, women are more involved than we are




thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/3/2007 8:03:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: youngpupforBCms

This is slightly off topic and I havent bothered to read back through all the posts, but in general if memory serves it seems mostly woman are against retaliation strikes, and mostly those for a retilation strikes are men. While this doesnt hold true for every single post its just a majority Ive noticed on this topic as Ive watched it for the last few days and Im curious exactly why that is. Why are the men generally more likley to find the club and go deal out justice as they see fit, while the women are more content to report it to the authorities and let them deal with it. Not looking to start any sexist arguements here, just wondering why a certain trend seems to appear in these sorta things.


I know for me, "dealing with it myself" means becoming what I hate: someone who feels they have the right to harm others.

Also legally speaking if you "deal with it" yourself you could find yourself in jail. The abuser, the rapist, the whatever is not worthy you losing your freedom in my strong opinion.




KindLadyGrey -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/4/2007 3:18:50 PM)

I've noticed the same trend in life in general. I think it's because as children women are taught to appeal to authority while boys are encouraged to solve their own problems. Society is becoming more enlightened, but independent behavior from boys is still more encouraged than independent behavior from girls.

I am a woman, but I tend to agree with darchClyde that you shouldn't rely on anyone else to solve your problems for you. I also have a general distrust of the ability of the legal system to actually prevent crime. Best case scenario, they might be able to mop up the mess after the deed is done, maybe. In cases of assault or domestic violence, pursuing the legal track often means a lot of time, money, and humiliation, and is very often futile anyway. Let's not even talk about the hell that rape victims go through to get justice in our legal system. Fuck that. Fuck it with a big rusty iron dildo with spikes.

This isn't the mafia, but a lot of lifestyle communities tend to be well networked. People talk. If it gets out that Joe's balls had an unfortunate run in with a hedge trimmer after he'd been accused of assaulting Mary, the next guy is much less likely to assault Mary.

Additionally, and this should be abundantly clear to anyone in this lifestyle, a big part of assault is about power. Whether you are dominant or submissive, the ideal closure for this kind of situation is something that allows the victim to gain power over the attacker, to stop being afraid, to be in control. This is something the legal system NEVER helps with; even if they put a guy away for a few months, he's going to get out and he'll still be the same asshole who beat you, and you'll still be his victim.

So what can a posse do for you? A posse can make you feel empowered, supported, and in control. On the other side, it will make the attacker feel humbled and fearful. There are a lot of perfectly legal methods of intimidation, and a lot of perfectly legal ways to emasculate a man without actually cutting off his dick. There is nothing illegal about making a person very very sorry they ever fucked with you, just don't break any laws doing it.

I would also echo your advice, youngpup, that it behooves everyone, especially women and those in minority lifestyles, to learn how to defend themselves.




darchChylde -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/5/2007 1:35:19 PM)

after a few days of thinking, i haven't changed my stance; though maybe intimidation may be better than actualy beating the crap out of someone, but i still don't thing it's as effective... but i've come to the realisation that there is no right response to an assault, no matter the variables of the original assault

to assume that there is a right way to handle something assumes that one should live their life expecting that thing, this is unthinkable in cases of domestic violence... the real reason that there is division about how to handle it is that  it is a not concrete, cut and dry situation that molds itself to the rules of acceptable behavior and is in fact an abberation and should be treated as such instead of validating it by jumping into an if-then routine




Kaiynasha -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/5/2007 7:10:05 PM)

Finally common sense reigning in here.[:)]




MsSaskia -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/6/2007 12:18:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

in cases of domestic violence, especially with trans victims or those in a alternative-lifestyle (remember that bdsm and Ds are still in the closet and you can still be legally descriminated against or even prosecuted for  practicing bdsm... legally, there is no consentual assault) the criminal justice system will, almost without fail, actively victimizes the victim... "innocent until proven guilty" is just that; in america you have to prove guilt, not innocence... what does this mean in action?  this means that the defense gets to (often publicly) pick apart every part of your life in order to get their client off or atleast persuade you into going for a lesser charge, to sum it up this is legal blackmail

as for the original attacker pressing charges?  am i the only one that sees george dubya's joining mensa as more likely than someone in texas letting it go public that he was in any type of  relationship with a trans girl?


I've got a lot more experience with nonconsensual violence than I'd like.  I think a bit less would've been nice, really.  What it did, though, was motivate me to become a social worker and get involved in activism on all sorts of issues that usually involve the most marginalized populations.  What I learned was that the marginalized stayed marginalized and any help they could get from the system was a drop in the bucket. 

Just about any involvement with any kind of authority meant trouble, and the "tell me alllll the juicy details" was the least of it and always deeply humiliating and served no purpose but to let the authorities (whoever had power to help at the moment) decide whether you were a good victim (a nun with a busload of orphans on their way to listen to the Pope) or a bad victim (everyone else, but definitely deserving of whatever happened).  When I worked at a homeless shelter for women with children, my own coworkers would sit at staff meetings and, instead of discussing cases, would gossip about the residents and make decisions about who got what resources based on whether they thought the resident was a bitch or not.  Case files were treated like comic books.  And when I worked on a rape crisis hotline, I heard stories over and over again from very recent victims who'd gone to the police to file a report and been told by the officer that they had to wait 72 hours to file.  72 hours is the legal limit for evidence collection, which means that the officers deliberately ensured that the victim would not be able to provide any physical evidence if the case came to trial.  The officers also knew (know) full well that the number of victims who come forward is incredibly small, and the number of victims who come forward after being turned away (officers refusing to take a report) is infinitessimal.  All a big laugh for the officers, plus a good way to get out of all that annoying paperwork.

If I'm ever in a position again where someone's assaulted me, I have countermeasures in place and they do not involve voluntary contact with authorities.  Jail would be preferable to knowing someone completely got away with it.  Then again, I know how to fight with and without weapons now, so retaliation is really less of an issue.

There is a certain segment of the population that actually targets people they know will be "bad victims" in the eyes of the police.  When I worked with homeless teenagers, I heard stories about other homeless kids who'd find out which girls had warrants out and then they'd rape them, knowing beyond any doubt that the girl could not go to the police without being arrested herself.  Transgendered (and queer and black and homeless et cetera) folks are a popular target for people who like their violence nonconsensual, since they know exactly what will happen if the victims come forward.  People who don't get targeted are average citizens with more mainstream appeal and some access to resources. 

People on the fringes of society are really on their/our own.  The system teaches us that reporting will make things worse for us.  What we're left with is the same methods that worked before police departments and social service organizations existed:  tribal justice. 

And yeah, my first thought after reading posts that advised Ms Sakura not to track the perp down because he might report her was, "Hello, 911?  I just got beat up by a kinky tranny!"  Ha.  Not likely.  Her attacker is most likely a fringe dweller himself ("What's that, sir?  You say you previously had a consensual sadomasochistic relationship with this transgendered person? I see!") and knows full well how much sympathy he'll get from reporting.

I have a feeling Ms. Sakura is not OK right now.  Coming here hoping for some kind of support didn't get her much.  I hope she has a good support network in her city and I hope she puts the word out for others in her community to watch out for the guy that did that to her.




MsSaskia -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/6/2007 12:22:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

So what can a posse do for you? A posse can make you feel empowered, supported, and in control. On the other side, it will make the attacker feel humbled and fearful. There are a lot of perfectly legal methods of intimidation, and a lot of perfectly legal ways to emasculate a man without actually cutting off his dick. There is nothing illegal about making a person very very sorry they ever fucked with you, just don't break any laws doing it.

I would also echo your advice, youngpup, that it behooves everyone, especially women and those in minority lifestyles, to learn how to defend themselves.


A little superglue goes a long way.  ; )
And yes, I can't ever advocate enough for learning and practicing self-defense.




thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/7/2007 10:09:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

So what can a posse do for you? A posse can make you feel empowered, supported, and in control. On the other side, it will make the attacker feel humbled and fearful. There are a lot of perfectly legal methods of intimidation, and a lot of perfectly legal ways to emasculate a man without actually cutting off his dick. There is nothing illegal about making a person very very sorry they ever fucked with you, just don't break any laws doing it.

I would also echo your advice, youngpup, that it behooves everyone, especially women and those in minority lifestyles, to learn how to defend themselves.


A little superglue goes a long way. ; )
And yes, I can't ever advocate enough for learning and practicing self-defense.


Self defense is different than retaliation or getting even or taking the law into your own hands. Doing any of those things is very likely to find you on the wrong side of the law.

I don't think the person who abuses is worth you making that potential sacrifice. Fight back when it happens, damn straight, get out of that relationship immediately and report them to the police.




thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/7/2007 10:11:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

after a few days of thinking, i haven't changed my stance; though maybe intimidation may be better than actualy beating the crap out of someone, but i still don't thing it's as effective... but i've come to the realisation that there is no right response to an assault, no matter the variables of the original assault

to assume that there is a right way to handle something assumes that one should live their life expecting that thing, this is unthinkable in cases of domestic violence... the real reason that there is division about how to handle it is that it is a not concrete, cut and dry situation that molds itself to the rules of acceptable behavior and is in fact an abberation and should be treated as such instead of validating it by jumping into an if-then routine



Actually I think imagining what could happen and being prepared is the only safe and realistic way to go.

I took self defense and thus once I was an adult I may have been assulted but I was not raped again because I knew how to react, I did it, and I reported it and probably saved future targets of that person.

Being prepared is not the same as allowing it or even encouraging to happen in my opinion and experience.




Decimus -> RE: Submissive beat me. (12/7/2007 10:20:54 AM)

Arriving late to the conversation I'm sure most people have already read the thread and left, but I wish to post my two cents. I feel badly that you were hurt...being a submissive myself I can not think of any reason that I would every physically harm a domme or even a female in general regardless what they did. The most I would ever do is restrain them from hurting me but I would never fight or hurt them.

So the most I can offer is what others already have, which would be meaningless since you have already dealt with the issue so I hope you feel better and do not remain hurt.




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