RE: Twisted Behavior

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auntiedee -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 10:47:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku <throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns> Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? Entirely agree. In my previous relationship, I suffered some emotional & physical abuse. The emotional abuse has been a lot more long lasting than the physical abuse. This was somewhere between consensual and non-consensual; I consented to the relationship and in theory I consented to everything that happened within that relationship. In reality, the dynamics of the relationship eventually put me in a position where my consent was irrelevant and my well-being became his last priority; he denied any responsibility for his actions that damaged me, even when they were not consistent with the ethics he'd claimed to hold for himself for several years (lying, breaking promises, hitting me when he was angry, blaming me for things over which I had no control, refusing communication). Those are the actions that ultimately caused me the most emotional damage. I doubt he intended to engage in abusive behavior; in other contexts I'd say that he was just majorly f*cked up. For me, what made him abusive was his refusal to take any kind of responsibility for his actions. If he'd ever taken responsibility for his part in the debacle that our relationship became, I'd have had a lot more respect for him then, and now. The healing would have been easier, too, as I wouldn't have had to spend so much time trying to figure out what really was my responsibility and what wasn't, or feel guilty for having let him down so much that he was "forced" to treat me as he did. My belief that I could (and should) change so he'd be happy kept me there two years longer than I should have been. Ultimately, I feel that abusive relationships can happen regardless of consent and that it's impossible to tell from the outside what the true story is. Sometimes, it is only in hindsight that one can recognize abuse - at the time, even when I thought to myself, "His behavior is entirely illogical, disrespectful and he's playing me for a fool!" I'd quickly shut that voice up with reminding myself of all my faults (I do have many after all!) and why it was my responsibility to change and make things work. I'd make excuses for his lies, or back down when he yelled at me for noticing inconsistencies and tell myself I must have been wrong, and then apologize. He'd ream me out for things that I didn't even remember happening, and I'd apologize. While with him, I sometimes felt as if I was living in some kind of wierd shadowy world, where nothing was as it seemed; felt like I was on sand that constantly shifted beneath my feet. This was particularly difficult when almost everyone in our community regards him as an admirable, trustworthy and ethical person - and he is considered something of a community leader; to confide in anyone was a betrayal which he heavily discouraged, and I sometimes also felt that since so many other people found him so great, I must be wrong in what I thought I was seeing. Completely ignoring the fact that none of these other people lived with him 24/7. Anyway, I guess I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I really consider that the opportunity for abuse exists more in a power-exchange relationship than in a egalitarian one, because a power imbalance has to exist for abuse to happen, and that's built in automatically in d/s relationships. I think that power over another is a bit of a slippery slope and that the best intentioned person might get carried away and not realize that they've crossed a line. I think that's what happened with my ex and I. dia

sexyred1 -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 11:00:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph. The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread). This explanation is one of the reasons I like the forums; some days I even learn something about myself.

IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 12:30:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra How about happiness and sadness? Would that work? From the outside looking in (or from the inside itself for that matter), if the alleged abused person is happy with their situation and projects that happiness in their day to day lives - especially when talking about the person supposedly doing the abusing, can it be supposed that there's probably no abuse going on and that one person's treatment of the other is just fine? And if the alleged abused person is miserable, sad, fearful, etc (and NOT getting off on that fear), and projecting that sadness, et al in their day to day lives - especially when talking about the person supposedly doing the abusing, then could it be presumed that there's probably abuse going on and that one person's treatment of the other is NOT just fine? I'm just guessing here cause while I was IN an abusive relationship, I'm coming to see how difficult it is being on the outside trying to figure out what can't really be figured out. And I guess that goes back to what I was saying earlier...my best suggestion when on the outside looking in is to do nothing but be a friend - whether people are happy or sad and let them figure the rest out for themselves. juliet Would that work? LOL Juliet Very nicely said

IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 12:33:42 PM)
quote: One thing when people are being abused it effect everything they do in some way How does it effect them latex? And before you think that I am picking on you, I am not. I happen to think that this thread of yours is very good and informative for others. I asked how it effects them, in your eyes, because my first impulse is to disagree. Yet, I would rather hear your thoughts on it first.

IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 12:35:13 PM)
quote: I think it can be really difficult for the victim to know the difference. Especially if they go into subspace at the time of the abuse. I disagree kaiynasha. What does subspace have to do or not do with abusive behavior?

IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 12:36:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph. The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread). This explanation is one of the reasons I like the forums; some days I even learn something about myself. I totally agree with you [:)]

LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 2:52:47 PM)
when someone is in depression. There creativity is stiffled. In a job Enviroment lets say your a air traffic controler. Where do you think your mind would be. think of it as the domino effect. loss of job. Health issues. Makes people with drawn. lot of ways

IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 3:51:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 when someone is in depression. There creativity is stiffled. In a job Enviroment lets say your a air traffic controler. Where do you think your mind would be. think of it as the domino effect. loss of job. Health issues. Makes people with drawn. lot of ways I will agree to a degree that depression does effect a person's everyday life; however, depression is not necessarily a sign of abuse.

geekbabe -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 4:51:03 PM)
That's because feelings of depression aren't necessarily depression itself - feeling that way is only one of the possible symptoms of post-traumatic stress. If a relationship is causing sadness, fear, withdrawal, feelings of worthlessness and emptyness, loss of interest in things you used to enjoy and would still enjoy if not for feeling as if nothing matters, if your ability to work or your health is affected negatively, that's a bad relationship. Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain, NOT a reaction to actual events. Mourning is not clinical depression either, although you may feel down if someone close to you is gone.

Baroque -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 6:05:16 PM)
auntiedee: your post was excellent. A situation like this can cause real harm yet be slow and insidious. Thanks and take care.

auntiedee -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 6:18:31 PM)
Insidious is exactly the right word. I think people don't realize that when they say "If you end up in a bad relationship, it's because you weren't careful enough when you started".

miladyh -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 6:31:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64 I had someone approach me and ask a question. In our lifestyle we have a whole melting pot of people via ideas concepts some good and some bad. This person was asking the question. The Sadist Dom's and domes are we giving an out let for people who might be abusive in a Neilla relationship. Now peoples here are going to say what might be abuse to one person might not be to someone else. So here is my question. When is it abuse and how do you explain to a sub what that it is so they know the difference. ( I do not want post of links or sites just your opinions) What are some of the signs of a abusive relationship via mental or physical What actions can you take if you know a 100 percent that someone is in danger of death or being hurt. How do you break the programming of an abused submissive or Dom (if you enter into a relationship with a partner find out they have been abused in the past how do you avoid making them feel they are still in those relationships Disclaimer ( everything posted has nothing to do with said person or persons other then general observations about life the universal code etc ) OK how about a real life example... Just got out of a relationship where he raised his hand to me once and only once and he wound up leaving in cuffs with a restraining order to follow. I managed to roll and did not get punched but when you are in an argument and you are being drug around by your ponytail and this is not play yeah that was considered abuse... Should I have seen the signs yes, and they were plenty not only that but I had been warned about an abusive past from said person and I chose to not listen but it does not change the fact that he had no right to do what he did. If you know someone is in danger tell them how you feel and what you are seeing if they choose to stay there is really nothing you can do but be there for them when they need you. As for deprogramming I can not answer that as this has only ever happened to me once and is all I ever plan to let it happen. Bit I was luckier than most and did not suffer any lasting effects of it.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 6:34:31 PM)
I agree with a lot of this, but still think people are missing the basic problem--the real reason why it's so hard to pinpoint the difference between what we do and abuse. It's that people generally don't think about which semantic context they mean. Yeah, I know, "semantic context" is a difficult phrase, but you have to pay attention to it. Something that qualifies as "abusive" in one semantic context doesn't necessarily qualify as "abusive" in another. In states where hitting another person is illegal REGARDLESS of whether it's consensual, almost all of us are involved in abusive relationships from a legal point of view. For obvious reasons, we don't like definitions like that; we can't feel that they're abusive relationships if we willingly enter into and remain in them. Peach would certainly not claim that I abuse her even though I do all kinds of nasty things to her, physically, emotionally--you name it. To HER, it's not abusive because it fulfills her in the context of our relationship. (You can even understand, incidentally, why the state would want to criminalize many of the things we do even if they're consensual; I think it's a very fine line for the state to walk. We've gone over the whole basement castration case, remember. Whether it's good or right or just for the state to criminalize consensual violence under any circumstances is an interesting question, but suited for a different thread...) People talk past each other when they get on the subject of abusive relationships because we all walk around with different conceptions of what "abusive" means, and I've noticed that Collarme users rarely, if ever, specify the semantic context. We have a silly tendency to want each word to mean precisely one thing in every conceivable context, and language just doesn't work that way. "Consensual," by the way, is another one of those words whose meaning varies tremendously with the context. Like "abusive," "consensual" has a legal definition--and that legal definition isn't always useful. quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku <throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns> Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? If your response is that because they return out of fear, how is that different than ensuring obedience through the threat of punishment? How many of you would lose respect for your dominant if he did not enforce the rules? Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph. The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).

IrishMist -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/25/2007 7:19:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I agree with a lot of this, but still think people are missing the basic problem--the real reason why it's so hard to pinpoint the difference between what we do and abuse. It's that people generally don't think about which semantic context they mean. Yeah, I know, "semantic context" is a difficult phrase, but you have to pay attention to it. Something that qualifies as "abusive" in one semantic context doesn't necessarily qualify as "abusive" in another. In states where hitting another person is illegal REGARDLESS of whether it's consensual, almost all of us are involved in abusive relationships from a legal point of view. For obvious reasons, we don't like definitions like that; we can't feel that they're abusive relationships if we willingly enter into and remain in them. Peach would certainly not claim that I abuse her even though I do all kinds of nasty things to her, physically, emotionally--you name it. To HER, it's not abusive because it fulfills her in the context of our relationship. (You can even understand, incidentally, why the state would want to criminalize many of the things we do even if they're consensual; I think it's a very fine line for the state to walk. We've gone over the whole basement castration case, remember. Whether it's good or right or just for the state to criminalize consensual violence under any circumstances is an interesting question, but suited for a different thread...) People talk past each other when they get on the subject of abusive relationships because we all walk around with different conceptions of what "abusive" means, and I've noticed that Collarme users rarely, if ever, specify the semantic context. We have a silly tendency to want each word to mean precisely one thing in every conceivable context, and language just doesn't work that way. "Consensual," by the way, is another one of those words whose meaning varies tremendously with the context. Like "abusive," "consensual" has a legal definition--and that legal definition isn't always useful. quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku <throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns> Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? If your response is that because they return out of fear, how is that different than ensuring obedience through the threat of punishment? How many of you would lose respect for your dominant if he did not enforce the rules? Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph. The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread). /nods I really like how Michael put it though; that it's the motivation that makes the determination.

shootingstar67 -> RE: Twisted Behavior (11/26/2007 4:38:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe It's abuse when you cannot make it stop. Perfect answer.

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