How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:18:35 PM)

Seeing the thread Coming Out as Kinky, I started to wonder, "Just how kinky am I?"

It should be said that I'm not into BDSM, largely because I'm neither a considerable sadist nor masochist.  I went through a period where I tried bondage, but, meh; whips and chains didn't end up exciting me.  But, on the other hand, I'm 24/7 TPE M/s, with a level of control to slaves that most probably wouldn't buy into.

So the thought is.. if a large, fairly representative vanilla population were to judge people based on a combination of their sadomasochism and Dominance or/and submission, who would they find to be kinker?  Similarly, the same question but with a large, fairly representative population from the BDSM world?

More plainly, if we had four people, who would otherwise be vanilla, expect one of them has one and only one of these qualities..masochist, sadist, submissive, Dominant..and someone from the vanilla world were to judge how kinky they were.. what order do you think they'd be put into?  Ditto, for the judge being from the BDSM world.

Is a sadist/Master far more kinky than someone who's a sadist only or someone who's a Master only?  Is it kinkier to be a sadist or a masochist?  A submissive or a Dominant?  Is it kinker for a Dom to be a masochist or a sadist?  Ditto for a sub.

And, yes, yes, this is very highly a person's interpretation, hardly universal truth.  That's okay; I'm just looking for opinions and thoughts.  I'm not too sure what to think just yet myself.

Edit:  I'm trying to avoid arrays, so as not to cause confusion, so please allow me to give a further simplified version of the question.

People are in a room.
Person A is a sadist.
Person B is a masochist.
Person C is a submissive.
Person D is a Dominant.
Person E is a slave.
Person F is a Master.
Person G is a sadistic Dom.
Person H is a masochistic sub.
(And so forth, fulfilling more possible combinations of sadomasochism and [D/s]/[M/s].)

Either order these individuals from least to most kinky, or score each (such as from 1-10, 1 being vanilla, 10 being ultimately kinky).

Edit 2:

For the purposes of this post, "kinky" defaults to the definition, "deviating from ideally vanilla characteristics, including deviations that are not or not entirely sexual."  (Such as, a sadist who had no interest in sexual sadism would be, for the purpose of the definition of this post, still have his sadism count towards his kinkiness.)

Edit 3:

For anyone who perfers mathematical thought (maybe I'm not alone?), I believe I'd find quite a bit of use in examining a "kinkiness" function.

For the purposes of a kinkiness function, two spectra would exist.
-The sadomasochism spectrum, being from -10 to 10, from hardcore masochist to hardcore sadist, 0 being vanilla.
--The value on this spectrum would be A.
-The D/s spectrum, being from -10 to 10, from 24/7 TPE slave with no limits to a 24/7 TPE Master.
--The value on this spectrum would be B.

Kinkiness would be "K".

An example..
Idea:  Sadism, masochism, Dominance and submission are equally kinky, and they're additively cumulative.
Function:  K = |A| + |B|

More variables for other things, or redefinitions of anything, would be welcome.  (Such as a Boolean for gender.)

Edit 4:  As an annex to [Edit 3], the values A and B can be considered the average of their respective RMS values with respect to time, to account for deviation tendancies.  This modification, like even the base definitions, is optional and open to redefining to better suit one's ideas.



IrishMist -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:21:58 PM)

I understand what you are asking here; however, my only answer would have to be

who cares how kinky I am compared to someone else?



CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:25:47 PM)

Two reasons for concern.

One's simple curiousity.. I chose this alias for a reason.  :P

The other's that it seems to make sense that a kinker person would have more difficulty "coming out of the closet".  I'm trying to gain some understanding of the relative kinkiness of various stances to coorelate it to how much difficulty there would be on an individual due to the adverse judgements of a vanilla individual for an the sterotypical member of this stance to come out of the closet.



Prismfire -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:26:14 PM)

I recently discovered that Sadistic and Masochistic tendancies are not always sexual for those who practice them.
For me that was somewhat of a suprise but in answer to your question I would have to say that kink in my perception is defined as something involving sexual or sensual actions. So if someone practices Sadism or Masochism without the sexual associations would that not then fall under a different lable than *kinky* I feel I will always be way more kinky than some and no where near as kinky as others no matter how I lable myself. As you said its a difference in personal perspective.



MrSpectacular -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:28:01 PM)

I would not necessarily correlate being kinky with any of the lifestyle choices you have selected. You can have a Sadist who is not particularly kinky - just a sadist.



CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:28:06 PM)

Good point.  I'll attempt to modify the definition of "kinky" in the post to better suit this issue.



slaveluci -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:28:55 PM)

I don't see how there's any way possible to tell who is "kinkier" simply by their label.  This is mostly because, as we read here constantly, what a label/title means to one person is very different from what it means to another.  For everyone reading this to even agree on what a masochist, sadist, slave, sub, etc. is would be the first miracle necessary.  Then, you're assuming that everyone is just one of these things.  I personally am at least two of them[;)].  To ask which of these is kinkier is as broad, to me, as asking, "Who is kinkier?  Men or women?" or "Who is kinkier?  Blacks of Whites?"  Just way too broad of a question.  Thirdly, even if every other definition were to be agreed upon, who defines "kinky?"  [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m18.gif[/image], oh geesh.  There's just no right way to answer this because the variables are just too great...............luci



Prismfire -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:30:43 PM)

I will add however that I think the problem with coming out as it were is largely how people approach it... If people treat it as a huge secret  and tend to use the worst possible words to describe thier activities then the chances are good that they will have a negative reaction from it. If they approach it as something different that works for them and dont try to force thier practices and beliefs on people then people tend to take it easier.

There is of course also the topic of location. Even light D/s might been seen as extremely kinky in an amish town of 100 where it will be seen as nothing in say San Francisco.



tanzur -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:35:19 PM)

quote:

For the purposes of this post, "kinky" defaults to the definition, "deviating from ideally vanilla characteristics, including deviations that are not or not entirely sexual."  (Such as, a sadist who had no interest in sexual sadism would be, for the purpose of the definition of this post, still have his sadism count towards his kinkiness.)

I had my answer all ready and then saw the second edit you put here. Now, I have to ask; what would you list as 'ideal vanilla characteristics?"



CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:35:35 PM)

Ah, you've cited three problems.

1.  Labels aren't entirely standardized.
-It's okay.  Even if people would disagree on exactly the line between a sub and a slave, most can typically agree that a slave is the more submissive of the two.  That's close enough for the rough analysis I'm hoping to derive from this.

2.  Judging individuals by arbitrary labels isn't reasonable.
-The labels I'm using are more with regards to aspects.  Such as, a "sadist" is an individual with sadistic tendancies.  I'm more interested in comparing the kinkiness of sadistic tendances to the kinkiness of Dominant tendances, and similar comparisons, than social happenstance, such as if women or men happen to be kinkier.

3.  What's the definition of kinky?
-I attempted a guideline in the OP, though it's still up for interreptation.  Generally, though, even if we're not talking about the exact same thing, it's my hope that ideas will still be expressed.



CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:41:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tanzur

quote:

For the purposes of this post, "kinky" defaults to the definition, "deviating from ideally vanilla characteristics, including deviations that are not or not entirely sexual."  (Such as, a sadist who had no interest in sexual sadism would be, for the purpose of the definition of this post, still have his sadism count towards his kinkiness.)

I had my answer all ready and then saw the second edit you put here. Now, I have to ask; what would you list as 'ideal vanilla characteristics?"


Ack!  Any input would be good, even if it's not exactly conforming to the OP's questions.  Ah wells, I guess it's deleted now?

"Ideal vanilla characteristics" would be the characteristics of having no unusual tendancy to deviate towards either Dominance or submission, sadism or masochism, when compared to the general population.  Sort of like if you had a spectrum to judge one's sadomasochism on and another to judge one's D/s on, an individual with ideal vanilla characteristics would be in the center of each with no tendancy to deviate towards either end.  (So a switch who's extremely masochistic sometimes and extremely sadistic other times wouldn't be ideally vanilla, since while they may average out to the center, they have a strong tendancy to deviate.)  (Such as if a scale of sadomasochism was from -10 to 10, -10 being hardcore masochism and 10 being hardcore sadism, and 0 being neither, ideally vanilla would be a 0.  0, too, from a D/s scale from -10 to 10.)



KnightofMists -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:58:06 PM)

You seem to be assigning an absolute value to Kink A, B etc.  But it is not an absolute value.. Each person will assigned and certain weight (W) to Kink A and thus the K value becomes very complex as a result. 

A second point is that there will be a slide value to A, B etc for each of us.  Today A seems incredible, tomorrow it's boring.

This is of course if you can actually assign any specific value to A, B etc in the first place.  Rather subjective value determination.

In the end.. trying to value How Kinky I am is a pointless execise that has no constructive value as far as I can tell.



tanzur -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 7:59:06 PM)

quote:

Ack!  Any input would be good, even if it's not exactly conforming to the OP's questions.  Ah wells, I guess it's deleted now?

"Ideal vanilla characteristics" would be the characteristics of having no unusual tendancy to deviate towards either Dominance or submission, sadism or masochism, when compared to the general population.  Sort of like if you had a spectrum to judge one's sadomasochism on and another to judge one's D/s on, an individual with ideal vanilla characteristics would be in the center of each with no tendancy to deviate towards either end.  (So a switch who's extremely masochistic sometimes and extremely sadistic other times wouldn't be ideally vanilla, since while they may average out to the center, they have a strong tendancy to deviate.)  (Such as if a scale of sadomasochism was from -10 to 10, -10 being hardcore masochism and 10 being hardcore sadism, and 0 being neither, ideally vanilla would be a 0.  0, too, from a D/s scale from -10 to 10.)

Well, your use of ‘ideal vanilla characteristics’ would never hold up simply because no one can say how the general population lives their life. Putting that aside though and using only what you have so far stated here ( I am sure that you will change as you go on with this thread ); I would have to say that I am not very kinky at all.

I am not a big masochist; I like pain very little and then only certain kinds of pain; I am not a sadist; I am not a dominant; I am not a slave; I am not sure that I would even use the word submissive for myself.

I enjoy relationships in which I can defer authority to another; but not because I feel a deep need to do so. My reasons are much more selfish than that.

I hope this kind of answered your question. With the addition of the explanation; my first answer would have been a bit different.



breatheasone -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:00:39 PM)

Ok...I read the OP twice LOL.... I don't think my kinkyness has anything to do with my being a submissive. I am indeed fairly kinky I'd say LOL...in fact a good majority of what I like I can't discuss here because of the TOS, LOL 



daddyncherry -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:01:24 PM)

Okay i'm gonna give this a shot, thinking that i sort of might know where you may be going with this (how do you like that sentence?lol)

Since there are people in the every day vanilla world who are submissive or dominant in their natures and the sadistic and masochistic seem to be more toward  the actions rather than personality type per se. ...then i would list them in this order, thinking of how a vanilla might view it and be each i will explain my reasoning. (on a scale of least kinky to most kinky)


1. Dominant....Because the idea is typical in big business and in sports etc....It seems the typical ideal of a male by alot of standards (skewed or not)
2. Submissive...Because although typical in the vanilla world, the weaker people are pittied, looked down on, told to get stronger..there for they are a little less accepted....Typical to hear of men bashing women and how they view submissive women with the horrified "I wouldn't let any man do that to me!" attitude.
3. Masochist...It is more relatable with athletes who get the idea of "no pain no gain"....it is still viewed negatively in many ways....thinking of cutters and people who generally have little regard for themselves.
4. Sadist...this would be the most difficult for alot of people to wrap their heads around....the idea that someone would enjoy hurting someone else would make them seem barbaric on one level or like a serial killer on another.....Again, some athletes and others might get this mind set without totally getting freaked but....this would be a more difficult thing to justify to a nilla.

These are just my opinions off the top of my head....maybe they make sense and maybe they don't.

Edited to add : i was going off of the original OP before edit...now i gotta go back and check and see where everything else may fit.



dcnovice -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:03:43 PM)

<hijack>

Sadly, I keep flashing back to those logic questions on the GRE.

Person B is kinkier than Person F.
Person C is less kinky than Person A.
Person E has the potential to be as kinky as anyone else in the room, but only on alternate Saturdays when her ex takes the UMs to the zoo.
Person H can be kinky for pay, but is vanilla on her own time.

What time should the munch start and how do you keep everyone from bringing pasta salad?

Show your work.

</hijack>




CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:03:50 PM)

I'd invite you to reconsider the provided definitions of A and B not as particular kinks but the vulgar synthesis of an individual's kinks with respect to the particular generalizations of sadomasochism and D/s dynamics.

As for variance and tendancy to change, I'd offer two answers.
-There's no intent to judge an individual over the period of their life; a snap-shot of an individual's kinkiness at a particular, hypothetical, short period is quite fine.
-Variances within a chosen period can be defined with the standard deviation as an addition with an appropriate sign.

Still, the kinkiness function is for those who might think of things in terms of mathematical functions; for anyone who doesn't, as I believe most of the population is likely to take a more empiracle approach, trying to fit their thoughts into a function may prove to be a relatively fruitless undertaking.



CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:05:55 PM)

To all:

I'm afraid I'm a college student with much work to do before next week starts.  I'm likely to skim over things for the remainder of the night, but it seems doubtful that I'll be able to respond adequately until some other time, perhaps tommorow afternoon.  I appreciate any thoughts and ideas, and I'll try to address questions before long.



daddyncherry -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:06:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord


Edit 3:

For anyone who perfers mathematical thought (maybe I'm not alone?), I believe I'd find quite a bit of use in examining a "kinkiness" function.

For the purposes of a kinkiness function, two spectra would exist.
-The sadomasochism spectrum, being from -10 to 10, from hardcore masochist to hardcore sadist, 0 being vanilla.
--The value on this spectrum would be A.
-The D/s spectrum, being from -10 to 10, from 24/7 TPE slave with no limits to a 24/7 TPE Master.
--The value on this spectrum would be B.

Kinkiness would be "K".

An example..
Idea:  Sadism, masochism, Dominance and submission are equally kinky, and they're additively cumulative.
Function:  K = |A| + |B|

More variables for other things, or redefinitions of anything, would be welcome.  (Such as a Boolean for gender.)

Edit 4:  As an annex to [Edit 3], the values A and B can be considered the average of their respective RMS values with respect to time, to account for deviation tendancies.  This modification, like even the base definitions, is optional and open to redefining to better suit one's ideas.


OWWWWWWWW! Now my head hurts....and you say you aren't a sadist.



CuriousLord -> RE: How Kinky? D/s vs. M/s. vs. Sadomasochism (11/25/2007 8:09:44 PM)

If you want to see sadism, I could show you my homework..

The Statistics is freaking eight questions and I've been at it since 4!  (Over seven hours!)  I'm up to eleven typed pages.  After this, there's still the Physics and Chemistry.  Freaking homework..



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