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Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:27:21 AM   
frm14slv


Posts: 16
Joined: 10/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm sure everyone would agree that a submissive and/or slave must have implicit trust his/her dominant, Master or Mistress.

Would there ever be a time and/or place for the dominant to order their submissive to engage in an act of deceit?

As a submissive, what would you think if your dominant ordered you to engage in an act of deceit?

As a dominant, would you ever order your submissive to deceive someone?

P.S. FYI: I do not share my bdsm lifestyle with my family and vanilla friends, so in that regard, I, too, engage in deceit. The applicable type of deceit I am referring to is more serious and key to the trust that is necessary to a good bdsm relationship between a dominant and submissive.


< Message edited by frm14slv -- 11/27/2007 10:46:47 AM >

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:31:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Deceit does not necessarily mean to lie. It can mean the omission of the truth, and yes I would be "deceitful" for my Daddy if he wanted me to be with certain people. Lying is not always bad either, and there are certain people we do not owe the truth to. For example I would lie to his family about WIITWD if he told me to, and I would not feel badly about that. I would lie to his boss about this or my boss about this if I was ordered to, and I would not feel badly about this.

So, yes I would be deceitful in certain circumstances, but not all circumstances.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to frm14slv)
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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:34:30 AM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		i would have to know what the act of deceit is ?exactly what is being asked ?

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:35:54 AM   
frm14slv


Posts: 16
Joined: 10/22/2004
Status: offline 		juliaoceania,

What would you think if your partner asked you to deceive someone else as if you wanted the other person to become your new dominant?


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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:37:40 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frm14slv

As a submissive, what would you think if your dominant ordered you to engage in an act of deceit?

As a dominant, would you ever order your submissive to deceive someone?

What brand of deceit do you have in mind?

I am being ordered to tell his grandmother that we just ate lunch so she doesn't make us a meal when we have to hit the road soon or am I being ordered to try and steal something?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:39:16 AM   
frm14slv


Posts: 16
Joined: 10/22/2004
Status: offline 		azropedntied & AquaticSub,

See my 2nd post above.

< Message edited by frm14slv -- 11/27/2007 10:46:20 AM >

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:40:47 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I would tell them they are fucking drama queen and never to call me again.

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:45:52 AM   
decstorm37


Posts: 95
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frm14slv

juliaoceania,

What would you think if your partner asked you to deceive someone else as if you wanted the other person to become your new dominant?


How could you start a new relationship with a new Dom if you are starting out by deceiving them? How could the new Dom have any trust in anything you say?

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 10:49:11 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frm14slv

juliaoceania,

What would you think if your partner asked you to deceive someone else as if you wanted the other person to become your new dominant?



Why on earth would he want me to pretend I want someone else to become my new dominant?

I just wouldn't do it. He doesn't have the right to mind fuck those who have not consented and I won't help him do so.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to frm14slv)
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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 11:07:01 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		This goes into these relationships are 50/50 and deceit and trust are two volatile words. Of course I have deceived another person in my Masters orders, but no I would never deceive another person that would intentionally cause harm. Yes, I would and have done being ordered to deceive someone where they benefit or means nothing to them. If that was an order that would cause harm to someone else, which has never happen to me, it would be a “we need to talk” moment part of the relationship.

If my Master has a problem with my value system then he has a problem with who I am.

That being said I still would need a heck of a lot more info to form a specific opinion on any case by case example.


< Message edited by toservez -- 11/27/2007 11:08:04 AM >

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I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 11:22:17 AM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		I would say unless your james bond or another secret agent i would decline as it is not me .Why would i wish to hurt another  doing those actions ,i personaly  would not engage in that at all .

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 11:24:59 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frm14slv


What would you think if your partner asked you to deceive someone else as if you wanted the other person to become your new dominant?



The words "no fucking way" come to mind.

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marie.


I give good agita.









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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 12:28:45 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frm14slv

juliaoceania,

What would you think if your partner asked you to deceive someone else as if you wanted the other person to become your new dominant?



He would not do that, so I do not know how to answer that question. It just wouldn't happen.

How would I feel about that? I would feel like he did not value me much

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 12:28:52 PM   
IamJustMe2C


Posts: 94
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		Just wait........
        This is where I would say use your MORAL judgement. do you want a new Dom? Do you want 2 Dominants to dominate you at the same time? Is it one of your limits? Slave or sub Dom or Domme we all have limits. Does this cross yours is the question? How do you feel about it? To stay in the closet to the nilla world is one thing. To tell a whit lie so someone dosent cook or you dont have to stay longer at there house is another but what you are talking about is a whole different ball game. When you do these things put your self in the other persons shoes and ask your self this simple question.

How would you feel if this happened to you and what would you do if it did happen?

If you can live with the answer that you come up with then by all means go ahead and do it. If not then stop. But ask your self this next question.

What kind of person are you to go ahead and do what ever it is that you had to ask your self the first question?  Are you a good person? Are you a better person for doing so? Or Are you going to regret this in some way shape or form?

Remember you are the one that has to look at your self in the mirror in the morning and live with your self. Master telling you to or not you still have a mind of your own NEVER be afraid to use it.

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Submission is a gift unlike any other. The one who can sculpt that gift in a graceful manner is a Master.

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 1:32:06 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The applicable type of deceit I am referring to is more serious and key to the trust that is necessary to a good bdsm relationship between a dominant and submissive.


R,
Deceitful people need to rationalize their lies and deceit. There is always a reason for the deception. "Good intent" is often the most common. Its represents either they lack the ability to achieve their goals though any other method, or their ultimate goal is better off kept secret to their partner. There isn't any billboard outside our place announcing the nature of the relationship that I have with beth, but anyone who asks gets the truth. Even something so simple as the answer to the question "what do you do?" gets an honest reply. beth says something to the effect of; "I serve him." or "my job is pleasing him."

Honesty is a desired trait that should be compromised as infrequently as possible. Having enough confidence to represent yourself without deceit should be a personal goal for everyone. Any "order" pointed to beth on this would be to never deceive anyone and answer any question honestly. My only caveat to her was to first ask the questioner if they really wanted to know the answer. If you don't want to know don't ask. If you ask, be prepared for an honest response. Its a much easier way to get through life compared to having to keep track and have a different response depending on your audience. You end up deceiving yourself, which is by far the worse deceit a person can commit.

Someone rationalizing deceit in a relationship is someone to avoid. Unlike a broken clock that is right twice a day, you can never trust when a deceitful person is ever "right". The problem with trying to trust someone who accepts deceit or encourages it as an ongoing part of your relationship is that you never really know when that deception is being pointed to you. What you can trust and rely upon in that case is that you can never trust them.

Stipulating to casual exceptions, the question is at what level does the "white lie" progress to deceit? Here again, rationalization and perspective comes into play. However everyone really knows. The "fine line" in actuality is a reference to group deceit. However, I think I can provide an example based upon your "family & vanilla friends" reference. Introducing your slave as your girlfriend to your 80 year old grandmother qualifies as relatively harmless. Introducing your slave as a friend from work to your wife is deceit.

(in reply to frm14slv)
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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 1:37:25 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		He's angry at this other guy and wants you to manipulate the other guy in order to get revenge. I'd be disgusted by his immaturity and passive aggressive behavior and would let him know that. But I don't get involved with immature types.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 1:38:04 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		So if someone wants to harm you with the truth then you tell them anyways, even if they are not owed the truth...

IE ... A stranger asks beth if she is alone when she is walking on the beach or if she is expecting someone... even if she is not expecting someone she should respond truthfully and let this person, a complete stranger, know her business... and mind you, ignoring the question could be just as fatal as responding truthfully.

I took a self defense course that taught me to lie, my Daddy paid for it. He would expect me to lie to keep myself from harm... but that is just us... others will do as fits their "morals"... who knows, my lack of them may help me survive one day.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 1:58:14 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

So if someone wants to harm you with the truth then you tell them anyways, even if they are not owed the truth...
I've never been harmed by truth and am appreciative if anyone points out any truth I relied upon to be a lie. Besides, what vocal answer, deceitful or truthful, would save you from a visually confirmed empty beach? The deceit here is believing a lie keeps can keep you safe. If ever beth were to put herself into such a vulnerable position I would hope she screamed "NO!" very loudly and continue to scream it as she got herself to a more public place or until the condition changed. I don't see how saying you are "expecting someone soon" would have the effect of intimidating someone to leave.

quote:

I took a self defense course that taught me to lie, my Daddy paid for it. He would expect me to lie to keep myself from harm... but that is just us... others will do as fits their "morals"... who knows, my lack of them may help me survive one day.
I appreciate and respect that difference between us. Personally, if I found myself needing to lie to achieve a goal; I first reassess the value of the goal and the change the method - not rationalize deceit.

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 2:04:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I will tell the experts in the self defense industry what you have stated... somehow I have more faith and trust in what they say will protect me, but you know, they only study real life self defense scenarios over the last 2 decades or longer...

As far as never being in a situation requiring a person to defend themselves... I suppose there will never be a break in when you are not home... or perhaps you never leave the house.. and I suppose beth should tell the intruder that you will be gone for hours and she is completely alone with no one expected to come home anytime in the near future. And I suppose there is always someone within hearing distance that can hear her screams... I suppose nothing could ever happen that would convince you to use deceit... even someone that plans on taking your life or the life of your slave... I don't know, I may even tell a rapist I had AIDS if I thought it might save me..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Trust in your Dominant - 11/27/2007 2:37:49 PM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		My Master would not do it. He might mess with my head for a minute but the actual doing it..........not a chance.  Its right up there with lifes too short and that takes way too much energy. He wouldn't engage in that kind of low down crap anyway.

(in reply to frm14slv)
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