RE: Hiding behind domination

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daddyncherry -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 12:52:24 PM)
The way my Master/Daddy looks at it, and it makes sense to me...also sort of what was implied by Stephann's post... Atleast on a sexual level, and i'll kind of just stick with that.... Knowing that he is in control of it makes me more able to open up and let go of past hang ups..... Do i take responsibility? Well, i take responsibility that i gave him the control, i take responsibilty for my actions....what is does though by putting him in control is ABSOLVE me of GUILT.... So yes i am responsible but, if i am accepted by him, encouraged by him to do XY or Z then i won't feel bad about it or guilty for it.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 12:57:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin In reading a few threads here I have found instances where sub/slaves recounted something that they did under the instruction of another that many people replied they felt were wrong. Just as an example, exposing unassuming people non-consensually to their kink. Certainly not limited to that example though. When others questioned or gave their opinions that they felt these actions were wrong, the answer seems to always be along the lines of "I was following orders" or "I was doing his will" and as a sub/slave "following his instruction/will is my only concern, that is my only responsibility". To me, that seems to suggest that they detach their own responsibility or shift that responsibility to the Dominant. I am one of those people who answered that way. I do what I am told to do. If I was hauled off to jail for it, then that would be a consequence. My Master knows how I feel about exposing others to what we do, and he decides from there. I am his object to use, Erin. He is going to do with me as he desires. I do not call it "hiding" behind his domination; I call it submitting to his will.

BeingChewsie -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 12:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Can you justify doing something that you know is wrong by saying you were only following instruction? Do you feel that it absolves you of your responsibility in it? R holds himself responsible for any order he gives to people under him. I'm responsible for the decision I made in becoming his all those years ago. I don't think it absolves me of anything in other peoples eyes, but I wouldn't need personal absolution or feel I had done something wrong in that obedience.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 12:58:47 PM)
I like the way you put that, Chewsie

FullfigRIMaam -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 1:05:06 PM)
My response to this is that it's difficult to say with absolute certainty if I were speaking from a sub's perspective. True that adults own their choices, but within these types of relationships, I would feel in part responsible for my sub's choices... For best outcomes, I think it's important to be in a relationship with one who shares your value system, at least on the more important/legal matters. M

marieToo -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 1:18:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Can you justify doing something that you know is wrong by saying you were only following instruction? Do you feel that it absolves you of your responsibility in it? Absolutely not. Ultimately I choose who I submit to, and I would not give myself to a dominant who I do not believe to be reasonable, sensible and respectable. Examples like being ordered to deceive another person, involving unwitting unconsenting people in our kink, doing something that is highly immoral (to me) would not be an acceptable or prideful way for me to serve. Again, it all leads back to the fact that I wouldn't find myself in submission to a person of that element.

Machts -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 1:24:22 PM)
I'm a guy, not some stupid role dreamed up by a bunch of perverts to justify thier kink as "superior". So I just take the same sort of responsibility that my society expects of any adult male.

KindLadyGrey -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 1:54:02 PM)
Godwin's Law Time! It wasn't okay for the Nazis, and it sure as hell isn't okay for any other human being. Everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. If a dominant is asking you to do something you believe is morally wrong, this is exactly the situation you have a safeword for. Don't have a safeword? Negotiate one, NOW.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:00:26 PM)
I believe we are all adults. Being submissive or dominant does not absolve you of your own choices. Yes...you can submit to your dominant's will but hopefully, you will choose a dominant that...when he gives you a command...has a great enough knowledge of you, society, and the laws that govern us that the command he gives you to follow will not place you in a position of having to submit to his will or disobey because he has just told you to do something that goes against everything you believe in and/or that society will hold you legally responsible for. Ultimately though...stating that "I was just following instructions" would not wash with me as a judge or a jurist either.

MadRabbit -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:15:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Can you justify doing something that you know is wrong by saying you were only following instruction? Do you feel that it absolves you of your responsibility in it? Nope, nadda, never. There is things that I can order a slave to do that make me a man not worth serving. If I order her to do them, what kind of character do I have as an Owner? If she followed them and betrayed her own honor of her values to do things at the whim of a man who lacked the values and character to not cross that line, what kind of person is the slave? And this is why, in the scope of rational thinking and reasoning, I consider the concept of "No Limits" to be nothing more than a psycho-head trip of slaves and Masters. This is also why I consider someone would literally do anything for me to be the worst kind of slave to own.

decstorm37 -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:20:30 PM)
Even though my Master owns me.....I have to look at myself in the mirror and live with the choices i make. It comes down my morals as a human. So my answer is no.

Stephann -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:24:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie R holds himself responsible for any order he gives to people under him. I'm responsible for the decision I made in becoming his all those years ago. I don't think it absolves me of anything in other peoples eyes, but I wouldn't need personal absolution or feel I had done something wrong in that obedience. quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I like the way you put that, Chewsie She's good at that, isn't she? Captain Obvious

simplewhispers -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:29:27 PM)
Nope

MadRabbit -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:39:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Can you justify doing something that you know is wrong by saying you were only following instruction? Do you feel that it absolves you of your responsibility in it? R holds himself responsible for any order he gives to people under him. I'm responsible for the decision I made in becoming his all those years ago. I don't think it absolves me of anything in other peoples eyes, but I wouldn't need personal absolution or feel I had done something wrong in that obedience. In a purely theoretical context for the purposes of logical discussion, would you not need any personal absolution in doing something that was deeply morally wrong to another entity? Like...shooting someone in the head? Drowning a small cat? Kidnapping a young adult for sexual misuse? Would obedience in service to your Master absolve you of any feelings of guilt for these misdeeds commited by your hand? Or would you leave the relationship and find a new Master? If you left the relationship, then isn't the contigency of your absolution of wrong based solely on him making decisions that don't greatly conflict with your morals? And if you left the relationship based on being ordered to admit horrible actions, then won't it be safe to say that your actions are still your responsibility and whether or not he "claims" responsibility for them means very little? Further more, what affirmation does his claim to responsibility have if the offended party doesn't hold him responsible? Edited : Because I cannot spell.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:52:34 PM)
MR, but the things you bring up in such a context are things that one would think one would know about the Master prior to ever wanting to submit to him. I actually asked my Master about some of the most extreme things, prior to asking for his ownership. I did not want to be owned by someone who would make me harm others - particularly children and the elderly. I did not want to be owned by someone who wanted to ultimately destroy me. These are things that are explored before committing to the relationship. Master and I are in current discussions about the future, and our age difference, and his health, and what happens should his body and/or mind deteriorate to a such a place where he might see himself as ineffective as a Master. One subject I asked him to please think on, is what if his mind significantly alters and he orders something of me that I know within my heart he would never have wanted me to do? How will he want me to handle that? Should I disobey him at the time, knowing that when he was mentally stable he would not have wanted that of me? Does he want me to do it anyway? Does it depend on certain circumstances? These are really important questions. If today, while of sound mind, he tells me to abide by his current principles if ever in doubt in the future, then that is what I will do. Sometimes your posts seem to imply that there is no thought on the slave's part when she agrees to submit to all things from her Master. In my case, anyway, that is simply untrue. You might find me to be one of the worst slaves to own, and that's really ok because you should not own someone who does not fit your vision of a good slave. But the very few times I have gone outside my own moral code, it's been with some really instense conversations between he & I, and they weren't really enormous "immoralities" to me that would cause me any emotional destruction. There have been times, however, he considered having me do something, and when he asked my thoughts on it, I told him such a thing would be quite distressing to me. He evaluated it and eventually changed his course. Submission is not always blind, and striving for complete obedience does not mean there are no emotional and intellectual discussions about it. Life just isn't that black and white. Perhaps you don't see it as black & white either and I am misreading what you are expressing. In any case, I think many situations are a lot more complex than they appear in print.

orfunboi -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:57:37 PM)
i couldn't, if it goes against what i believe, then i would have to tell them no. i have to live with my self. i know some that have no problem however. My ex roommate told me, he would pay me the money he owed, but his Mistress wouldn't let him. Yea right.

charlotte12 -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 2:58:25 PM)
note i used "her" and "she" because i find it easier than him/her and s/he....and...well... i'm female...[:)] No, i do not think it absolves the submissive of responsibility. Neither does her doing something she finds wrong suggest that she has any desire to be absolved. I realize you are probably talking about people who try to get away with things because their "Dom said to." But a couple posts have made me consider the fact that perhaps obeying an order the submissive considers wrong does not make her a less responsible person so long as she is willing to accept the consequences of her actions. I find it more repugnant that a submissive would try to blame* another for her choice to obey than that she might make that choice. I always expect to receive the consequences of my actions. Whether that is a punishment for disobeying or something imposed on me by the society around me. I respect people who gracefully acknowledge what they've done and embrace the consequences and i try to live up to that (though i dont' always succeed.) charlotte

Stephann -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 3:05:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit In a purely theoretical context for the purposes of logical discussion, would you not need any personal absolution in doing something that was deeply morally wrong to another entity? Like...shooting someone in the head? Drowning a small cat? Kidnapping a young adult for sexual misuse? Would obedience in service to your Master absolve you of any feelings of guilt for these misdeeds commited by your hand? Or would you leave the relationship and find a new Master? If you left the relationship, then isn't the contigency of your absolution of wrong based solely on him making decisions that don't greatly conflict with your morals? And if you left the relationship based on being ordered to admit horrible actions, then won't it be safe to say that your actions are still your responsibility and whether or not he "claims" responsibility for them means very little? Further more, what affirmation does his claim to responsibility have if the offended party doesn't hold him responsible? Edited : Because I cannot spell. Hiya MR, This is actually something charlotte and I discussed over a lunch of pizza today. I think the problem with these sorts of hypothetical situations, is that they're a bit like asking "How do you see about having last rites performed if a meteor struck the earth and we all died." Or "what happens if a woman's married to a racist, and she's raped and impregnated by a black man?" They're possibilities, sure, but the likelihood of such situations makes their application nonsensical. I expect if I told charlotte to do something horrible and unspeakable, she'd refuse. I wouldn't want to own a slave who couldn't refuse such a horrific act. She wouldn't have begged to be mine, if she believed I was someone who would require she perform such an act. My demand that she do so would probably trigger a conversation that could result in her refusal of consent. It would mean I'm not the man she knows, or once knew. The reason she'd revoke consent, is because she would, in fact, be stepping so grossly outside of the boundaries of what she expects of herself, that no amount of absolution on my part would settle the issue. So, the question is on par with a game of chicken. It's not a question of "if" someone blinks, but rather a question of "who", "when," and "how close" before someone does. Someone talked about other people holding the submissive responsible. As my girl pointed out, obeying me doesn't free her from social obligations and responsibilities. It's not unlike the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice.) In living in Maryland, I was subject to the laws of the city of Oxen Hill, the state of Maryland, federal statutes, the constitution, and to the UCMJ. If I am ordered to shoot a man in combat in Maryland, I am technically committing murder. If I don't shoot, I am disobeying a direct order. I can be punished, technically, under conflicting laws. Obedience doesn't mitigate moral or social responsibility, it might only absolve a feeling of guilt. When I belt one of my girls, I am breaking the law (assault.) I am morally and legally responsible for breaking that law. Just because I said it's ok to do, doesn't mean it is. This is part of being aware of, and consenting to a risky, kinky activity (Risk Aware Consensual Kink, or RACK.) Stephan

charlotte12 -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 3:06:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit This is also why I consider someone would literally do anything for me to be the worst kind of slave to own. To me this suggests blind obedience. I think there's a difference between obedience and blind obedience. There are things that my Master could order me to do that i would hate to do. By saying that i don't have the right to refuse i'm not saying that i would plaster on a fake smile, say "yes Master" and go do it. If i felt that we had not communicated about an issue i might have with it enough in the past i would respectfully request that i be allowed to voice some concerns. Being the man that he is he would most likely listen to my concerns and might amend his choice based on their validity. Sometimes i have concerns that he knows he can push me through and if i was allowed to constantly say no i would not have grown as i have. However he also knows that if he makes me do something that gets me arrested or makes me disgusted with myself that he will have to be putting the pieces together later.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Hiding behind domination (11/29/2007 3:06:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 note i used "her" and "she" because i find it easier than him/her and s/he....and...well... i'm female...[:)] No, i do not think it absolves the submissive of responsibility. Neither does her doing something she finds wrong suggest that she has any desire to be absolved. I realize you are probably talking about people who try to get away with things because their "Dom said to." But a couple posts have made me consider the fact that perhaps obeying an order the submissive considers wrong does not make her a less responsible person so long as she is willing to accept the consequences of her actions. I find it more repugnant that a submissive would try to blame* another for her choice to obey than that she might make that choice. I like the way you put that. Sometimes for me, it's easier to explain things in short-hand on a message board then to delve into the personal issues and discussions that have gone on behind the scenes. So, when asked about why I might expose my body to a stranger, I will say "Because I was told to" rather than to explain some extremely personal conversations, considerations, and resolutions that occurred along the way. Sometimes a person says "Because I was told to" simply because it is easier, and nobody's business as to the complexities that lie beneath. If this is seen as hiding, then that's only because those who are watching can see no further than that.

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