Offering a Collar (Full Version)

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Stephann -> Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:18:34 AM)

So, I didn't want to hijack the "Under Consideration" thread, but a short comment here reminded me of something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

I won't offer a collar unless I feel we can both make that life comittment. 


This isn't a judgment on those who do, but I don't, and never intend to 'offer a collar.'

I do have rather extensive conversations about what a collar is, what it means to me, and what it would mean to 'us' since obviously it can have very different meanings to different people.

I do illustrate that if there's to be a collaring, it comes at the explicit request of my partner; that (for me) being collared represents surrendering the right to say 'no.'  For me, begging of a collar represents a clear and tacit consent to the relationship we are engaging in.  Thus, I cannot imagine 'offering' such a choice.  If it isn't something she doesn't feel compelled to literally beg for, I believe that it shouldn't be given.

Thoughts?

Stephan



RCdc -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:24:00 AM)

Hello Stephann
 
In essence, I can see your thought and agree.  My only other thought though is that if it came to the point where collaring becomes a possibility, then that possibility would have been discussed as to whether it was something expected in the relationship at some point, so a dominant collaring another means that the s-type would be at the point to not refuse it anyway.(If that makes any sense?)
 
Peace
the.dark.



octavia -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:27:14 AM)

Interesting Stephan...

my perception has been a bit different.  I feel that were I to ask or beg, or request to be collared I would be out of line?  I guess for me it feels like it should be brought up by my Dominant.  At his discretion and time, and then I have the option to accept or not.   It would just feel weird to say "ok, collar me now please."  What if he isn't ready?

I agree totally that much conversation should happen about collars and the meaning each person attributes to them first.  They can and do mean very different things.  
I was recently presented with a pink, 99cent, goodwill collar.
It is a very meaningful symbol for me, one though, that most people probably would not relate too. [;)] 
btw, we did have to talk about it,  because initially I thought he was offereing it to me as a symbol of something totally different than what he was.   

just my humble opinion,
oct



juliaoceania -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:28:48 AM)

I can ask for a collar all day and night, it does not mean I will ever get one. I am in this headspace, collars mean less to me every day, I have never had one, and I never care if I get one.

If he does not ask, I will never have it around my neck, and I am more than OK with that. He has collared others before me, and seeing he is not with them anymore, I do not see it as a sacred thing... the funny thing is, he kinda does see it as a lifelong commitment. Or should I say he wants it to be one.

Will I ever be collared... who knows. I put more importance on marriage to be honest with you. To me THAT is a commitment... collars mean nothing in comparison to me. I am not saying that they are meaningless, but to me they are almost meaningless.... other than the meaning that he attaches to them. Since he is the one that attaches all the meaning to it, he can ask... or not.



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:29:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

So, I didn't want to hijack the "Under Consideration" thread, but a short comment here reminded me of something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream

I won't offer a collar unless I feel we can both make that life comittment. 


This isn't a judgment on those who do, but I don't, and never intend to 'offer a collar.'

I do have rather extensive conversations about what a collar is, what it means to me, and what it would mean to 'us' since obviously it can have very different meanings to different people.

I do illustrate that if there's to be a collaring, it comes at the explicit request of my partner; that (for me) being collared represents surrendering the right to say 'no.'  For me, begging of a collar represents a clear and tacit consent to the relationship we are engaging in.  Thus, I cannot imagine 'offering' such a choice.  If it isn't something she doesn't feel compelled to literally beg for, I believe that it shouldn't be given.

Thoughts?

Stephan

Stephan,

We think a like here.  And that's just based on the way I taught and what works with me (we all use what works best for us).  I hate to use the term Old Guard because I know it pushes buttons but when I decided to learn from a group of people who considered their style "Old Guard" they shared with me that to them, the commitment of a person surrendering is the first step so it's important that they show that by requesting (or petitioning) for a collar.  While I don't believe all aspects of the fact or fiction of Old Guard protocol this is one that has always sat well with me and my "philosophies" of power exchange relationships.  While I know that many people like MystressDream are serious about using the term "under consideration" and because of my experience with so many snerts that use it as pissing on the tree, I've never really liked the term. I acknowledge that after reading the UC thread that's changed a bit.

I can certainly put it out there that I am interested in a power exchange relationship but it's up to the submissive that wants to serve me to petition to be collared and we go from there.

Z-

Very good start of a thread.



Stephann -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:36:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: octavia

Interesting Stephan...

my perception has been a bit different.  I feel that were I to ask or beg, or request to be collared I would be out of line?  I guess for me it feels like it should be brought up by my Dominant.  At his discretion and time, and then I have the option to accept or not.   It would just feel weird to say "ok, collar me now please."  What if he isn't ready?



See, I don't think I'd be inclined to give a collar to a partner who casually said "ok, collar me now, please."  I'd put this question on par with asking someone to marry you, at least in terms of the type of communication and intentions it illustrates.

If I were to ask a woman to marry me, I'd make damn sure I wanted to marry her first.  I'd learn what I felt I needed to know about her, I'd reflect on what being married to that woman would mean, and I would have enough conversations with her, to determine if she felt the same.  Thus, when the time for me to propose actually came, I seriously doubt it would be a shock, and I'd be reasonably assured that she'd accept.

julia,

Obviously, collars mean different things to different people; it's why I wrapped my opening post with lots of "this is what I think"s and "for me"s and "In my opinion"s.  If you don't care if you wear a collar, obviously it isn't an issue that applies to your dynamic in the way it does for me.  For the record, charlotte wears a collar, and Tigrita isn't likely to ever wear one. 

Stephan



octavia -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:45:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann



See, I don't think I'd be inclined to give a collar to a partner who casually said "ok, collar me now, please."  I'd put this question on par with asking someone to marry you, at least in terms of the type of communication and intentions it illustrates.

If I were to ask a woman to marry me, I'd make damn sure I wanted to marry her first.  I'd learn what I felt I needed to know about her, I'd reflect on what being married to that woman would mean, and I would have enough conversations with her, to determine if she felt the same.  Thus, when the time for me to propose actually came, I seriously doubt it would be a shock, and I'd be reasonably assured that she'd accept.

... 

Stephan


I think this is a reflection of how I veiw collars.  I also think it's a reflection of how my shemes are effected by my culture.  I veiw a collar as just a little less serious than a wedding ring.  Therfore, I attribute the same protocols to it.  I would never beg a man to marry me, therefore I would never beg a man to collar me.  Either he wants me or he doesn't.  And frankly, I feel it takes some time to make that determination.  This is a great topic Stephan, thanks for bringing it up.  I always find it interesting to rub up against my own preconceived ideas about things and question them.  
hanging around these forums however, I have learned that people view collars (and every damn thing) very differently.  Some people feel that it is something that happens at the start of a relationship, to denote the relationship that is to follow, while others feel it happens well into a relationship to signify a new deeper level of commitment.  Some play before a collar, some don't and all stages in between. I think it is worth repeating that the most important thing, with something so variable is to make sure both people involved are on the same page.

oct



toservez -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:46:54 AM)

I tend to agree with you. I always read collar topics but hardly ever post anything. To me if I was asked what type of thing that we tend to formalize in this life that in essence is really totally about person preferences to me I would list this topic number one.

I am one that when looking for a owner would communicate with a potential owner real quickly that I would never beg for a collar or for anything asking for commitment on such a one sided thing. I understand and respect the symbolism of a collar but I do not put that symbolism above my own eyes and communication with my other or think if I get a symbol like a collar or even a wedding ring that my relationship has therefore reached some specific destination. Quite simply if I did not think my Master was not in the same area of commitment and feelings toward me as my own I could not be his. So begging for one would be insincerity on both of our ends which could not do any good.

I just think this is such a to each their own topic.



Vanatru -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 9:47:24 AM)

Stephann,
Or it might be a matter of loosing the meaning for the words. Like, I also mentioned offering a collar, but in fact, wisty was begging me long before I actually collared her and it had nothing to do with me not thinking she wasn't serious about it, but making sure it was the right thing for both of us and I was willing to put in that commitment.



Stephann -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 10:10:09 AM)

Again, I want the underlying understanding to be that a collar only represents what it represents to those in a relationship.  There's no universal right or wrong, I'm only offering my views on how I use them, why, and how.

quote:

ORIGINAL: octavia

I think this is a reflection of how I veiw collars.  I also think it's a reflection of how my shemes are effected by my culture.  I veiw a collar as just a little less serious than a wedding ring.  Therfore, I attribute the same protocols to it.  I would never beg a man to marry me, therefore I would never beg a man to collar me.  Either he wants me or he doesn't.  And frankly, I feel it takes some time to make that determination.  This is a great topic Stephan, thanks for bringing it up.  I always find it interesting to rub up against my own preconceived ideas about things and question them.  
hanging around these forums however, I have learned that people view collars (and every damn thing) very differently.  Some people feel that it is something that happens at the start of a relationship, to denote the relationship that is to follow, while others feel it happens well into a relationship to signify a new deeper level of commitment.  Some play before a collar, some don't and all stages in between. I think it is worth repeating that the most important thing, with something so variable is to make sure both people involved are on the same page.

oct


One of the things I discussed with charlotte was I firmly believed that a person can only learn to be a slave, as a slave, in a collar.  No small part of my perspective on Master/slave relationships was influenced by my experiences in the military, and I look back and firmly believe that one cannot learn to become a Marine, Soldier, Sailor, etc from a book or from theory.  Daily application of the values and expectations under rigorous environments is what enables the mental shifts and changes that take place to permit growth in the areas necessary to perform their duties.  One can certainly read every book on slavery, read the forums, and fantasize about what it might be like, but until the collar is on the neck, there's simply no way to understand what slavery actually means.

Thus, when charlotte and I decided we knew we wanted to pursue a relationship of this caliber, it was up to her to beg for it.  Anything less, for me, might have constantly left me wondering if it was something she truly wanted, or if she was just trying to make me happy at the time she begged for it.  Since then, the reminder that she surrendered unconditionally to me, has helped carry her through some of the more difficult choices in her submission.  So far, it seems to have worked well for us.

Stephan



IrishMist -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 10:44:35 AM)

quote:

I put more importance on marriage to be honest with you. To me THAT is a commitment... collars mean nothing in comparison to me.

LOL this kind of made me laugh. I am the exact opposite. I place more significance on the collar than I do a wedding ring...of course, the one time I was married, he had to give me an ultimatium...I just have never placed much emphasis on marriage; maybe it's because growing up, most of those who I knew who were married never took the vows very seriously.

/shrug

Who knows lol



AquaticSub -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 10:47:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

If it isn't something she doesn't feel compelled to literally beg for, I believe that it shouldn't be given.



To me, a collar is the physical symbol of a strong commitment and bond between us that will hopefully be lifelong. A knitting of our lives together if you will forgive my tendacy towards romance. As I think along those lines, I see the collar and the engagement/wedding ring as being similar - If I have to beg you for it, you don't really want me in your life.

Edited for typo



Stephann -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 10:57:22 AM)

Hiya Aquatic,

See I totally understand where you (and others) are coming from on the issue.  "If I have to beg you to be with you, I feel like you don't care enough about me to have me."

For us, my colling her demonstrates that I do, in fact, care enough to assume authority and responsibility for her life, her whole life, with all the good and bad it brings.  If I didn't care enough, frankly, I wouldn't want that corresponding responsibility.

For me, it's a bit of a reversal of the old 'man kneeling and proposing.'  When he's offering a rock on his knees, asking her to marry him, he doesn't have any assurance that she'll be delighted and say yes.  For me, that seems to be an incredibly beautiful, submissive demonstration of devotion.  The begging of a collar, then, demonstrates deep devotion on the slaves part, saying she's willing to expose herself in a way that show's her profound desire to obey.

I don't expect any woman to beg my collar without being reasonably aware of the strength of my feelings for her.  I've only collared three women in my life.  Each one did it in the fashion I taught them.  I wouldn't have taught her how to beg a collar from me, if I didn't expect to place on on her neck when she did. 

Regards,

Stephan



thetammyjo -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:02:48 AM)

I've never "offered a collar" or been "begged" to give someone a collar.

The collar is merely a symbol.

I'm fairly formal in my approach so after getting to know someone I would train them in a formal process -- they have to apply for the position and then I (we really) evaluate to see if training is a good idea.

Only after formal training would we sit down to re-evaluate things and decide if anything further should happen. I have a standard contract for me and my household but some of it is negotiable and if we desire something further, we negotiate. At the point of signing an ownership contract we would have a lockable collar, usually thus far designed specifically for the slave.

The collar however is not the make or break of our dynamic, our honor and mutual work maintains that. The physical object called a collar has only as much value as our work on our dynamic gives it.

That said collars are almost a fetish item for me personally. However getting Fox's ears pierced to mark year 7 of my owning him means far more to me.



batshalom -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:05:31 AM)

I can see both sides of it.

Stephann, I think I get you in that she begs and you have the authority to say no, instead of you offering and giving her the power. Am I close to understanding you?

If I were a Dom, nothing would touch me more deeply than my sub or slave begging me to collar her. It would mean to me that she is serious about the dynamic and commitment and would be indicative of her desire to be with me.

Since I'm a sub, however, I understand what it's like to be uncertain if begging a collar would be out of place, or would make me feel as though he didn't care enough about me to offer it. Fear of rejection, at least for me.



Stephann -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:07:50 AM)

Hi TammyJo,

Sounds like a great system.  For me, I don't make use of formal contracts, and don't enjoy an overly formal type of interaction; thus, for me, the formal "I submit to your will" and "I accept your submission" are built into that collar, vice the contract.  I do agree, though, it isn't the hunk of metal on her neck that makes our breaks our relationship; Tigrita doesn't and probably never will wear a formal collar.  Thus, it isn't the collar that keeps us together.

Stephan



MystressDream -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:10:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Hiya Aquatic,

See I totally understand where you (and others) are coming from on the issue.  "If I have to beg you to be with you, I feel like you don't care enough about me to have me."

For us, my colling her demonstrates that I do, in fact, care enough to assume authority and responsibility for her life, her whole life, with all the good and bad it brings.  If I didn't care enough, frankly, I wouldn't want that corresponding responsibility.

For me, it's a bit of a reversal of the old 'man kneeling and proposing.'  When he's offering a rock on his knees, asking her to marry him, he doesn't have any assurance that she'll be delighted and say yes.  For me, that seems to be an incredibly beautiful, submissive demonstration of devotion.  The begging of a collar, then, demonstrates deep devotion on the slaves part, saying she's willing to expose herself in a way that show's her profound desire to obey.

I don't expect any woman to beg my collar without being reasonably aware of the strength of my feelings for her.  I've only collared three women in my life.  Each one did it in the fashion I taught them.  I wouldn't have taught her how to beg a collar from me, if I didn't expect to place on on her neck when she did. 

Regards,

Stephan



So... in essence.... you have offered the collar when you trained them in how to beg for it.  <grin>   We could really get into semantics here also... which is customary in these discussions.
 
When I offer a collar, the meaning of that collar has been discussed in detail over the course of the relationship developing.  During those discussions, the slave has certainly voiced his desire or lack of when it comes to that kind of comittment.  By the time I offer it, it is really my decision to make that comittment.  He has already voiced his desires for it.
 
Maybe the fact that we get SOOOOOOO many emails from prospective slaves who BEG for a collar, that it has tainted my perspective on it.  All I know is I am the one who will make the decision to enter into that type of comittment.  That decision is based, as I said, on lengthy conversations and time to develop the relationship to the point where I feel a lifetime comittment can be made.  By the time I make that decision, I know he wishes to be collared.
 
As far as the seriousness of a collar, I do consider it a lifetime comittment, even more powerful than a marriage. 
 
 



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:13:26 AM)

IN the past while doing some research I came across several interesting stories about brides and chattle...While future brides came to live with their future family's, they  begged the future husband to accept their chattel which included some token of ownership usually a neckless or collar..Many stories are out there about slaves begging an owner to accept their collar which is also part of chattle....I don't offer a collar I give one and the begging just gets that day put off to a another day down the road....bounty



Stephann -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:14:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

Since I'm a sub, however, I understand what it's like to be uncertain if begging a collar would be out of place, or would make me feel as though he didn't care enough about me to offer it. Fear of rejection, at least for me.



Oh, of course.  I totally see where you're coming from.  I'm certain charlotte would have felt the same way, had we not discussed the topic as in depth as we did.  I made it clear to her, in no uncertain terms, that I'd never offer her a collar; that it would be under her own power and will that she would become collared.  In fact, every night she is required to beg permission to join the bed with me.  It's a bit of a ritual; I sometimes just tell her "ok" and sometimes I make her kneel, ask her what her duties are, ask her if she was obedient today, was she beautiful today.  If there were issues, we might talk about it, but eventually if I let her in the bed, it's done knowing that she has earned the privilege of being mine that day.

But yeah, the point is she was made quite aware of my feelings for her, and I think she reasonably knew if she begged the collar, that I would give it to her.  I don't think rejection was high on her list of fears.  I think her biggest fear, was the risk she was taking in turning her fantasies into a reality.  I'll let her speak on that herself, when she can though.

Stephan



Stephann -> RE: Offering a Collar (11/29/2007 11:20:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MystressDream


So... in essence.... you have offered the collar when you trained them in how to beg for it.  <grin>   


Touche [;)]

I like to think of it along the lines of "I've given them the grenade, but it's up to them to pull the pin."  They have the free will to beg the collar, or not.  I do it purposefully, because I know the personality of a submissive can often be to simply say and do things to please the person they are with.  So, for me, 'offering' a collar would be like leading the witness; I'd feel like I was encouraging her to say and do things she's not ready for, and afraid to admit that.  My method isn't foolproof, obviously.

Regards,

Stephan



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