RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election?

RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (Full Version)

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EPGAH -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/29/2007 8:39:11 PM)
Well, remember, the best and brightest players of America's "spy game" quit, retired, or resigned... That said, if we look back--even only at the "recent" history, stronger nations (First World) tend to try to control weaker nations, whether through overt military force, through espionage and manipulating coups (For the record America's NOT the only one guilty of this! Entitites from Ancient Greece to China to Japan have done the same...Also the mess we call the Muddled--er--MIDDLE East!), or diplomacy and "sanctions" (Where someone inevitably breaks ranks, seeing quick profits in the offing![;)]) Therefore, would you want America to guide and control them, or China (or some other anti-American power?) Nature abhors a vacuum, and HUMAN nature abhors a POWER vacuum...so given that someone has to be on top, I'd prefer it be America!

Stephann -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/29/2007 8:47:32 PM)
I'll pitch a couple thoughts in; I won't be sucked into the Bush is evil/good debate. He's gone in a year anyway. Chavez isn't squelching television stations because they're backed by the US. He's using his power to squelch Venezualan media that does not support him. During the attempted coup, they didn't present news about how it went (or didn't.) They played cartoons (CNN has the backlog of stories.) He's made it clear, "you're for me, or you're against me." There's no middle ground in Venezuala. I believe (still) that democracy isn't about taking sides; it's about having the right to express how you feel. Chavez is attempting to take his country out of democracy, by leading the poor and hungry to revolt for him. Lenin did the same thing. I would love to see the arguements that communism as Stalin imposed was good for the USSR. Rest assured, the only possible successor to Chavez will be someone equally bloody. A quick look at the deaths, imprisonment, and misery in Cuba under Chavez's close friend Castro gives us a lovely walk down memory lane. Regards, Ste

thompsonx -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/29/2007 9:53:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH Well, remember, the best and brightest players of America's "spy game" quit, retired, or resigned... How exactly do quit and resign differ? How do you know who does and does not work for the CIA or any other intelligence agency of the U.S.? That said, if we look back--even only at the "recent" history, stronger nations (First World) You seem to be making up definitions here. What exactly is a first world nation? tend to try to control weaker nations, whether through overt military force, through espionage and manipulating coups (For the record America's NOT the only one guilty of this! Entitites from Ancient Greece to China to Japan have done the same...Also the mess we call the Muddled--er--MIDDLE East!), or diplomacy and "sanctions" (Where someone inevitably breaks ranks, seeing quick profits in the offing![;)]) What part of our constitution authorizes this? Therefore, would you want America to guide and control them, or China (or some other anti-American power?) Sovereign nations control and guide themselves. Remember we signed a treaty eschewing this sort of behavior. Nature abhors a vacuum, and HUMAN nature abhors a POWER vacuum...so given that someone has to be on top, I'd prefer it be America! Is it your position that America should rule the world?

thompsonx -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/29/2007 10:03:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann I'll pitch a couple thoughts in; I won't be sucked into the Bush is evil/good debate. He's gone in a year anyway. Chavez isn't squelching television stations because they're backed by the US. He's using his power to squelch Venezualan media that does not support him. During the attempted coup, they didn't present news about how it went (or didn't.) They played cartoons (CNN has the backlog of stories.) How do you know this? He's made it clear, "you're for me, or you're against me." Kinda like bush&co. There's no middle ground in Venezuala. I believe (still) that democracy isn't about taking sides; it's about having the right to express how you feel. Chavez is attempting to take his country out of democracy, by leading the poor and hungry to revolt for him. Lenin did the same thing. I would love to see the arguements that communism as Stalin imposed was good for the USSR. Perhaps you might compare the literacy rate and GDP of the USSR to Czarist Russia. Rest assured, the only possible successor to Chavez will be someone equally bloody. A quick look at the deaths, imprisonment, and misery in Cuba under Chavez's close friend Castro gives us a lovely walk down memory lane. I would be interested in you telling me just who all of these dead and imprisoned Cubans are. From what I have read the majority of the misery in Cuba has been caused by the U.S. Regards, Ste

subfever -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/29/2007 10:10:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 ... Hitler made many speeches accusing the United States of tampering with Germany's interests. He made it a big propaganda point. His intention was to get the people to believe that they needed him in order to protect them from the Americans. All dictatorships have used the same line. The Soviet leaders used that claim for decades to justify their dictatorships. Chavez is saying the same things... Gee... thank God our country doesn't create boogeymen that our citizens need to be protected from too... [sm=rolleyes.gif]

Stephann -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 1:50:38 PM)
quote: "I'll pitch a couple thoughts in; I won't be sucked into the Bush is evil/good debate. He's gone in a year anyway. Chavez isn't squelching television stations because they're backed by the US. He's using his power to squelch Venezualan media that does not support him. During the attempted coup, they didn't present news about how it went (or didn't.) They played cartoons (CNN has the backlog of stories.) How do you know this? I read the news. I happened to be living in Latin America at the time, so the region's stability had a more personal impact on my life. SFGate quote: Chávez decided not to allow RCTV's license to be renewed because, he claimed, the station had encouraged an attempted coup d'état against his government that took place in 2002. At that time, the station "ran movies and cartoons when the tide turned in Chávez's favor" and "refused to show huge crowds of the president's supporters rallying against the coup['s] leaders." Opinion-poll data indicate that "almost 70 percent of Venezuelans opposed the shut-down [of RCTV], but most cited the loss of their favorite soap operas rather than concerns about limits on freedom of expression." . quote: He's made it clear, "you're for me, or you're against me." Kinda like bush&co. Why would it be right for Chavez, and wrong for Bush? quote: There's no middle ground in Venezuala. I believe (still) that democracy isn't about taking sides; it's about having the right to express how you feel. Chavez is attempting to take his country out of democracy, by leading the poor and hungry to revolt for him. Lenin did the same thing. I would love to see the arguements that communism as Stalin imposed was good for the USSR. Perhaps you might compare the literacy rate and GDP of the USSR to Czarist Russia. Would you like those figures adjusted to account for the 5 million or so peasents executed under Stalins rule? I'm sure if we practiced the same form of human extermination of our 5 million poorest and least literate, we'd also se a drastic increase in both our literacy rate and GDP. quote: Rest assured, the only possible successor to Chavez will be someone equally bloody. A quick look at the deaths, imprisonment, and misery in Cuba under Chavez's close friend Castro gives us a lovely walk down memory lane. I would be interested in you telling me just who all of these dead and imprisoned Cubans are. From what I have read the majority of the misery in Cuba has been caused by the U.S. "There were thousands of executions, forty, fifty thousand political prisoners. The treatment of political prisoners, with what we today know about human rights and the international norms governing human rights ... it is legitimate to raise questions about possible crimes against humanity in Cuba." - Professor Marifeli Pérez Stable, a former Castro supporter One of the more frustrating things about these discussions, is that I'm certain that they tend to be more a war of "I'm right, here's my proof" rather than "Here's what I think and why." I'm not always right, and I'm willing to see issues from an opposing viewpoint, in order to understand the issue better. Are you? Stephan

farglebargle -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 2:18:05 PM)
Hey, BOTH Bush and Castro and Chavez suck. They could not have gotten where they are and still retained any shred of Honor and Integrity. But it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Castro sucks. And it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Chavez sucks. Our problem is that Bush sucks, and to be wasting TAX DOLLARS, and other assets on tampering with shit in either Venezuela or Cuba is Just Fucking Stupid.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 3:18:18 PM)
When another country declares you are an enemy, it is now your problem. How you deal with it, makes the biggest difference. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Hey, BOTH Bush and Castro and Chavez suck. They could not have gotten where they are and still retained any shred of Honor and Integrity. But it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Castro sucks. And it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Chavez sucks. Our problem is that Bush sucks, and to be wasting TAX DOLLARS, and other assets on tampering with shit in either Venezuela or Cuba is Just Fucking Stupid.

Stephann -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 4:15:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Hey, BOTH Bush and Castro and Chavez suck. They could not have gotten where they are and still retained any shred of Honor and Integrity. But it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Castro sucks. And it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Chavez sucks. Our problem is that Bush sucks, and to be wasting TAX DOLLARS, and other assets on tampering with shit in either Venezuela or Cuba is Just Fucking Stupid. Maybe. Consider a moment, if Hitler had been assassinated by the CIA in 1939, how many tax dollars (and taxpayer's) would have been saved? Stephan

cyberdude611 -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 4:24:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Hey, BOTH Bush and Castro and Chavez suck. They could not have gotten where they are and still retained any shred of Honor and Integrity. But it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Castro sucks. And it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Chavez sucks. Our problem is that Bush sucks, and to be wasting TAX DOLLARS, and other assets on tampering with shit in either Venezuela or Cuba is Just Fucking Stupid. Maybe. Consider a moment, if Hitler had been assassinated by the CIA in 1939, how many tax dollars (and taxpayer's) would have been saved? Stephan And how many millions of lives would have been saved? Tens of millions. Nearly 60 million people died in World War 2 and the vast majority were civilians in Eastern Europe and western Russia because of the Nazis.

farglebargle -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 4:27:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Hey, BOTH Bush and Castro and Chavez suck. They could not have gotten where they are and still retained any shred of Honor and Integrity. But it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Castro sucks. And it's NOT anyone in the US's problem that Chavez sucks. Our problem is that Bush sucks, and to be wasting TAX DOLLARS, and other assets on tampering with shit in either Venezuela or Cuba is Just Fucking Stupid. Maybe. Consider a moment, if Hitler had been assassinated by the CIA in 1939, how many tax dollars (and taxpayer's) would have been saved? Stephan Do the words "Due Process" and "Equal Protection" ring a bell? I just realized how stupid that sounds... Do you realize how many died because the US waited until Germany declared war against them? I guess Congress just didn't give a shit, even back then... Of course, playing these hypothetical games is pointless, because as we all know, after the 1939 CIA Assassination of Hitler, Prescott Bush and his Nazi Lovers were able to engineer the overthrow of the US Government, with the BILLION DEAD from the subsequent Bush White House, and the Gulags...

Stephann -> RE: US tampering with Venezuelan Election? (11/30/2007 4:38:35 PM)
ORIGINAL: farglebargle Do the words "Due Process" and "Equal Protection" ring a bell? Not in this case they don't. People who aren't on US soil don't enjoy the protections of our constitution. I agree, it's a slippery slope, one we're really hamstringing ourselves with, with these military tribunals offshore, but that's another issue entirely. The constitution provides "for the common defense." We have the right, as a nation, to protect ourselves. I just realized how stupid that sounds... Do you realize how many died because the US waited until Germany declared war against them? I guess Congress just didn't give a shit, even back then... Of course, playing these hypothetical games is pointless, because as we all know, after the 1939 CIA Assassination of Hitler, Prescott Bush and his Nazi Lovers were able to engineer the overthrow of the US Government, with the BILLION DEAD from the subsequent Bush White House, and the Gulags... The games aren't pointless; they illustrate how we can learn lessons from our past. It boils down to how much should the US interfere with other nations. Pretending other nations don't interefer with us is simply sticking our head in the sand. Stephan

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