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velvetears -> The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 11:03:47 AM)

i have a friend who i have known since childhood, we grew up together and were always close.  Our life's paths diverged and she moved, i moved etc but we always remained friends... you know the kind that no matter how long you haven't seen them things feel the same and there is no getting close again time needed.  Three years ago this friend moved back to NY from CA and she lived with me for about 3 months, till she got a job and her own place - i was overjoyed to have her stay with me and have her so close again to me. 

This past Thanksgiving i invited her over for dinner (actually Fri) and she sort of put off responding to me if she was able to come or not. It was literally a day or two before TG when we spoke on the phone and i asked her if she would be coming.  She said she was sorry she forgot to tell me but she had to work.  Later on in the week, during another phone conversation, she admitted to me that spending time with me, because i have children and she doesn't, is too painful for her because she regrets not ever having found someone and having a family.  She doesn't like holidays because they make her sad. 

i didn't say too much to her as how can i argue with how she feels?  i feel regret that i will be denied the company of someone i love very much because i am a "sad reminder", that i have to admit stung a bit.  i have a different approach to friendship- if you love and value someone you put up with the negative for them - ie - pick them up at 2 am if they break down, sit with them all night on a Fri after they just had a heart break and support them etc.... Isn't that what friendship is? 

i am curious to know if others out there have felt the same way regarding avoiding friends on the holidays because it was too painful? Do you think this is selfish behavior?   She has invited me over and i am sure we can do holiday stuff together, alone, but she won't come to my house or be around my kids.  Just during the holidays.  i'm not the best myself during Christmas as my mom passed away right before it, but i don't impose that on others. Christmas carols would bring tears to my eyes, but i never told anyone to turn them off - to me that would be being selfish.  i am not sure whether to talk this out with her or just let it go.  i suppose bottom line is i am expecting her to put up with something uncomfortable because of the friendship we share... maybe that's selfish of me.   i don't want to guilt her into it, but i want her to want it, btw she has no other family to spend it with as they are all in CA, so she will be alone. 



pinksugarsub -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 11:23:19 AM)

i spend the actual holidays alone; my UM visits around that time.  i avoided TG with my brother's in-laws because the crowd and length of time they stay make me uncomfortable, but on the 25th i will pop in on my brother at home and say hi and nibble on the buffet.  i do envy my sis-in-law, who has 2 of three UM's living in shouting distance, but then feel sorry for her, as one is away teaching in Alaska. 
 
My own UM informed me recently she's considering relocating to Calif or Florida, to get away from the snow.  i won't see her as much and holidays will be harder to cope with, but i want her to do whatever makes her happy.
 
Maybe it is selfish to curl up and watch movies rather than joining someone else's family for a holiday gathering, but the pain that comes from feeling left out of the great Norman Rockwell-ian family can run quite deep. 
 
pinksugarsub



KatyLied -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 11:46:00 AM)

It is her choice to be alone.  If she chooses not be around your kids, do something with her, one-on-one and then consider your obligation done.  Do I think she's selfish?  Yes, but I think she may also be using this as a way to draw attention to herself and her pity party.  You are only a "sad reminder" because she's not able to embrace the present.  



toservez -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 11:57:45 AM)

I did not know that there was an inherent obligation to see friends on holidays. I do feel very sorry for her that her issues are causing her to distance herself from friends. Not being able to do things for or with friends will take a toll on a friendship but calling someone selfish because they have an issue they are not handling well seems to be actually more selfish then the friend.



ownedgirlie -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 1:12:49 PM)

I could not be with my family on the Thanksgiving after I left my husband, for that very reason.  I had wanted so badly to have children - something I was denied in my marriage.  To say goodbye to that dream was horrendously painful for me, and I needed time to mourn my loss.  I could not be around all these happy families with their happy children when my heart was already aching too much.  I could just picture everyone paying attention to my sadness, and did not want that kind of attention.

So I flew across the country and went to the Macy's Day parade in NYC.  :)

Let your friend grieve the way she needs to.  She is being no more selfish in needing her space than you are in insisting she gets over her pain and hang out with you.  Neither of you is "putting up" with the other's desires.  You are simply letting each other be who you must be right now.  If she has been your friend since childhood, surely you know she loves you and you can allow her this?  I would advise you to not take her grief personally.  It is about her, and healing from grief of any kind is never easy. 



Kalista07 -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 1:32:46 PM)

Yikes.....Can i relate tho this or what??? In the past (when i was not having any contact with my biofamily) i was soo depressed and so sad that i would agree to spend the holidays with people just to get them to shut up, and in reality would generally spend the holiday alone... Not very responsible of me or honest of me, frankly....And then one Christmas my best friend in the world (one similar to the one You described) invited me to come spend the day with her and her family....Her husband, children...Ya know...Everything i wanted and knew i could never have....i didn't want to go....But, i also knew i wasn't willing to deal with this friend afterward if i didn't show up..............So i went............i cried the entire way there.........................................................  And then i got there, and her kids had helped her make me a blanket for Christmas and all of my worries and bullshit and self pity seemed to melt away....i don't know if this is of any value to You or not......... i guess what it finally came down to for me was my friend and i had a serious conversation about how my actions affected those around me....i had been too selfish and self centered to even recognize it from anyone else's point of view.........................................................................
i have no idea why i'm even posting this other than to suggest that You don't give up on Your friend...Try talking to her..............and to tell You that, yes, like You loyalty is one of my biggest strengths in a relationship.
Good luck,
Kali



SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 1:42:29 PM)

friendship is accepting all aspects of someone.....i dont go see folks around this time of year....its a time for retrospect, tears, planning, and just allowing me to feel all the things i need to feel in order to cleanse my self for another year.

im sure its all related to the fact my mom crashed hard the day after thanksgiving, and i had her in home hospice until she passed away on dec 29th...but i learned fighting this time of year is hopeless.  i make it a month to allow sadness into my day, and im good for another year.

am i nuts? ppfftthh who aint.

and i have friends who invite me over, knowing ill say no.....they tease me and call me a hermit, i say yeah yeah..and we laugh.  sometimes i surprise them and actually do show up somewhere.  but they have never tried to make me feel bad about not wanting to be around others during the holidays, other than the playful teasing i get from them.

they accept my insanities, and i accept theirs.....thats how it works in my world anyhow.



velvetears -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/29/2007 10:56:34 PM)

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply... each response has helped me see it from a different persepctive and that is a benefit. 

pinksugarsub, i agree that feeling left out can be very painful, what i had hoped to share with her to make her feel better never occured to me would do just the opposite. 

katylied, you are right she has many issues that prevent her from living in the present - issues i know she's working hard on resolving..... issues that she realizes have taken years from her life.  i will see her one on one over the holidays but i never thought of her as an obligation, i enjoy her company too much for that. 

toservez, you're right it's just as selfish of me to have expectations as it is for her to want to be a recluse.  i wouldn't allow this to take a toll on the friendship, we've come too far and shared too much together over the years to let this come between us. i'm just feeling the disappointment and sadness, trying to come to an acceptance things aren't going to be the way i would like them, but my intentions were well meaning. 

ownedgilrie, thank you for sharing your own experience, your response has helped me the most to see it from her persepctive and i never thought of it as her mourning a loss, being in grief.  i will of course give her the space and time she needs and let her be who she needs to be for now (nice way of putting it). By the way - did you enjoy the parade? i only went once, on a very bitter cold day, and froze my ass off and could hardly see a thing - never again lol. 

Kalista, my personality is more in line with you as i tend to push myself even more when it comes to things i feel are weaknesses. i can be very hard on myself that way.  i shouldn't have this expectation on anyone else though. Everyone handles stress, grief, issues differently.  i want to talk with my friend, eventually, to try to help her see that life is out there to be lived, enjoyed, shared, to open herself up to possibilities and not feel at 45 it's passed her by.  Your words had much value to me thank you.

SeeksOnlyOne, i understand where you are coming from.  my own mom passed away dec 22 and i was singing her Christmas carols right before she opened her eyes for the last time and took that last breath.  Christmas was very difficult for many years after that but i had to put on my happy face for my um's mostly. i remember going to the bathroom at the relatives homes just so i could let out my grief crying alone, where no one would know.  Never occured to me i had another option, not to go.  This part of my personality tells me i need to shake my friend out of it a little bit but the other half of me says don't assume everyone will want or be able to handle things like me.  You said it all in a nutshell "friendship is accepting all aspects of someone" Thank you.



ownedgirlie -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 1:45:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

ownedgilrie, thank you for sharing your own experience, your response has helped me the most to see it from her persepctive and i never thought of it as her mourning a loss, being in grief.  i will of course give her the space and time she needs and let her be who she needs to be for now (nice way of putting it). By the way - did you enjoy the parade? i only went once, on a very bitter cold day, and froze my ass off and could hardly see a thing - never again lol. 


Thank you for the follow up comments, velvetears.  You are a good friend to want what's best for your friend but to also recognize she's going through her own process at the moment.  Of course this doesn't mean you shouldn't talk to her about it, but it's good to see her side of things as well.  I'm glad my words helped.

As for the parade, I had a blast.  I arrived just a half an hour before it began and managed to weasle in right up front along the rail, just a block or two shy of Macy's.  I met a woman named Ruth there and we emailed and exchanged pics and such.  Everyone there was great and in good spirits - lots of fun energy.  It was cold, but tolerable.  It was my 40th birthday that day, and what a way to spend it!  Met my sister for dinner later and then we went to see Chicago on Broadway :)

A totally untraditional Thanksgiving for me for sure!!



batshalom -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 5:53:50 AM)

velvet,

From just experiencing something similar, but more from the side of your friend than from your side, it is easy to misunderstand something that isn't in your own head. This is your friend's "hard limit". She obviously wouldn't say / do something just to be hurtful of your feelings or callous toward your situation - it sounds like you love each other - so it must be something very hurtful and impossible for her to deal with at this time. Things may change one day ... or they may remain at status quo. Friendship looks past these things, at least hopefully.

It isn't selfish of her to be honest with you about her holiday feelings - it was the right thing to do rather than to spend time with you and your family and being silently miserable about it (and maybe even causing her to pull away from you without you ever knowing why).



juliaoceania -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 8:10:07 AM)

quote:

i am curious to know if others out there have felt the same way regarding avoiding friends on the holidays because it was too painful? Do you think this is selfish behavior?


I am sorry, but I think that you are the selfish one and you are projecting your selfishness off on your friend. Basically you are saying your feelings are more important than hers, and she should suck it up to please you. I do not find that to be a loving, friendly, or giving way of being. I only want people to be around me when they want to be, and I do not want my loved ones to spend time with me out of obligation.

The one thing I hate about holidays is how people think that they revolve around them, what they want, and how they want it... I dealt with my siblings fighting over where my mom should spend Thanksgiving, and it completely ruined her holiday... I just thought they were selfish assholes.... even though I love them dearly...

And by the way, I know I am a selfish asshole a lot of the time too, theonly difference for me is that I know I am a selfish asshole, and other people are selfish assholes, and I love them regardless and accept them the way they are... but it does not change the fact I do what I want when I want to and I spend my time around whom I feel like  when I feel like it without any guilt whatsoever. The only one that has veto power over me is my Daddy, and that is selfish on my part too, I love answering to him.

I suppose I have gotten to this place in my life where I see how people allow others to control how they feel, and make others responsible for their abundance.. I have done it in the past, but I am working hard on not doing it anymore. No one can make me feel bad unless I allow it. No one can hurt me by not spending time with me unless I allow it. I am responsible for my own feelings...

I swear this is not a flaming post, most people i know have these same little obligation games they play with each other... you are no different than most people I know, but I was just letting you know another view of it all... wouldn't you enjoy everyone more if you just accepted them where they are right now?



sambamanslilgirl -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 8:30:15 AM)

i'm much like your friend in the direct opposite - i don't spend the holidays with most of my family/relatives ...in fact i rarely make appearances at family functions these days.  the holidays do depress me yet i'm an expert at faking a smile and pretending to be happy when i'm actually not. so i try to avoid the happiness and company associated with family gatherings (which should make a very interesting wedding reception next year) opting instead for a day of peaceful quiet.

Daddy knows i dread the holidays every year because i have to make appearances with them or surround myself in the psuedo-religiousness of the meaning. He knows i feel very uncomfortable around them however i'm ordered to "enjoy" the day. *shivers* i would rather spend my holidays rockin' to music with my band friends.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 8:40:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i am curious to know if others out there have felt the same way regarding avoiding friends on the holidays because it was too painful? Do you think this is selfish behavior?   She has invited me over and i am sure we can do holiday stuff together, alone, but she won't come to my house or be around my kids.  Just during the holidays. 


If it is just during the holidays, then be grateful that your having a family and her finding it a sad reminder that she hasnt gotten all that she wanted hasnt caused a much greater rift in your friendship. After my divorce, I avoided all my friends that were in happy marriages even though I had many many invitations to spend time. I had offers from some to stay with them until I got moved just so I didnt have to be around my ex, and I couldnt stomach seeing someone else happy with what I had just lost. The holidays remind us what we do have and should be thankful for, but it also reminds us what we dont have.
You make the assumption that she is unhappy spending the holiday alone, or working. That might be what makesher the happiest.  When I work holidays, I enjoy the boost i pay and I feel good knowing that I have given someone else the chance to spend the holiday with their family, since I dot have a family here to spend it with. What you see as being selfish and not sucking it up for you might be a very unselfish act letting someone else have the day off to spend it with their family too.
The actual day of a holiday is only meaningful if you want it to be.  Rather than stressing about one day in the year that she may have said no... why not concentrate on all the other days of the year that she says yes?

DV



RCdc -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 8:43:33 AM)

I don't believe she is selfish because she has worked around her feelings and offered a compromise albeit one you wouldn't particularly want.  It might not be your ideal, but at least she is trying to see you.
 
Now you have to find a compromise on hers and do the same.
 
Friendship is not the way you described it to me - it is being honest, truthful and respecting your friends boundaries whilst being true to your own.  I would never put a friend in front of my children or my own health, mental or physical - that would be a complete lack of respect for myself and for the person/friend involved.
 
the.dark.



velvetears -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 1:41:47 PM)

batshalom, we are very close and i am sure her intentions aren't to be purposefully hurtful. i just wish she could have told me right away instead of sort of leading me on about TG and asking her up to the last minute and her saying no.  my quandry now is do i stop inviting her altogether or put the invitation out there each year anyway - i don't want to be insensitive to her needs but at the same time i want her to know my door is always open.

julia, hope your mom enjoyed her TG despite all the guilt trips.  i don't put any pressure, guilt trips, obligations, etc on this friend. i extended the invitation and just wanted to share time with her and offer her a "family" to spend it with.  i can't help my own reaction of disappointment over her frame of mind but that doesn't mean i will in any way make her feel bad or guilty about it.  i guess sometimes feelings can be selfish but i don't put those feelings into any kind of actions or hold any sort of resentment.  i just wanted to put the question out there and see how other people handle holidays.    i am a "suck it up" person or at least have been, my own family dynamics have changed over the years (deaths, divorces, moves, estrangements) and i have not been allowed to spend it with my own dad as his wife.  Holidays don't bring out the best in some people.  

sambamanslilgirl, i can relate to faking the smile and pretending to be happy, it's very emotionally draining.  It's good you make the effort i think as one day circumstances will change and the opportunity to see these people won't be there.  i had to over the years for my um's - i didn't want to deprive them, and i wouldn't. Now they are older (11 and 19) the expectation and anticipation isn't there as much and they are just as happy staying home, in fact they groan a bit if do make plans to see their aunts and uncles etc.  i do put it to them as an obligation but thats because i am trying to teach them values.  i may avoid it all and just work that day myself lol. 

DiurnalVampire, she said almost those exact words to me - the holidays remind me of what i don't have.  They too remind me of what i lost as before i cut off all contact with my own siblings i was always the host bringing everyone together and making the dinner, making sure the little ones had gifts, etc.  Even though it was the right decision to make it doesn't take the void and pain of it away.  This friend and me are like sisters - in fact she tells me all the time shes closer to me than her own sister and considers me family.  i guess there was some hope in there that she would fill that void and sadness around the holidays. 

Darcyandthedark, i agree friendship is all about being honest, truthful and respecting boundaries.  i will respect hers and of course get together with her at some point, alone.  my biggest hurdle is getting to her - she's in Queens and i can't drive my car there (no parking) so i have to take trains and subways.   Or maybe for my own wellbeing i will just become a hermit, work all the OT i can get and let the holidays pass. 

Many thanks to you all [:)]



batshalom -> RE: The expectations of friendship (11/30/2007 2:54:09 PM)

velvet,

I'd invite her every year and also tell her that you know how she feels but you don't want her to feel as though she's not welcome. This year, she probably wasn't comfortable disappointing you and felt bad for rejecting your invitation.



Alethea -> RE: The expectations of friendship (12/1/2007 7:37:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

i am curious to know if others out there have felt the same way regarding avoiding friends on the holidays because it was too painful? Do you think this is selfish behavior?


I am sorry, but I think that you are the selfish one and you are projecting your selfishness off on your friend. Basically you are saying your feelings are more important than hers, and she should suck it up to please you. I do not find that to be a loving, friendly, or giving way of being. I only want people to be around me when they want to be, and I do not want my loved ones to spend time with me out of obligation.

The one thing I hate about holidays is how people think that they revolve around them, what they want, and how they want it... I dealt with my siblings fighting over where my mom should spend Thanksgiving, and it completely ruined her holiday... I just thought they were selfish assholes.... even though I love them dearly...

And by the way, I know I am a selfish asshole a lot of the time too, theonly difference for me is that I know I am a selfish asshole, and other people are selfish assholes, and I love them regardless and accept them the way they are... but it does not change the fact I do what I want when I want to and I spend my time around whom I feel like  when I feel like it without any guilt whatsoever. The only one that has veto power over me is my Daddy, and that is selfish on my part too, I love answering to him.

I suppose I have gotten to this place in my life where I see how people allow others to control how they feel, and make others responsible for their abundance.. I have done it in the past, but I am working hard on not doing it anymore. No one can make me feel bad unless I allow it. No one can hurt me by not spending time with me unless I allow it. I am responsible for my own feelings...

I swear this is not a flaming post, most people i know have these same little obligation games they play with each other... you are no different than most people I know, but I was just letting you know another view of it all... wouldn't you enjoy everyone more if you just accepted them where they are right now?



This is one of the finest, fully realized, powerful responses [sm=applause.gif] on CM



CalifChick -> RE: The expectations of friendship (12/1/2007 11:13:10 AM)

I think you are very, very lucky to have this woman as your friend.

My best friend of many years started pulling away from me after I had UMs.  She finally told me that it was too painful to be around me, as her and her husband had been trying for years to have UMs of their own, including expensive, exhausting, painful infertility treatments, to no avail.

My first UM was conceived despite the careful, appropriate use of both birth control pills AND condoms.

My second UM was conceived with someone who was declared infertile by several specialists, and that conception happened about 7 months after we moved into together.  And we were not actively trying to conceive.  We lost that UM.

My third UM was conceived with the same person about 8 months after we lost UM#2, again, not actively trying to conceive.

It was just too painful for her to live her struggle, and see that not only did I not have that struggle, but that apparently the Fertility Fairy whacked me pretty hard with her wand.  I think it says alot for your friend that she can be so honest with you as to tell you that she can't be around just for these specific times, and the fact that she can be around you other times.

Cali



RCdc -> RE: The expectations of friendship (12/1/2007 12:09:55 PM)

I think the idea of inviting her every year rocks and keeps it open for her knowing you are there for her.
I really hope you can work this out together velvet.  Sending good karma your way hey.
 
the.dark.



velvetears -> RE: The expectations of friendship (12/1/2007 1:53:54 PM)

batshalom, i will invite her each year and leave it up to her to contact me to tell me yeah or nay, this way no pressure.  i agree she probably struggled with the notion of rejecting me, which is something i will have to correct because being upfront from the beginning is something i would rather have then a last minute answer. 

Alethea, i agree it was a well thought out and contructive posts.  i always appreciate reading her thoughts, they get me thinking and she brings her points across intelligently.

CalifChick, it would be a true loss if my friend could not be around me at all because of her deep seated feelings of loss.  i would feel very helpless too because there would be no way to help her with that.  i do hope one day she can gain a different persepctive, for her, not my benefit, so she can feel joy not sadness when in the company of others with children. 

the.dark, thanks for the good karma, i need all i can get lol.... i might be sad and disappointed but it will not affect her in any way - she'll never know - i wouldn't lay that on a friend, it's my issue not hers. 

Thanks to you all for helping me to see that :-)



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