RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (Full Version)

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DesFIP -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/3/2007 9:49:35 AM)

My son used to have night terrors and to this day can only sleep if there's music or a movie in the background. I think it may prevent him getting to that deep level of sleep. The outside stimulation seems to prevent him shutting off completely.




KatyLied -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/3/2007 10:20:32 AM)

I wonder if these sleep disorders have a genetic component.  My brother had night terrors as a child.  




velvetears -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/3/2007 11:40:12 AM)

katey i am glad your son was finally able to understand that there were others around who had similar experiences, that helps a lot. i am sure he did think they really existed as they appear very real, especially if you can hear them and feel them touch you *shivers* i didn't have a name initially for what i was going through and i thought i was on the verge of becoming a full blown psychotic.  Funny but i never considered spirits or other paranormal phenomena.  When my therapist gave me a name i was so relieved, not that that made them stop, but at least i knew i wasn't going nuts.  i am not sure about the genetic thing.  my sister has severe narcolepsy and afrer a sleep study i have a mild form - this may have something to do with it i don't know.  All i know is i am sometimes absolutely compelled, like the pilllow is a magnet and i have to lay down - i get that trance like feeling of one coming on at times.

DesFIP, i used to only be able to sleep with total darkness and absolute quiet. Now because of my meds i can sleep with lights and tv on - although i do rest better if they aren't.  He probably has them on more out of fear than anything else, i assume.  You know him best.




KatyLied -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/3/2007 1:08:00 PM)

Oh, thinking about spirits and the paranormal is not a stretch for him, he likes to read about those sort of things.
And I like to think that I helped him by allowing him to sleep in the living room with the tv on.  I didn't know what else to do for him.  It was months before he told me what the problem was.

My parents said that my brother's childhood was a trip.  He would wake up in the middle of the night, run around the house, point at objects (clock, tv, refrigerator, etc) and stand and scream at them.




LotusSong -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/3/2007 2:10:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

LotusSong, it's good you know what precipitates them.  i have no clue except to say stress, at least i think.  i cannot talk when in this state..... only when the fear reaches such high levels can i make sounds which people hear if they are around me and i tell everyone if they hear me make noises to pleaseeeeeeeeee wake me up.  Mine aren't just visual... i can feel things touch me, and hear things... which gives them a much more real quality. 


You can think lucidly during an episode.  But rest assured, it is a dream state.  You are in the process of waking and the body has this lousy stage of paralyzing itself at this time so that you do not act out your situation.  You feel as if your eyes are open, that you are moving.. I've felt myself slip off the bed to the floor as I try to wake myself..and when I wake, I'm still flat on my back.  This happens every night but we usually sleep through it.
 
Try not to panic next time.  Know you are going to wake up.  When it happens, confront the subject and explain to him what was going on and why you did what you did.  You were in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.  Something else for you to consider.. it's NOT a ghost..but perhaps your own anger about this situation presenting itself to you.  Forgive yourself.  Life unfolds as it should.  Everyone has free will.. this patient chose to do what he did.  God bless, sweety :) ((hugs)))  Be at peace.

edited to add:  I find this happens when I'm flat on my back.. when I sleep on my side, it doesn't.  I don't know if that has any bearing on it.. but it's worth a shot.  It could be that I'm more comfortable in this position and sleep more soundly and right through the stage.




velvetears -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/4/2007 7:36:15 AM)

katey saounds like your brother had them except he wasn't paralysed. There is another condition this sounds more like, it's called hypnopompic imagery. This happens after the body wakes up, so the person is no longer paralysed and they can still see dream images. This is what they believe happens to sleep walkers.  my oldest was a sleep walker and when we were visiting relatives in a new house she got up in the middle of the night and thought a bear was chasing her down the hallway, she tumbled down a flight of stairs.  She once was up sitting on the bed and i realized she was still asleep and when i approached her she sreamed pointed and just kept repeating "look, look"  so i believe she has hypnopompic imagery (opposite of mine).  i don't know which would be better to have. i think not being paralysed would be far more dangerous because if you think the images are real and your minds confused you could hurt someone on fear they were a monster or as in my case a demon (hell if i know why they are more then likely always demons). 

LotusSong, actually it's just the opposite, i am in the process of going to sleep not waking when this happens. i think what you are describing is hypnompic imagery not hypnogogic imagery - similar but different characteristics.  This does happen more if i sleep on my back, i usually sleep on my right side but sometimes if i am in pain i am restless and end up on my back.  

i have done work on lucid dreaming which i can do if i really work at it and sometimes when i am not even trying. It's an awesome feeling and during those times when i work at it i do a particular eye movement which starts the process and it feels as if my body is traveling, or moving very fast, then it goes into the most vivid dream you can imagine and i know it is a dream and can control what is happening. 




chellekitty -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/4/2007 10:00:09 AM)

velvetears...i have night terrors like this....i have had them since i was a small child...i have learned that if they seem too horrible to be true, they are, there is no doubt in my mind...and there is a self talk i go through in my dreams...it's just a dream, you have to wake up...anything i can do to wake up....and actually the fastest way i have learned, and it's hard as hell and i don't know how i did it, i'm so sorry i can't pass it on to others, is to break the paralysis, if i can move a body part, i can wake up...my heart goes out to you and the others...i have woken screaming, woken crying...just a few weeks ago i had one where i had to wake myself up and i cried for 20 minutes saying over and over and over, "it's not real"....but the key for me has been breaking the paralysis...move a toe, move a finger, then something bigger, then my whole body and i am awake...

i didn't know there was a name for it...thank you....i hope you can take something from me as well...

chelle




Papageno -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/4/2007 10:39:32 AM)

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LittleSkylark -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/4/2007 10:45:43 AM)

Whoops went and posted on the Masters account! [&:]

Lets try this again!
Ahem!

Ok here goes.. *Takes a deep breath*


I suffer in exactly the same way you do, I'll be unable to move my entire body, but I can still see, and always, always will see some kind of figure or person standing beside my bed or over me. Sleep paralysis is actually where the idea of the succubus/incubus came from hundreds of years ago today it's still often called "Old hag syndrome" as people would often associate the figure/presence they saw as a black old frightening hag.
Luckily for people like us modern science has an answer for our problems!
While the episodes are frightening, our body is actually doing us a favor, when someone suffers from SP, they are usually woken from their third REM stage during sleep, while in this deep sleep our body produces a chemical every night which paralyzes our body in a sense, the reason it produces this chemical is to prevent our bodies from acting out our dreams. (The opposite of sleep paralysis is sleep walking, where the sufferer's body does not produce enough of this chemical )
As a result of our mind being woken up out of deep sleep, the body has to take a few minuets to catch up, so while you can feel like you have been lying there from anything of 10 minuets to 3 hours! The episodes only tend to last 30 seconds! )
The good thing is that while you may always suffer from them, you can learn to control them. Velvet as you said luckily none have been as bad as your first! Each time you have one you have to convince your body of what is going on so that it learns what to expect when you have one, sadly though this never quite seems to prevent the frightening images from appearing, but I've kind of learnt to do my best to look past them and wait for the episode to end.

Since I moved into my full total power exchange in the US, I stopped having SP, and actually started suffering from night terrors! I'd never had one before, but they are similar to SP, only you can move and are fully awake. I'd wake up in the middle of the night, wide awake and see something hovering above my bed, which would cause me to jump out of bed and run off screaming/crying, no jokes. But every time I was 100% awake and the object would seem 100% real. These occurrences started happening so frequently that my Master would have to secure me, tied to the bed at night! So that if I did suffer from one I would not bolt off into the darkness and trip over stuff in the room, or worse fall down the stairs!
I went to several doctors who thought it was strange as children tend to be the main sufferers of night terrors, and yet I never had an sp attack or night terror until I was 17.
From what I can tell though, sp and night terrors are somewhat genetic, both my grandfather and my brother suffered from them most their lives, and there does seem to b a general trend so you should check up with your family and see if any of them have lucid dreams.
Recently I also discovered while taking benadryl that it tends to provoke sp!
Was glad to see though that i'm not alone in the world, thought I was going nuts for a while! ;p




velvetears -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/4/2007 11:11:30 AM)

chelle, my daughter, the oldest had night terrors, but my youngest doesn't. With my oldest everytime she slept in a new setting (like over a relatives) i could  be assured she'd wake up and sleepwalk - sometimes it was just being awake and doing normal stuff other times it was night terror.... you would actually think she was seeing some horrifying monster. She didn't remember them though. She would often just go back to sleep and when i questioned her the next day she had no recollection - in fact she thought i was pulling her leg.   i always worry when she sleeps downon the couch as i am afraid she will go out one night asleep.  i never move with mine - i am glued helpless to the bed. You are right though if i can move even a little it helps but it is so compelling, like i am drugged and very hard to release myself from it's grip. Sometimes if i try to roll my eyes i can get out of it. Not always though.  i am not sure if this happens to you chelle but if i do get out of it i HAVE to get up out of bed and move at least for an hour before trying to sleep again or i will go right back into it. i once got out of the SP and then turned a bit, relieved to be out of it then i felt myself sliping back and there was nothing i could do to stop it.  Even when i do get up i feel drugged and i have to move.  i am scared during those times to go back to sleep hence i have caused myself to become an insomniac.

LittleSkylark, you mentioned that SP sufferers are woken from the REM.... but this happens to me anyway, when i am just laying down attempting to sleep. Maybe my body goes into REM quickly?? i know from an EKg i once had i was not sleeping, i was deeply relaxed and the tech kept getting anoyed at me shaking my shoulder telling me NOT to go to sleep - i could not convince him i was not asleep. He told me he was viewing my brain activity and i was registering as asleep.  Very frustrating - any attempt at relaxing and he would say i was asleep.  When i do have these episodes they seem to last maybe 20 minutes to an hour. i would like to video myself having them but that's not practical as i cannot predict when they will occur.  You scare me when you say you went from SP to night terrors - i don't want those!  If i ever leave my house i will be killed as my driveway is right on a blind curve and they drive fast around here - i would be run over [&:] 

i think this whole abnormal sleep stuff is genetic as my daughter had sleep walking/night terrors and she talks in her sleep, my sister has narcolepsy and i  have been to a sleep lab and i have besides apnea a mild form of narcolepsy - well they suspect, i have to go back for another test, which i am not anxious to do as it is very uncomfortable to sleep all wired up like that and besides, i don't know how it will affect my license. i don't have cataplexy so i am not a danger driving buti don't want the hassle.

i am going to stay away from benedryl for sure. 




KatyLied -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/4/2007 11:53:30 AM)

My brother grew out of his night terrors, but from what parents have said they had many sleepless nights.  It was almost impossible to calm him and he would fight them if they tried to get him while he was in the middle of them.  The best they could do was stand back and make sure he didn't hurt himself when he'd go running through the house in a rampage.  I slept through it.




Real0ne -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/5/2007 1:09:27 AM)



is it possible that maybe you are experiencing a mild siezure, (the paralysis),  and then in the kaos of the subconscience 1/2 dream state you are reacting this way to interpret it?

Does this happen when you are wide awake?  In daylight?  When others are around?

The woman in that movie it happened not only to her but no one could help her either.




Real0ne -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/5/2007 1:23:03 AM)



Just read your last post.

you know what that sounds like is that you may be falling asleep while you are awake.  in other words unlike your sis with narc you have the ability to force yourself to stay awake and your brain goes into rest mode and puts your body into a rest mode.

It almost sounds like you are awake sleeping or conscious while sleeping so you can feel what your body does to sleep.

I can imagine that in that state of mind where the conscious mind is sleeping and subconscious is sorting things out while you sleep if you felt something your subconscious may recognize it as whatever it congered up the first time it happened to you then replayed ater that.

You may be conscious while sleeping and barely in the fringes of a thinking state of mind while primarily in a subconscious state of mind.

What do you think> plausible?




velvetears -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/5/2007 11:33:44 AM)

Katey that must have been exhausting for them.  Good thing he grew out of them.  my sister claims she has night terrrors - wakes up screaming.  i left her at a store once and she was suppossed to be gone 20 minutes, she comes back 2 hours later with packages. i was annoyed and asked her why she took 2 hours she looked at me like i was nuts and said she was only 20 minutes - she bought things that she didn't remember and had no recollection of the time that passed - she was either having an episode of narcolepsy or sleep walking?  i think all these things overlap to some extent - bottom line is the chemicals that produce sleep are out of whack.  Some have them as kids and some never outgrow them unfortunately.

RealOne - that is exactly what is happening - i am falling asleep while i am awake.  It's hard to explain but it happens when i am awake - it's like i go into a deep relaxation or trance like state where i loose the ability to move, i feel like i am relaxing but then there is this certain sensation which i have come to identify as "this thing coming on" - i am fully aware and conscious, i just cannot move. It happens when i am laying down, other people can be around and if they are they are incorporated into my dream images - i hear them speak to me, their faces change (usually monster or demon like) and when i come out of it i ask them if they were talking to me - it can be quite confusing, well at least in the beginning it was.   

i had an experience once during an operation, first one i ever had, it was for a c-section. They offered me a choice of spinal, epidural, or general anesthesia. After 36 hours of unrelenting pain with contractions 2 minutes apart the entire 36 hours and only 3 cent dilated i wanted the quickest way to get that baby OUT, so i opted for general. i can remember being nervous (normal for first time on an operating table) and the anesthesiologist was near my head, behind me. The drip was in and he told me to relax and that in a few seconds i would be out and it would all be over and to close my eyes and just relax. i did as he said and closed my eyes. A few moments later i heard him say, "OK she's under", then i heard the surgeon say "ok let's go", next thing i know i feel this burning hot poker being dragged across my lower pelvic region and they were all talking, the doctor was pushing my upper abdomen and pulling the incision open, all the while i am trying to scream but i cannot move. i finally did manage to slightly move my index finger and i grazed an arm which i felt jerk away - must have scared the shit out of whoever it was.  After i felt the head sort of pop out i must have finally gone out because the next thing i remember was waking up still in the operating room and the nurse was surprised, they hadn't even taken me to the next room - she wheeled me in there and i remember shaking all over as i was so cold - she gave me a blanket that was warmed up and noticed i was crying and emotionally upset - she brought the doctor in to talk to me and i explained to him what happened - he said i dreamt it but when i told him specific things that were talked about etc i remember his reaction, his eyes got big and he know i was telling the truth.  He then got the anesthesiologist to come up and talk to me. He explained to me that about 10% of the people experience that but not ususally pregnant woman, it's usually accident victims which they cannot give a lot of ansethesia to because if they do they will die. He apologized to me and said in his 25 yrs i was his first pregnant patient to report such an experience. Needless to say i am not to eager to ever go under the knife again.  i did have an operation years later for gall bladder surgery but i told the surgeon (maybe 2 dozen times) about my experience.  i was in no way relaxing and closing my eyes - in fact i fought to keep my eyes open, terrified i would be cut open again while still conscious.  i guess my brain chemistry is wired differently, i don't know, but somehow i think all these experiences have a common thing connecting them. 




KatyLied -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/5/2007 12:02:09 PM)

quote:

i think all these things overlap to some extent - bottom line is the chemicals that produce sleep are out of whack.  Some have them as kids and some never outgrow them unfortunately.


Definitely on the sleep stuff messed up.  My son was also being treated for insomnia.  I think it was stress-related.  He told me that when he's stressed he will have the sleep paralysis.  Not so much when he doesn't feel stressed out.  He is also sensitive to the environment in general and has a lot of allergies.  I think it all contributes to the confusion.




CuriousLord -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/5/2007 1:39:38 PM)

I've only had one dream like that.  It was drug induced, brought on by the drug that they used to knock me out to have my pre-canines pulled.   (Those sharp, spiky teeth in your mouth are the canines.  The ones next to them, close to the front of your mouth, are the pre-caninines.)

I had this horrible dream that I was a molecule, then continually smaller units of matter that would've driven Planck mad.  I was being, as I went down further and further, more pressured, crushed, helpless, like sinking into a blackhole.  The more pressure there was, the most emotionally violent the dream-borne depression became.

This dream, due to the length of the knock out, lasted for six hours.  The drug that was used to put me under was later withdrawn from use as, apparently, I wasn't the only one who had this happen.

The worst part was that, after the dream, I was still horribly disoriented, weak, badly depressed, and throwing up huge amounts of blood that I had swallowed during the operation while still fighting off the drug's paralyzing my limbs enough to walk.  All in all, it was a bad day.

---

That was all drug induced.  Guilt?  I still feel guilty about disproving my own beliefs.  For it, the orginial part of me, whenever I try to think, often says in a voice of grace which is now beyond me, "Do not move."




Sinergy -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/5/2007 1:43:55 PM)

In the classes that I teach, I have heard from dozens of students that the class brought up terrifying dreams which commonly revolved around being trapped, unable to move, helpless to defend oneself, wake up in full blown tears, etc.

We honor dreams.  We have Kleenex.  We may throw out some suggestions to help the person.  What students are usually told is that dreams are a way of the subconscious or intuitive mind to process extant reality.  I personally dont tell students to do anything, but I do listen attentively.  Our organization does not worry about them, because...

By the end of class, the students almost invariably report back that when they have these dreams, they always win their fights.  The terrors and things they are frightened of no longer have any impact on them.  They have the sleep reported by Edward Norton in the movie Fight Club.

I hope this helps.

Sinergy




velvetears -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/6/2007 8:21:43 AM)

katey, the anticipation of having these episodes is enough to produce stress to have one, that's why the insomnia ensues.  Someone mentioned earlier not to sleep on your back helps.  i hope he doesn't turn into a die hard insomniac, i think that can lead to so many other ailments and overall you just feel pretty crappy when you don't get enough sleep. It wreaks havoc on work schedules and if you are walking around in a tired daze it's hard to focus.  Good luck with him, i hope they go away for him as he gets older and he doesn't have to deal with them.

CL sounds like you had a dentist who didn't know how to administer anesthesia properly.  You were knocked out for 6 hours to have teeth extracted?  How can you swallow when you are under anesthesia?  Sounds dangerous. If that blood went down your bronchials you could have died.

Sinergy, i never saw fight club so not sure what kind of sleep he had. If he slept soundly i envy him.  What i have is different than dreams. i have dreams as well and some are pleasant while some aren't. i don't fret over dreams much. Sometimes one may pop up thats disturbing but nothing major. i like to write them down so i can study them for patterns etc but thats just my own curious mind at work.  As i remember 2 schools of thoughts about what dreams are: wish fullfillments or fears. i am not sure i agree that it's one or the other and that there's not other reasons we dream. 

What i have are more like hallucinations because i am basically awake but my brain thinks i am asleep. Being that my brain thinks i am asleep it paralyses me.  i am aware of my surroundings but am helpless to do anything to prevent my mind from producing whatever images it wants to. This is vastly different from just having a bad dream.  At least i don't go off the deep end and think i am being controlled by aliens etc......  if i ever do that it's time to sign my self into the psych ward.  Maybe people who do assume that when they have these experiences just want to feel special lol.... i am happy with ordinary.




kittinSol -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/6/2007 8:48:18 AM)

I had a very similar experience, aged 21, whilst at college too. My flatmates and I all went to our respective bedrooms late, at 3am. I was laying in bed contemplating putting the light out when a heavy weight pressed down on my chest. I couldn't move at all. The 'thing' then started breathing down my neck; hands ran up and down my body. It was definitely a sexual assault and I was terrified, as the 'thing' was invisible: but it felt terribly real! It seemed to last forever and I was completely unable to move. The bed then 'sank down' really fast, taking me down with it. The fall seemed to be endless. Finally I gathered my strengths and I sprang out of bed. Rushed out of my room totally panicked. My flatmates were convinced it was a ghost: we ended up sleeping in sleeping bags on the living room floor, the three of us huddled together.

I too thought it was a supernatural phenomenon until a few years later, when I saw a documentary on the subject of sleep paralysis. Everything concorded: it was reassuring to discover it had all been a psychological thing, but I was still terrified I might relive the experience. Thankfully it never happened.

It's a scary, scary thing.

quote:



'It's a very profound and frightening experience,' says Dr Chris French, a psychologist at Goldsmiths who specialises in the psychology of paranormal experiences and is collecting data on sleep paralysis. 'People are very reluctant to talk about it, either because they think it really is an alien or nocturnal visitation, or because they think they are going mad. The truth is, though, that it's a very, very unpleasant experience, but certainly not indicative of any serious long-term psychological problems.'

Sleep paralysis usually happens when someone is just entering or leaving sleep, and lasts from a few seconds to a couple of minutes. Most research has linked it with REM, or rapid eye movement, sleep which indicates dreaming. When the body and brain enter REM sleep, the muscles relax and the brain blocks signals that would normally allow the limbs to move, so preventing the body from acting out its dreams. One suggestion for the cause of sleep paralysis is that the firewall between sleeping and wakefulness temporarily drops, so that some sleep phenomena, of which paralysis is one, breaks into wakefulness.



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,596608,00.html




velvetears -> RE: Hypnagogic Imagery and Sleep Paralysis (12/6/2007 10:03:16 AM)

kittensol, thanks for sharing. They say up to 40% of people will have one episode in their lifetime. You never had any others?  Of the three choices - aliens, ghosts, or going mad i did think in the very beginning i was becoming psychotic.  i tried talking about it but the looks on peoples faces told me i better shut up.  It got very anoying to be told - oh you were only dreaming. i knew it was NOT a dream, i'm not daft and can differentiate between what dreams are and these experiences, which really do not resemble dreams at all.  




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