RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (Full Version)

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seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:31:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
What does a state do, however, in the light of the Shoah? It is thanks to free speech that Hitler rose to power. Free speech DOES make a society vulnerable to those whose agenda it is to destroy it..
Just a point of fact Madame Chairman: Hitler got a power base  as a consequence of political debate, and a remarkable achievement it was too. I believe the odd murder was involved along the way.

He got political power as a result of backstage manouvering (sp?) and then proceeded to do what.....limit free speech.
During his first few years, when Jewish persecution was occuring and dissent being supressed, had his policies been less successful then history would undoubtedly have been very different and many many millions would not have lost their lives in such tragic circumstances.



kittinSol -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 6:58:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: b12345

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Free speech at the cost of everything is a very american concept, I believe... In Europe (a civilised continent, all in all), people choose to not tolerate intolerance. It's a different philosophy.
.

To rephrase:
In Europe people choose not to tolerate those who choose not to tolerate...Nice. Seems like a lot of  intolerence over there.


I find it amusing that people who are so adamant about defending the right to free speech have let their government pass the Patriots' Act.

Rather ironic, don't you think?



kittinSol -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 7:11:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Hitler got a power base  as a consequence of political debate, and a remarkable achievement it was too.



We obviously have different definitions of 'remarkable' and 'achievement'. Hitler blatantly took advantage of the defeated German public opinion post World War I by making the Jewish people a scapegoat.

quote:



He got political power as a result of backstage manouvering (sp?) and then proceeded to do what.....limit free speech.



It's 'maneuvering'. But yes, that's exactly what little Adolf did: he used free speech as a means to seize power in order to abolish free speech. This was my exact argument a page ago.

quote:



During his first few years, when Jewish persecution was occuring and dissent being supressed, had his policies been less successful then history would undoubtedly have been very different and many many millions would not have lost their lives in such tragic circumstances.



Hitler led the biggest pogrom in history: thank you for stating the obvious.

I would patronise you too, seeks, but in the light of your infinite wisdom, it doesn't seem right for me to do so.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 8:12:04 AM)

Patronise away MsKS . A political base is not the same as political power.
The far right BNP in the UK has a political base but no political power. As yet !
Remarkable achievements need not necessarilly lead to good outcomes.

quote:

Hitler led the biggest pogrom in history: thank you for stating the obvious.
Unfortunately and this was my point his government also revitalised the German economy. or unleashed their high level skills if you will.

quote:

Hitler blatantly took advantage of the defeated German public opinion post World War I by making the Jewish people a scapegoat.
Any number of rabble rousers existed in Germany post WW1 in particular the communists. Hitler "succeeded". Others failed.

I find it amusing too that you believe that Europe is on the whole a civilised continent.
The history of Europe is written in oceans of blood, religious intolerance and hereditary privilige maintained by brute force.
Today that privilige is maintained by purloining the wealth of the average taxpayer by a rule of so called democratic law.

adding: 
quote:

 Hitler used free speech as a means to seize power
  Hitler got political power as  result of a backroom deal. He did not seize it.
That was my original point which you failed to latch on to. You did correct my dubious spelling tho' Thanks lol



philosophy -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 9:42:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
No one is really, honestly being hurt by someone who disbelieves the Holocaust happens. 


.....if it could be proven that denying the holocaust made a future holocaust more likely to happen would that worry you? You see, it can be argued that the whole Hitler thing is far less scary if the holocaust never happened, it makes the Nazi ideology a less repellant social experiment. Far right campaigners often try to deny the holocaust in order to do two things: to demonise those who say it did happen and to remove from the history of WW2 the enormous human rights violation that is the holocaust.

Basically this law is a judgement call. In Austria they have made the judgement that denying the holocaust is dangerous, that it could potentially lead to a new Hitler. Now you and i may diagree as to whether that fear is well founded, but to characterise it as a blatant and thoughtless attack on free speech is misleading.



Marc2b -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 10:10:01 AM)

With all the arguing about Hitler, I’d thought I’d drop this into the conversation:

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Study-Tyranny-Alan-Bullock/dp/B000H2N5W6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198173813&sr=8-2

Hands down the best biography of Hitler you will ever read. Until I read this book I did not truly understand the meaning of the phrase, "the banality of evil."



kittinSol -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 10:21:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

You see, it can be argued that the whole Hitler thing is far less scary if the holocaust never happened, it makes the Nazi ideology a less repellant social experiment. Far right campaigners often try to deny the holocaust in order to do two things: to demonise those who say it did happen and to remove from the history of WW2 the enormous human rights violation that is the holocaust.

Basically this law is a judgement call. In Austria they have made the judgement that denying the holocaust is dangerous, that it could potentially lead to a new Hitler. Now you and i may diagree as to whether that fear is well founded, but to characterise it as a blatant and thoughtless attack on free speech is misleading.



Very, very good points. As always, philosophy, you lead the rest of the pack when it comes to expressing succintly the truth in its barest, simplest form.

I love wisdom too: if only I had more of it :-) .



kittinSol -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 10:33:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Unfortunately and this was my point his government also revitalised the German economy. or unleashed their high level skills if you will.



Hitler's governement revitalised the German economy??? What how when again? They wasted their money pursuing their murderous rampage throughout Europe and beyond. In the end, they couldn't even give the Werhmacht shoes.

Are you talking about the dozens of billions of dollars Germany has had to pay in war reparations?



seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 12:31:16 PM)

From 1933 to about 1936 Germany was the fastest recovering nation from the Great Depression which was caused basically by the mad capitalistic banking system in the US..Paper resources and value of property used  as collateral to bid up the value of paper resources and property. Who controlled vast swathes of the US banking system I'm "not sure"

In Germany unemployment was virtually wiped out and the masses shared in the prosperity tho' their freedoms were gradually taken away and those that didnt "fit" were persecuted.
From about 1936 there was a switch to an economy with War objectives but this still helped maintain the standards of the masses tho' from then on dissent was punishable by "extreme measures"

Intellectuals worry if people are not free.
People worry if they cant afford food.
These are facts KittenSol however difficult you may find it to believe that Hitler did actually initially improve the lot of the German people.

The only response you may have is to accuse me of being a closet Nazi. Well if you do, I am not and you would be wrong..



mnottertail -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 12:36:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

From 1933 to about 1936 Germany was the fastest recovering nation from the Great Depression which was caused basically by the mad capitalistic banking system in the US..Paper resources and value of property used  as collateral to bid up the value of paper resources and property. Who controlled vast swathes of the US banking system I'm "not sure"

In Germany unemployment was virtually wiped out and the masses shared in the prosperity tho' their freedoms were gradually taken away and those that didnt "fit" were persecuted.
From about 1936 there was a switch to an economy with War objectives but this still helped maintain the standards of the masses tho' from then on dissent was punishable by "extreme measures"

Intellectuals worry if people are not free.
People worry if they cant afford food.
These are facts KittenSol however difficult you may find it to believe that Hitler did actually initially improve the lot of the German people.

The only response you may have is to accuse me of being a closet Nazi. Well if you do, I am not and you would be wrong..


UM, the intial improvement in employment was due to war buildup, that is like me kicking you in the nuts to fix your headache, it is unsustainable, check out the good ol USA now.

The money situation was resolved for very short tem prosperity by a complex ponzi scheme implemented by Hjalmar Schaact, also didnt last for more than a couple years.

If I can get you one pure glass of water and thereby poison the water supply for twenty or thirty years, I ain't doing a fuck of alot, am I?

So, making a big deal of intially isn't a valid discourse, since INITIALLY it does not hurt to begin a face plant from a 50 story building.

Ron



seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 2:21:54 PM)

I was asked to explain how Hitler's government revitalised the the German economy. This I did.
Meaningless drivel like the above is best kept to yourself.
adding: In case you have a rush of rationality to your tiny mind I actually explained what they did. Not how they did it.

A response from KittenSol would be of more interest..



LadyEllen -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 2:39:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I was asked to explain how Hitler's government revitalised the the German economy. This I did.
Meaningless drivel like the above is best kept to yourself.
A response from KittenSol would be of more interest..



Its an interesting debate as to whether Hitler revitalised the German economy. In pure economic performance measures, I'd say he probably did - or at least the economy was revitalised incidental to his coming to power.

But then, up until a few months ago, the verdict could well have been reached, based on pure economic performance measures, that the world banking sector was doing well.

From what I understand, the revival of Germany was based on such schemes as the Volkswagen project, where people were encouraged to invest in the idea that they would get a car - though few if any ever did, regardless of what they had invested, as their investments were actually instruments for rearmament. Put alongside the steady confiscation of assets from "undesirables" of all kinds and the breaking of unions through intimidation, it would hardly be any wonder if policies introduced under Hitler did not result in better economic performance measures.

But this is an argument for a rampant, uncontrolled form of market capitalism - one of the pillars by which Hitler gained power - rather than something which could be seriously applauded as a good methodology in general, regardless of what could be viewed as good results.

I can make a lot of money in my company, if I sell bogus share isues to my employees, have my competitors taken out and make my suppliers sell to me at whatever price I deem fit or else. On the face of it, I'd be a successful businesswoman - but in reality, I'd be nothing more than a gangster.

E



NorthernGent -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:26:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its an interesting debate as to whether Hitler revitalised the German economy.



The Nazi share of the vote declined in 1932 from 37ish% to 33ish%, which is why they resorted to desperate measures: they felt their time was slipping away from them, but, yes, they profited from a struggling economy.

Hitler's militaristic policies certainly contributed to economic growth, as did the end of the world-wide depression. They did, however, doctor the unemployment figures by a) excluding women b) excluding Jews c) introducing conscription.

I think a far more interesting discussion is to be had around the German culture of authority - was this the climate in which a Hitler could prosper? Could a Hitler have prospered in England under the same economic conditions? or was there something about German culture and history that made them more susceptible to a Hitler?



LadyEllen -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:35:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I think a far more interesting discussion is to be had around the German culture of authority - was this the climate in which a Hitler could prosper? Could a Hitler have prospered in England under the same economic conditions? or was there something about German culture and history that made them more susceptible to a Hitler?


Indeed, this is an interesting discussion too and I think youre probably right to some extent in the idea you seem to betray in your question, that the Germans were more susceptible to the notion of a strong leader.

The relevant factors I think, are that Germany really only formed in the 19th century out of a host of smaller entities, and in my view motivated by fear of the military strength of its neighbours and a preference for the military strength of Prussia as fellow Germans to defend themselves against those neighbours. That it took a strong man in Bismark to draw them together is also to be noted. And the competitive imperial backdrop of the Europe in which Germany was formed is also important.

The raison d'etre of Germany being then to provide a medium for military strength and expansionist imperial ambitions under the leadership of a strong man, one sees why and how it was led into WWI and indeed its pattern of history up to 1945.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:46:45 PM)

LadyE I agree that if gangster methods are used then lots of money can be made

The German govnt 1933-36 ( approx ) used methods of deficit financing, ie creating money resulting in massive current account debt, to invest in industry and the economic infrastructure. The results were spectacular and worked. The inflation that is expected to follow from this he controlled by coercion.
Contrast the inflation and poverty under the Weimar republic.

Had Hitler and those around him  not been messianic lunatics and limited themselves to unifying the Germanic nations of Europe under his control it is certain IMO that the 3rd Reich would be a dominant force even today. I would be willing to bet he could have "got away" with deporting Jews, which was the preferred method of the Final Solution as originally conceived.

LadyE your point that the German economy was recovering pre Hitler is just plain wrong. Would that it had been so. Hitler was considered the least worst alternative by the real power brokers of the time.

If your point that authoritarian methods must produce success were true then as an example Zimbabwe would be ...well would not be what it is today...a total disaster.



NorthernGent -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:48:12 PM)

True enough, the Germans were accustomed to authoritarianism; furthermore, they had a significant catholic population who were deeply conservative and valued the old hierarchy, rather than the Protestant doctrine of "all men are equal".

You're absolutely correct on motivation being generated by the actions of neighbours, but you're assessment that fear was the motivating catalyst is not one that I agree with; I think the driving force was a cocktail of pride and envy. Cultural nationalism was a very German concept, largely because of the disunity of the German states and the desire for strength and success.

On the other side of the coin, Germany had the largest Socialist movement in Europe post 1900, something like 34% of Germans voted for Socialist parties in the 1913 elections, with the implications being a more democratic system of government: so the matter isn't cut and dried by any stretch of the imagination.



Politesub53 -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:52:38 PM)

NG as far as the history goes, i think losing WW1 was a big factor in Hitlers rise to power. Link that to the depression and you have the perfect situation for people only to eager to see change. Ironically i dont think it matters much if its a left or right wing incoming government. The populace are all too eager to vote for anyone who offers them hope for the future.



LadyEllen -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 3:53:14 PM)

Hi Seeks

I dont think I said anything about the pre-Hitler economy recovering; I think that might have been someone else.

Zimbabwe is a different case I believe. Yes, similar methods are at work, but there is a different methodology in that the regime there is socialist with a racial supremacy streak rather than nationalist with a racial supremacy streak.

I agree though - if Hitler hadnt embarked on his wars then the 3rd Reich might still be around today and our world would be very different. But then, the war - fought as revenge for 1918 or as a test of racial strength or whatever, was the ultimate motivating force which drove Hitler.

E



WhiteDom77 -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 4:05:59 PM)

I find it amusing that a great many individuals are so quick to limit someone else's freedom to speak no matter how dimwitted their ideology is. No thinking person denies the existence of the Holocaust, those who do are clearly delusional. That being said, it is not a crime to disbelieve something- and making a legal matter simply underscores the deplorable state of society than it does about the fringe lunatics. I don't think that replacing old nazism with new nazism is acceptable. It was once a crime to state that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Popular opinion is fickle, capricious. Who's to judge which thoughts are acceptable and which are not? I guarantee, making "thought" a crime, no matter how ridiculous the thought may be, will someday cause a new, less selective holocaust. Big Brother is watching Winston...



seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria (12/20/2007 4:07:52 PM)

quote:

ladyE or at least the economy was revitalised incidental to his coming to power.
I took this to mean that you thought that pre 1933 the German economy was recovering.



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