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RE: Slave rights - 12/15/2007 6:28:01 AM   
IrishMist


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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

We are talking consentual slavery; you are talking nonconsentual.  I have posted twice now, that I have those rights granted to me by my state and country, yet I opt my Master's law to overrule them.  You are citing an example that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, and I am not sure why.  Illegal slavery and child abuse are not what this thread is about, as I understand it.

Nicely said.

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RE: Slave rights - 12/15/2007 6:38:08 PM   
LoveMyAussiePet


Posts: 9
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline 		The bottom line is this:

In the context of whatever YOUR relationship is - you have those rights which are determined to be adequate to you.  If you choose to only acknowledge and accept those rights which your "master" tells you then those are the rights you have, in context of that relationship.  In my opinion you basically have any and all rights your master allows you to during that period of time you are together...and then all rights accorded to human beings on the side.  You just choose to set your legal and ethical/moral rights aside during that timeframe

Outside of the relationship, it does not matter how "slavely" you think you are....or for a master how much of a dominant you think yourself to be... outside of the relationship a "slave" has EVERY right accorded to them by law.

It doesnt matter how much you wish to insinuate that a "slave" has no rights.  They do.  They have only chosen to give them up while pursuing a M/S relationship.

If a slave ever decided they no longer wished to be a slave they would still be fully protected and served by the laws of whatever land they lived in.

Anyone surmising otherwise lives in fantasy-land.

As a slave if you choose to give up ALL of your rights and abide solely on your masters word...thats fine and great if it works for you.  As a master if you can find a slave that is willing to abide and live under only those "rights" you decide to give, thats great.  Whatever works for your relationship.

As I stated however, it doesnt matter how 24/7, 365 days a year you live as a "complete slave."  The law will always kick in and over-ride whatever agreements you have made with your partner. 

I can see it now  "But your honor....she verbally consented to give up her rights to me!  She was my property!  I Owned her!  She had no rights but what i gave her!"...

Anyone here think thatd stand up well in a court room?


(in reply to IrishMist)
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RE: Slave rights - 12/15/2007 9:05:43 PM   
IrishMist


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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveMyAussiePet

The bottom line is this:

In the context of whatever YOUR relationship is - you have those rights which are determined to be adequate to you.  If you choose to only acknowledge and accept those rights which your "master" tells you then those are the rights you have, in context of that relationship.  In my opinion you basically have any and all rights your master allows you to during that period of time you are together...and then all rights accorded to human beings on the side.  You just choose to set your legal and ethical/moral rights aside during that timeframe

Outside of the relationship, it does not matter how "slavely" you think you are....or for a master how much of a dominant you think yourself to be... outside of the relationship a "slave" has EVERY right accorded to them by law.

It doesnt matter how much you wish to insinuate that a "slave" has no rights.  They do.  They have only chosen to give them up while pursuing a M/S relationship.

If a slave ever decided they no longer wished to be a slave they would still be fully protected and served by the laws of whatever land they lived in.

Anyone surmising otherwise lives in fantasy-land.

As a slave if you choose to give up ALL of your rights and abide solely on your masters word...thats fine and great if it works for you.  As a master if you can find a slave that is willing to abide and live under only those "rights" you decide to give, thats great.  Whatever works for your relationship.

As I stated however, it doesnt matter how 24/7, 365 days a year you live as a "complete slave."  The law will always kick in and over-ride whatever agreements you have made with your partner. 

I can see it now  "But your honor....she verbally consented to give up her rights to me!  She was my property!  I Owned her!  She had no rights but what i gave her!"...

Anyone here think thatd stand up well in a court room?



Are you asking? Or making a statement of fact?

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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 4:31:28 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yes, and do you really think you're saying something that no one comprehends?  Everyone knows that we have legal rights that aren't abridged by our personal relationships.  Everyone knows that slavery is illegal and slave contracts legally invalid.  If you really think people are unclear about that, you aren't hearing what the OP is asking.


Yet on page four I think it is this statement is still categorically made...

I saw your comment that this thread was not about defining slavery but about slaves having rights. Keeping int hat vein, I will again state what I originally said.

No. Slaves have no rights.

It is that comment that I have continued to address.  That post talks about the reality of living in a relationship where one has no rights, regardless of the stance of the law.  That the premise of consent removes ones rights, and that slaves have no rights.

There is a place here called Coober Pedy, where the sun is so hot many homes are built underground.  I could, if I chose, live in one of those houses and not experience the sun rising and setting.  For me it would cease to exist, I could experience my reality of days, weeks, seasons thusly, never again seeing the sun or moon.  That, however, doesn't mean that the sun isn't still rising and setting each day.  For that to cease to be reality I would have to book on the first Virgin flight into space and step "outside the box" and view the planet, sun and moon from a different perspective, where there would be no rising and setting.  Thus, I would have changed reality.

I have read in this thread that because I am not in such a relationship that I can't possibly understand it, and hence that is the reason why I challenge it.  That is not the case at all.  I love my rights.  I love that I have them.  I love that organizations such as Amnesty recognize and fight world wide for human rights.  I cannot ignore the work they have done, the lives lost, in the fight for freedom, for my rights.  I have an Owner/Master.  I love that he breaches my rights, I love that I have given him consent to do so.  I get where you are coming from, I really do.  We played around with the M/s terminology and he would say to me "you don't have the right to...."  It sounded hollow to the both of us, and neither of us could believe it fully.  Now he says "It's not your place to..." and in that point he is absolutely correct.

quote:

Also, it's "consensual," not "consentual."  I mean, really, if we're going to get technical about the law and its effect on our lives, let's make sure we use real words.


My bad, in the absence of an in-forum spell checker I use dictionary.com to check if I have the correct spelling.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This con·sen·tu·al      /kənˈsɛntʃuəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-sen-choo-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective Law. involving or carried out by mutual consent: a consentual divorce.

I also write honour, colour, grey, aluminium, centre and litre.

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/16/2007 4:37:34 AM >

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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 4:35:31 AM   
LoveMyAussiePet


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Joined: 12/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


Are you asking? Or making a statement of fact?


Challenging would be a better word.

It just amazes me that a number of people here seem to have this concept that because THEY have chosen this lifestyle out of free will that somehow the rules that apply to everyone else somehow dont follow.  In the context of any relationship, or within the BDSM community - here on these forums, online, meet and greets, clubs, etc - that may be true.  It doesnt mean the rest of the world and the bounds set by society somehow became non-existent because youve chosen something "outside the box".  Time doesnt stand still because youve decided it will not affect you.  You dont make your own reality.


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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 5:59:44 AM   
IrishMist


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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveMyAussiePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


Are you asking? Or making a statement of fact?


Challenging would be a better word.

It just amazes me that a number of people here seem to have this concept that because THEY have chosen this lifestyle out of free will that somehow the rules that apply to everyone else somehow dont follow.  In the context of any relationship, or within the BDSM community - here on these forums, online, meet and greets, clubs, etc - that may be true.  It doesnt mean the rest of the world and the bounds set by society somehow became non-existent because youve chosen something "outside the box".  Time doesnt stand still because youve decided it will not affect you.  You dont make your own reality.




I beg to differ. I DO MAKE MY OWN REALITY. My perception of my own reality; my own way of living…is not the same as anyone else’s.
 
I can, however, appreciate that other’s do not see things the same way that I do; that other’s do not live the way that I choose to live. And when I see those people, in real life…yes, I know quite a few in real life…when I see those people, I too, am amazed…not because I challenge the way they choose to live, but because they have chosen a way of life that suits them and are uncaring of what others may think about it.

Please explain what you mean by ‘bounds’. Are you referring to laws? Or are you referring to societies expectations of how a person should live? I would not wish to make any unfounded assumptions.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 12/16/2007 6:03:43 AM >

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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 6:02:28 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

Yet on page four I think it is this statement is still categorically made...

I saw your comment that this thread was not about defining slavery but about slaves having rights. Keeping int hat vein, I will again state what I originally said.

No. Slaves have no rights.

Yes, I made that statement. And yes, I still stand by it.



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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 7:13:07 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You're quoting that as though I said it, and I didn't (I don't write in italics and I don't use red font), but anyway it's correct.  If you have rights, you're not a slave.  That's what I've said from the beginning.

At this point I don't even understand what you're trying to say.  You're not making much of an effort to understand what anyone else is saying, either.

Edited to add: OK, I see that IrishMist said she wrote it.  Whatever--I may as well have said it too.  This conversation has pretty much run its course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

No. Slaves have no rights.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 12/16/2007 7:14:50 AM >

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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 7:22:17 AM   
TMaster2


Posts: 194
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline 		There are always rights, starting with the right to leave if things go farther than they should for him/her.  But other rights too, all the way along.  I agree with one post I saw that the illusion of no rights is many times a big part of it, but the rights are there, nonetheless.

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RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 8:50:57 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, nevermind, not worth it.  I was going to quote from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as to our universal rights to privacy, to be able to have the freedom to do whatever we consent to behind closed doors, but hey, you want the world to see what you do in your bedroom, more power to your kink.


    < Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/16/2007 8:56:15 AM >

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 9:55:19 AM   
    Rover


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LittleWench

    Actually, nevermind, not worth it.  I was going to quote from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as to our universal rights to privacy, to be able to have the freedom to do whatever we consent to behind closed doors, but hey, you want the world to see what you do in your bedroom, more power to your kink.


    I agree, government has no place intruding upon our privacy.  Can you imagine that there are actually governments telling people that they cannot smoke in the privacy of their own homes, or cars, just because they have children about? 
     
    John

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 10:05:44 AM   
    DesFIP


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    From: Apple County NY
    Status: offline     		Rover, you have every right to die of lung cancer. You don't have any right to inflict that death on someone who isn't capable of consenting to it. And of course, you don't have the right to force anyone else to pay for your treatment and care. So if you choose to die such a horrible death, then please carry sufficient insurance to cover it. It isn't my responsibility to pay for you.

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 10:25:08 AM   
    Rover


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DesFIP

    Rover, you have every right to die of lung cancer. You don't have any right to inflict that death on someone who isn't capable of consenting to it. And of course, you don't have the right to force anyone else to pay for your treatment and care. So if you choose to die such a horrible death, then please carry sufficient insurance to cover it. It isn't my responsibility to pay for you.


    To begin, I am not (any longer) a smoker.  But my point is that lots of those folks who think it's inappropriate for government to be peeking in their windows only mean it until they find an issue they agree with.  In other words, they're hypocrites.
     
    Second, when you march down that road of societal responsibility, be careful of where it leads you.  Soon you'll have folks deciding for you where and what you can eat, how much you need to exercise, etc. in order to satisfy the state.
     
    And finally, millions of children have had parents who smoked in their presence.  All of their parents were not "inflicting death" upon them, nor were they abusers.  Not unless you want to include those that buy their children twinkies, McDonald's, etc.  Before you know it, everyone is guilty.
     
    John

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 11:38:27 AM   
    LoveMyAussiePet


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: IrishMist

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LoveMyAussiePet

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: IrishMist


    Are you asking? Or making a statement of fact?


    Challenging would be a better word.

    It just amazes me that a number of people here seem to have this concept that because THEY have chosen this lifestyle out of free will that somehow the rules that apply to everyone else somehow dont follow.  In the context of any relationship, or within the BDSM community - here on these forums, online, meet and greets, clubs, etc - that may be true.  It doesnt mean the rest of the world and the bounds set by society somehow became non-existent because youve chosen something "outside the box".  Time doesnt stand still because youve decided it will not affect you.  You dont make your own reality.




    I beg to differ. I DO MAKE MY OWN REALITY. My perception of my own reality; my own way of living…is not the same as anyone else’s.
     
    I can, however, appreciate that other’s do not see things the same way that I do; that other’s do not live the way that I choose to live. And when I see those people, in real life…yes, I know quite a few in real life…when I see those people, I too, am amazed…not because I challenge the way they choose to live, but because they have chosen a way of life that suits them and are uncaring of what others may think about it.

    Please explain what you mean by ‘bounds’. Are you referring to laws? Or are you referring to societies expectations of how a person should live? I would not wish to make any unfounded assumptions.



    Pet and I had a long discussion about Reality one day about a month ago.

    She had some pretty good points and it made me think pretty hard on the subject.  Whilst I still hold to some of my previous beliefs on the matter, I cant logically argue that she is wrong and indeed has valid points.  Added to my own beliefs I think I've come to a pretty solid conclusion that suits  and takes into account her well-wrought arguments.

    We can all shape OUR realities as we see it.  Thats true to an extent.  But how we choose to perceive reality doesnt change what reality actually is.

    The reality is we need air to breathe.  Without it we die.
    Reality is that the sun will come up and go down in a standard cycle.
    Reality is that the BDSM community is a sub-culture of a much larger culture.
    Reality is that society at large is governed by a standard set of norms and normative behavior.
    Reality is that there are laws to goverm human beings in general, and specific laws in every political region of the world..

    We have the right to act how we wish in our own privacy (there are limitations).  We have every right to live more-or-less how we choose to.  So in that sense yes, we have the freedom to make of reality what we will.

    But just because I choose to perceive reality one way, you another, and everyone else in their own way...doesnt change the fact that there is a general concept of what is real and what reality itself is.  There are basic fundamental principles (not just laws...but physics, science, etc) that you can not change.  It doesnt matter if you wish to create your own fantasy world and live in it. That may be whats real for you.  However, thats just how you have chosen to PERCEIVE reality.  You have not made your own reality or stopped reality from existing.

    You dont create your own reality...you just choose to take from reality, or perceive it, the way you want to.  It isnt changed.

    Mental hospitals are full of people who have decided to create their own realities and lived out their imaginations in the "real" world. 

    If a neighbor living next to someone in a BDSM relationship called the police because they believed there was domestic abuse going on...the police (perhaps social services, etc) would likely investigate.  Now if it was all consensual and neither party wished to press charges or admit there was anything out of the ordinary, I imagine the police would back off on it.  However there are cases where prosecutors, social services, etc have stepped in and taken measures REGARDLESS of the will of the individuals involved.  There are laws and loopholes where it doesnt matter what YOU perceive your reality to be...the reality is that it is not normative behavior and if it is felt to be abusive and against common law and decency then you can scream to the moon it is all consensual.  It doesnt mean that action can not be taken.

    Is it intrusion of privacy?  Is it "right" or "wrong" for anyone else to tell you that your behavior is inappropriate?  Is it wrong for someone to challenge your mental capacity or mental state because you choose to be beaten or flogged or bound and gagged?

    I personally feel everyone has a right to choose how they want to live.  I mean heck, I have chosen to start leading an alternative lifestyle with my partner.  I wish to choose how I want to lead my private life (and a bit public too :-p ).

    Im simply stating that I see so many comments on these forums about slaves not having rights, etc that it confounds me.  I believe there was a comment someone made that if their master wanted to snuff the life out of them they could.  Wtf?

    If you WANT them to, I suppose thats your choice and all well and good for ya.  But that doesnt mean that the real-world police wouldnt charge the Dom with negligent homicide.

    You can choose to perceive reality however you want it to be but that doesnt mean reality itself follows suit to what you want it to be. Thats what im driving at.  Slaves HAVE rights even if they have decided to give them up (and for all intent and purpose you cant really give them up, you've just decided not to acknowledge them).  The minute they choose to take back any right they justifiably have as a human being, they have it...they've always had it, they just chose not to claim it for the duration of their self-imposed servitude.  Its a simple fact you can not change.  Ever.

    Remember, just because you choose not to acknowledge something does not mean it ceases to exist. 

    (in reply to IrishMist)
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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 3:45:13 PM   
    IrishMist


    Posts: 7480
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    quote:

    Reality is that the BDSM community is a sub-culture of a much larger culture.

    Bullshit
    That may be YOUR reality; but it certainly is not mine. I don't belong to any so called community.
    quote:

      Reality is that society at large is governed by a standard set of norms and normative behavior.


    Bull shit. Mine isn't. I could give a flying fuck what 'society' thinks about me and my behavior.
    quote:

      Reality is that there are laws to goverm human beings in general, and specific laws in every political region of the world

    I will not argue such things. In fact, I would go so far as to make a bet that I know the laws of the United States; and the laws of each individual state better than you do. Unless of course, we both happen to be in the same line of work.
    quote:

       It doesnt matter if you wish to create your own fantasy world and live in it

    Honey; I don't live in a fantasy world. Sometimes I almost wish I did; it would sure as hell make things a lot easier. However, for you to assume that because I stand by what I say that I must be living a fantasy is presumptious and rude. But that's ok. I meet your kind on a daily basis in real life; they mean nothing to me then and now; you mean nothing to me here and now. Your views are your views; keep them with you at night if they keep you warm. That, after all, is your entitlement.

    Either way; it matters very little because my stand has not changed.

    Slaves have no rights.



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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 3:53:17 PM   
    IrishMist


    Posts: 7480
    Joined: 11/17/2005
    Status: offline     		I was going to delete the post above me, and changed my mind.

    Instead I am just going to say here that I am pretty much done with this thread; it was straight forward question that needed nothing more than a simple answer; instead it was twisted into some political, legal...I know more than you do thread.

    Fuck it; I am done.

    Have fun getting in the last word ya'll

    mist

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 5:21:44 PM   
    RumpusParable


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lovethewhip

    Does a slave have rights? 


    Since this has ended up turning into a discussion, after all, I'll share my views too.

    For and with me, a slave maintains 2 rights once they've agree to be owned by me. 

    The first is an acknowledgement of the fact there is no true slavery legal or consentable to and that they are only consentually serving me and that calling them my "slave" is just shorthand for that:  1)  They have the right to leave the relationship if they so choose.

    The second is a right based on my preference and ideal of a healthy relationship, no matter how extreme it otherwise gets:  2)  They have the right to express their thoughts, worries or concerns about our interactions/relationship so long as they do so respectfully for me to listen to and consider.

    Everything else is up to my desire, whim, preference, what have you.  That I'm careful and caring towards (even when being delightfully mean) my property is part of those preferences of mine only.

    As my profile generally says, "If I want it, I've got it... but I'm not unreasonable or unrealistic".  I aim for balance.

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 5:25:51 PM   
    erebus


    Posts: 169
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    Status: offline     		Isn't this a tedious thread?

    This is the United States of America (or I assume somewhere else on Earth).  Slavery is not legal in any country.  Ergo, 'slaves' have the same rights as anyone else. 

    Let's say your 'slave' calls the police.  Do you think they are going to ignore her 9-1-1 call just because you say she is a 'slave' and has no rights?

    More likely you will be at the very least detained for questioning.  I'll bet even in San Francisco.

    Does that answer this question once and for all?

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 5:32:35 PM   
    erebus


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    [/quote]

    Since this has ended up turning into a discussion, after all, I'll share my views too.

    For and with me, a slave maintains 2 rights once they've agree to be owned by me. 

    The first is an acknowledgement of the fact there is no true slavery legal or consentable to and that they are only consentually serving me and that calling them my "slave" is just shorthand for that:  1)  They have the right to leave the relationship if they so choose.

    The second is a right based on my preference and ideal of a healthy relationship, no matter how extreme it otherwise gets:  2)  They have the right to express their thoughts, worries or concerns about our interactions/relationship so long as they do so respectfully for me to listen to and consider.

    Everything else is up to my desire, whim, preference, what have you.  That I'm careful and caring towards (even when being delightfully mean) my property is part of those preferences of mine only.

    As my profile generally says, "If I want it, I've got it... but I'm not unreasonable or unrealistic".  I aim for balance.
    [/quote]


    Unclear on the concept.  Your play 'slave' has as many rights as you do.  If you don't think so, try to enforce your 'rights' in the courtroom.

    You say they have the right to 'express their worries', but only as long as they do so in a respectful manner. 

    What if they don't?  Do you claim that you are above the laws of the land?

    Please; this is all play-acting and ends as soon as one decides not to play anymore.  If it doesn't end at that point, you end up in prison. 

    If anyone has questions in their heads after all of this, repeat after me, "This is the United States of America, and this is 2007.  Slavery ended in this country over 100 years ago.  We enjoy playing games, but they are just games.  To think otherwise is delusional thinking."  It really is.

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    RE: Slave rights - 12/16/2007 5:41:00 PM   
    RumpusParable


    Posts: 1923
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    Status: offline     		See "Right Number 1", you clearly didn't actually read what you quoted.  It quite clearly covers that actuality of human legal rights and the verbal shorthand of "slave".

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