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RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 5:53:07 AM   
Petronius


Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		As a story is is essentially a non-starter, given the appearence of interest and value only the hype the "Gold Bugs" give it.

Taxes are routinely set on the dollar value of compensation, measured by the way the IRS, not the Gold Bugs, set value. In other words, if you do a job and get a painting worth $10,000 on the market that goes down as $10,000 in income. I seem to recall another cold-coin case several years ago where the rule was that the person could declare as simple income the face value of the coin but had to declare as extra income the value of the coin when sold. In other words getting paid a $50 gold coin worth $1000 is $50 in income from the coin and another $950 in income when the coin is cased in for money.

As I said, the story's a non-starter.

(in reply to Sunao)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 10:00:15 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
its a nonstarter as far as the government is concerned.  If the governemtn is only willing to pay face value for a 50 buck gold piece then thats all that need be recorded as income is 50 bucks.  The government sets the standards of value for money. Other than that all transactions for profit are supposed to be recorded and reported.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Petronius)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 10:09:15 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The government doesn't HAVE TO denominate the gold in dollars. And of course this brings us to the question, What about chip-gold, and other nations bullion coins, which are denominated in other currencies?

The *solution* is to simply allow transactions in gg ( gold grams ) and tax them like any other transactions.

But they guys running the currency scam are making way too much off of it, and the economy could never handle the demise of an inflatable currency.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 10:26:27 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		It seems to me that using little pieces of metal that are not legal tender is barter, just like if was paying his employers in apples or chickens .  And the rules of how you pay taxes on barter are long established.  You use the market value of the items.  Doing that would allow you to fudge a few % on the transaction.

I imagine that after the charges are re filed there will be a conviction.  The idea that the guy is pretending he was paying 50 bucks a week to his employees is ridiculous.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 12:29:58 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I will argue that.  The law says whatever it says after the appeals process kicks in, just as the US constitution says. 

Sugar, that is the basis of all laws, force.

There are indeed many legal ways of lowering/avoiding some taxes. 

So sub fever is admitting there is not a single court case that backs up his claim.

I would love to see a simplification and reform of the tax system, that is far different than arguing taxes are illegal.


Whose and which claim?

quote:

My apologies subfever, I meant termyn8tr, I do get you folks who believe the Protocolls of the Elders of Zion  are true (white supremist is a nice shorthand IMHO) confused  sometimes.

He claimed there is no law requiring payment of taxes, and that court cases back that claim up.  So to be clear, since you disagree with termyn8tr and do not want to be lumped in with him on his issue, you do feel that taxation is legal, and that not a single court case has ever backed up his claim.  And we are in agreement now.  Very good.  Glad you have seen the light.


So let me get this straight... because I asked you for a simple clarification, this automatically puts me in agreement with you?

quote:

My bad subfever.  This sentnace should have had a "?" not a "."

So to be clear, since you disagree with termyn8tr and do not want to be lumped in with him on his issue, you do feel that taxation is legal, and that not a single court case has ever backed up his claim?
 
I am sure you have a creative reason for not answering.


Where in this thread or elsewhere have I disagreed with Termyn8or?

Yanno, it's bad enough that you see the world through the eyes of a status-quo, state worshipping, neo-con authoritarian, but hey... that's your business. And for the time being, we live a country still free enough to publicly express our beliefs... for the most part, anyway.

So by all means, post away. But please do so without putting words in my mouth and into the mouths of others. Your habit of doing this seems to be increasing. And it's particularly insulting when you combine this with a game of playing two ends against the middle.

If you have a question about any of my opinions, feel free to ask me directly. If I have a question or opposing opinion regarding someone else's opinion, I'll deal with them myself.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 2:15:36 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Isn't one of the problems this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1792

...and the fact that Federal Reserve Notes are actually only legal tender under the borrowing clause?

I am perfectly willing to let someone set me right on this issue, but I see two standards that are at loggerheads in every conceivable way.

Another area of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note

It's pretty obvious that some kind of sleight of hand has occurred with our monetary system. Something of real value as property has been replaced with something of only perceived or theoretical value.


(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 3:54:45 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Isn't one of the problems this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1792

...and the fact that Federal Reserve Notes are actually only legal tender under the borrowing clause?

I am perfectly willing to let someone set me right on this issue, but I see two standards that are at loggerheads in every conceivable way.

Another area of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note

It's pretty obvious that some kind of sleight of hand has occurred with our monetary system. Something of real value as property has been replaced with something of only perceived or theoretical value.



We actually have two forms of money circulating today.

1) Coins. They are issued by the US Treasury, and are not issued as debt. The government does not pay interest on this money, and the issue of these coins do not add to the national deficit.

2) Paper currency. Though a rare silver certificate (blue seal) or US Treasury Note (red seal) may sometimes find their ways into circulation, all that is printed today are Federal Reserve Notes (green seals). These are all issued as debt, with interest payable by the government... which both add to the national deficit.

Now, which of these two systems seem more honest, moral, and advantageous to the citizens and their government?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 4:35:45 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

It seems to me that using little pieces of metal that are not legal tender is barter


US Mint Issued and struck gold coins are not legal tender for the value expressed on their face?

We're not talking about some yahoo's private minting scam here. These are AFAICT American Eagles and Buffalos.





< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/8/2007 4:36:52 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 5:20:29 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		AFAICT means As Far You I Can Tell.  Yet in 30 seconds on google one can go to the US mint web site....where it says...

"A bullion coin is a coin that is valued by its weight in a specific precious metal. "  http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=american_eagle_bullion



Do you actually think a Z of gold is worth 50 dollars farg? 

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 5:26:40 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Do you actually think a Z of gold is worth 50 dollars farg?


Is the slippage in language there evading your notice?

What is the legal definition of a "dollar"?

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 6:03:50 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

AFAICT means As Far You I Can Tell. Yet in 30 seconds on google one can go to the US mint web site....where it says...

"A bullion coin is a coin that is valued by its weight in a specific precious metal. " http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=american_eagle_bullion



Do you actually think a Z of gold is worth 50 dollars farg?


The snarky response is, "What's a dollar?"

Federal Reserve Notes are denominated in Dollars, but perhaps THEY are improperly printed, and each Federal Reserve Note is actually worth 1/850th of a dollar.

Ouch. That makes my head hurt.

But really, no. Not with the way the dollars been fucked over!

I'm a big proponent of using base metals. If there was an infrastructure, grams of gold would be perfect, going for about 25 bucks and change apiece, varying on market price.

In theory, and perhaps in practice, a good thing. I don't think people could deal with the realities imposed by such a system.

As long as I can trade these Federal Reserve Notes for a cup of coffee, I'm cool with the whole arrangement.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 7:10:47 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		A dollar is a US dollar.  Man you guys have to go to ridiculous lengths to disagree with me.  US dollars are traded at a 1 to 1 ratio with petro dollars, which are worth whatever the market determines on any given day.  Approximatley 1/88th of a barrel of oil as of today, is the value. 

Responding to facts with snarkiness seems rather weak to me, but I suppose it is the best you can do.  Sorry you have such a  weak mind that thinking makes it hurt, farg.  But at least you didn't have to resort to attacking my grammer like Sugar. 

US Mint Issued and struck gold coins are not legal tender for the value expressed on their face?  

No they are not.  The mint says so, and they are not legal tender.  They can be used as barter all day long if you like, but you have to pay taxes on the market value of goods and services being bartered.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 7:17:13 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

A dollar is a US dollar. Man you guys have to go to ridiculous lengths to disagree with me. US dollars are traded at a 1 to 1 ratio with petro dollars, which are worth whatever the market determines on any given day. Approximatley 1/88th of a barrel of oil as of today, is the value.


Oil is a dumb thing to use to value currency. We need it for tupperware.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not agreeing OR disagreeing with you. Just stating my opinion -- which I summarized as "As long as I can get a cup of coffee, Federal Notes are just fine..." -- Remember, I advised that taxes are what we pay to avoid getting our balls busted, and that the formula was simple. One for you, one for Them.

But I wonder still, why do they denominate the ounce coins in the first place, though? If the denomination on the coin is just fictional, what's the purpose? 9s-fine and marks from a certifying mint are all I would care about.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/8/2007 7:18:23 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 7:20:21 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The dollar, like any other commodity on earth is worth what anyone of substance (hereinafter referred to as the buyee) will pay for it on any given day.  Fucking period, the gold standard and the actual backed by the might and gold of the us government is long gone, all at once and it looms large.  Your relative standing in the world, your might and your perceived value, in goods, in market, and even political influenc has commerce with the dollar...........we, are slipping mightily in this regard........


That is about the whole fuckoree...........



Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/8/2007 8:49:49 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Farg the design is a replica I believe, and that is the reason it has an amount on it.  To look cool.  The government doesn't pretend they are money.

Mnot that is basically true, but remeber the value of Gold goes up and down also.  It is not a fixed standard either.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/9/2007 11:41:28 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Now that this has gone in the direction of defining value, I'll have to reiterate my position on it. I'll try to be quick.

There is one "gold" standard of value and it is not gold. All the property in this country, say it is undeveloped. It's actual value will climb yes, but nothing like the rate of inflation. The only real increase in value is strictly because of supply and demand. Take the example of land that has no sewers, roads, nothing.

So in 1800 the land was worth say $2 an acre. The trick to really understand this is that it is still worth $2 an acre, it has not changed, the dollars has.

Another example could be rent. There increases in rent occur with absolutely no change in the place being rented. Similarly, when the price of a pound of potatoes goes up, have the potatoes been improved somehow ? The potatoes have not changed, the money has.

I am not sure what bearing all this has on this case, but that is where the discussion has apparently gone for now. As I said, I wouldn't have done it that way.

All I can say is that if you ever take on the IRS, you better have done your homework. And there is alot of bad advice out there. But then there is a school run by ex-IRS agents and lawyers and such. Those I might trust, but would still try to check everything they say.

The biggest problem is finding the right lawyer, alot of these people have to defend pro se. That means you have to be ready for any curve they throw you. You have to think on your feet. Literally.

I don't recommend it. Only certain people have enough to gain by going through the process.

As far as the case mentioned in the OP, if I were an employee of that company I would not accept gold as payment. Ironic, since I am an extreme Constitutionalist and libertarian. But reality is upon us. It is too much hassle to have to go sell gold coins to pay the bills.

T

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/9/2007 1:56:57 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		What you say is true, of course. It's related to supply and demand. The illusion is that long-term prices are skyrocketing when in reality, the primary cause of the appreciation of value is that the value of the dollar has been going down over the same time period.

Today's dollar value is less that 1/5th of what it was in 1971. So if you bought real estate in 1971 for $100,000, it should be worth at least $500,000 today just based upon the currency devaluation alone. Hopefully this property is located somewhere where the demand added additional value.




(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/9/2007 2:19:01 PM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		I'll have to go research if I can buy 50 dollar gold coins. Looks like they go up in value. So I find it interesting. 

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/9/2007 2:30:55 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

I'll have to go research if I can buy 50 dollar gold coins. Looks like they go up in value. So I find it interesting. 


What is it that you wish to know?

These coins fluctuate in value almost daily, due to the current spot prices in gold. Last week, they were selling in the $800-850 range. Always note the shipping and insurance costs, as they vary greatly.

(in reply to sophia37)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Nevada Businessman Trumps IRS! - 12/9/2007 2:34:47 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Here's one on eBay to bid on. It has about 3 hours left:

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-MINT-50-DOLLAR-AMERICAN-EAGLE-GOLD-COIN-1-TROY-OUNCE_W0QQitemZ160187047298QQihZ006QQcategoryZ39483QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 60
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