Do we part? (Full Version)

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Magistrar -> Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:06:33 AM)

I am new to these boards & this is my first post. I have a problem & need some advise. I am deeply in love with my sub & we have lived together for 1 year altho known each other for three. We have been on an incredible journey but I feel we have reached the end of our road together. The reason is because I feel bullied by him & I dont know which way to turn to resolve our issues. I am his first love & I have watched him grown from an introverted shy boy to someone who has gained a lot of self assuredness. Before moving in he didnt work and had been a student for several years, now that is at an end & he is working. When we moved in I lost my job & have found it hard to get a new one in the field I am qualified in. Six months later we are both stressed & I find him talking down to me & showing no respect. We talk & it seems we resolve issues but days later he is talking down to me again & our home is now somewhere I no longer want to remain. I have never been a lazy person but admit to no longer making an effort with being his D as any effort I make is slapped in my face & he tells me how crap I am at being his D. What I have noticed is that he will treat me like that but does not do it to anyone else, outside our home he is laid back & everyone's friend, in our home he is aggressive to the point of nasty & it is isolated to me only, so it seems.

When I tell him he is being confrontational & rude he excuses it by tellin me hes just tryin to help. I have told him how I feel & that my own self confidence has lowered since we have lived together & hes been consistently aggressive to me. I want us to work this out, but dont know where to start. I would be greatful for any advise you can offer.



mnottertail -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:09:04 AM)

professional counseling.

familiarity breeds contempt, I am afraid.....once there is a waltz down that path.....pretty much over in my mind, I have never worked it out from there.

Ron



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:11:41 AM)

Thank you, im beginning to think you are right



mnottertail -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:14:42 AM)

I would sit down and have a large come to jesus this weekend, no play no football games nothing.......talk talk talk and tell him how you feel what you see and what you think and how close you are to throwing it in......

see if he wants to try counseling or what........if not........adios mutherfucker.....there aint alotta choices here if nobody is willing to work on it. 


Ron



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:23:59 AM)

We had that discussion less than 1 week ago, I told him how I felt & pointed out that his aggressiveness is unacceptible & that I felt intimidated by him as his way of communicating with me is negative. He accepted the points I made & I his about me. Less than 1 week later he is back to talkin down to me again. I think he is complacent because I have no job presently which he rubs in my face constantly. I will suggest us seeing a counsellor and see if hes receptive to that. I do think that familiarity is an issue & hes crossed boundaries (i made allowances as he was going thru a hard time & couldnt cope with the stress of his job). I accept blame in this breakdown & want to resolve our issues IF they can be resolved but think it may be too late for that. He says he loves me & i am his world yet the contempt in his voice when he talks down to me is cutting.

Thank u for taking the time to give me some good advice.



thetammyjo -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:31:56 AM)

I'm sorry that mundane events, like work, has interfered but unlike a vanilla relationship, my personal experience and thoughts say that once the authority is lost in a DS relationship it is over.

If he is not respecting your authority and you are not exerting it, the remaining question is whose house/apartment was this first? If it was someone's before, obviously it remains theirs. If it was a mutual decision to live in this place I think the fairest thing is for both of you to move elsewhere (not together clearly).

Then you can try the therapy route either together but at least you should go on your own to deal with the griefs and stresses in your life. Since you didn't say you were married or in love outside of a DS context, I don't see a reason to work this through together when you can both move on to better and more positive things.



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 8:47:47 AM)

Thank you for your reply Tammyjo. We found our apartment together & finances are shared. Due to having no job presently I am unable to move out & know he would not move out. So, we're stuck for now. I have exerted my authority but admittedly made allowances as he works very long hours & naturally I would not make him do the things I would like during the week as his job does not allow for us to do so given such a short time frame for us in the evenings (just four & two of those are him 'coming down'). I do have set protocols in place & make every effort to ensure he sticks to them but u cant force a person to do what they dont want to. I have tried talking and reasoning, supporting that with physical punishments but when it gets to a point where he is constantly not doing as I asked & not responding to physical punishments I am at a loss of what to do. We need structure,, I know this and also know that he would thrive within a rigid regimen, but I need to get him to meet me half way so that I can implement this into our everyday lives.



IamJustMe2C -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 9:25:03 AM)

As i have come across something like this in my own life the differance being I was hurt on the job and unableto work. It got to the point that we stoped all of the lifestyle play and any mention of it would infuriate her. She was my slave and showed me no respect. I was looked down on for keeping the house clean while she was at work.  What else are you suposed to do with your time when you cant work and your boared off your butt you can only watch so much TV. In the end after many long conversations and trying to open up to each other and discuss our feelings. How she treated me and how I treated her (from her point of view) There was no fixing it. We became roomates for a while as neither of us could afford to move out right away. I moved into the spare bedroom took down all the BDSM aperal and bagged up all the tools that were on the wall. We tried many more times to talk and work it out. how I loved that woman and was willing to try anything to put us back together. Councelling of every sort. Date night. You name it we either tried it or it was shoved back in my face like how dare you think would help. Where she is now I dont know. But where ever she is I hope shes happy. The respect was lost and from what I learned once that is gone no amount of love can bring it back. No respect = No love



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 9:38:34 AM)

Iamjustme I am sorry to read of your experience, thank you for sharing with me. I think with my case its not a lack of respect as such & think he has major issues he's unaware of even tho I have talked with him about them & he's agreed, at the time, that he does have a problem, promises to 'try harder' & will for a short while until the next time. He has said he wants someone who will force him to comply, I am not that person & he knew that from the get-go. With any former sub I have made it clear that if they transgress I will discuss it with them, show them how they can work at correcting it, if there's a further transgression of the same kind I support it with physical punishment. I dont want to have to keep going over the same ground, repeating correcting the same fault. A person either accepts their responsibilities or they dont.

I hope you are in a happier place in your life.



thetammyjo -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 10:05:30 AM)

Magistrar, if he is unwilling to meet you half way and as you point out in one reply your dynamic requires that he does, how can you make it work?

True force would take you out of BDSM and put you into the category of abusive, would it not? So how can you force him?

At best in your given situation, since you are tied by money now, would be for you to start over as a couple. Talking won't do it, you need action. Renew your contact (if you didn't have a written one, do that this time around, having it is a good reference for you both when times get tough), come up with a set of daily rituals and rules he needs to follow and you need to enforce (make these specific and reasonable such as he is not allowed to call you by your name or he must remove his shoes in the household), and I'd strongly say get into couple's therapy too.

But I fear, much as IamJustMe2C shared, once the authority dynamic is compromised it is will be very very difficult to get back.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 10:22:09 AM)

Some people cannot disconnect issues of money and work from issues of dominance.  More than one dominant man has seen his partner lose respect and love for him when he was no longer the "provider", or at least an economic equal in the relationship.  It's an ugly thing, but some people are just wired this way, and nothing will ever separate money and power for them; if you haven't got the former, you by definition haven't got the latter.

In your position I would start actively looking for a way out.  Being without personal and economic resources when a relationship ends is a horrible experience.  Don't victimize yourself, hide in denial or refuse to consider the worst case scenario:  whether the end comes or not, you cannot be in control in your own life or anyone else's until you stop thinking in terms of "being stuck".

If you're stuck, get unstuck.  Recover your power.  Make this man an option, not a necessity, especially in the socioeconomic sense.  Figure out how to support yourself, and provide yourself with food and shelter if and when you break up.  Take steps to regain your independence.  More talking about feelings might help save the relationship, sure--but if talking alone was enough to fix it all better, it would already be fixed.  He knows how you feel--it doesn't make a difference.

Not that I'm terribly sympathetic to the "money = power" fetish, but have you thought about how he might feel?  I'm not terribly into money myself, but I have seen many other people face this problem in DS and vanilla relationships. 

Looking at it from his point of view:  From what you've said, the social and economic power dynamic you had when this man fell in love with you has changed drastically.  Back then he was a student, probably pretty broke, trying to acquire career skills and not really having a secure place in the world:  you've also said he was a shy person without much confidence.  You, on the other hand, were a working professional with a career and resources of your own, independent and strong.  He probably looked up to you a lot, admiring your competence, independence, your strength--some people really do need to feel those things for their DS partner.

Now he's the working professional, and has gained a lot of self-assurance in life--but you've fallen apart.  You don't have a job, haven't had one for months, and from what you're saying you don't have any resources of your own at all.  You're absolutely dependent on him, financially if not also emotionally, to the point that you can't even walk out the door if he acts like a prick.  He walks all over you, bullies you, belittles you--challenges yours authority and boundaries in every way.  You do nothing about it but talk.

I think a lot of submissives, male and female, would not be happy in his position. Believe me, I don't think your man is handling it well, but I do think the solution is pretty obvious either way.  You have to recover your power--not over him per se, although that would be nice, but over your own life.  Whether you choose to stick with this guy or not--and you may not, given the side of him that you've now seen--it never pays to be so helpless and without options.

Start strapping on your parachute and get some kind of money of your own coming in.  You're going to need it, one way or the other...



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 10:29:41 AM)

Tammyjo, I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding the force issue. He & I have discussed this & Ive made it plain that I am not willing to step outside the boundaries of our d/s relationship, & I'd consider forcing someone, who is non-compliant, stepping outside not only the boundaries of d/s but boundaries of a decent human being.

We have the rituals in place, he does adhere to most of them but we also have to allow for practicalities of our every day lives/encroachment of the 'outside world'. I would say those rituals are adhered to 85% of the time. I knowI need to be stricter with him, I admit I have been too lenient as this was his first d/s relationship & your advice about 'going back to basics' was great, thank you.

I know that it is going to be incredibly hard to get us back on track. I do feel that if he is willing to put in the effort & work with me, we can have a good chance of doing that. I will spend this weekend talking with him & will implement some new training techniques (for us both!) if he is willing to put in the effort.

I have taken steps to seek out a kink friendly counsellor, I have written to them today & awaiting their reply.
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Magistrar, if he is unwilling to meet you half way and as you point out in one reply your dynamic requires that he does, how can you make it work?

True force would take you out of BDSM and put you into the category of abusive, would it not? So how can you force him?

At best in your given situation, since you are tied by money now, would be for you to start over as a couple. Talking won't do it, you need action. Renew your contact (if you didn't have a written one, do that this time around, having it is a good reference for you both when times get tough), come up with a set of daily rituals and rules he needs to follow and you need to enforce (make these specific and reasonable such as he is not allowed to call you by your name or he must remove his shoes in the household), and I'd strongly say get into couple's therapy too.

But I fear, much as IamJustMe2C shared, once the authority dynamic is compromised it is will be very very difficult to get back.



laurell3 -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 10:41:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Magistrar

We had that discussion less than 1 week ago, I told him how I felt & pointed out that his aggressiveness is unacceptible & that I felt intimidated by him as his way of communicating with me is negative. He accepted the points I made & I his about me. Less than 1 week later he is back to talkin down to me again. I think he is complacent because I have no job presently which he rubs in my face constantly. I will suggest us seeing a counsellor and see if hes receptive to that. I do think that familiarity is an issue & hes crossed boundaries (i made allowances as he was going thru a hard time & couldnt cope with the stress of his job). I accept blame in this breakdown & want to resolve our issues IF they can be resolved but think it may be too late for that. He says he loves me & i am his world yet the contempt in his voice when he talks down to me is cutting.

Thank u for taking the time to give me some good advice.


Sometimes when submissives challenge and insult it's because they are uncomfortable with their own submission and role.  Could this be the case?

Regardless of the reason for the behavior one cannot live happily in a situation with another where they pick on your weak points which are obviously sensitive issues.   Counseling is a good idea as you have put alot into this relationship and love him.  However, being emotionally healthy and taking care of yourself is also important.



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 10:51:02 AM)

ShaktiSama, I appreciate your straight-talking & agree with so much of what you have said. I do have my own resources, while I do not have a job presently I do have resources (I do not receive assistance) & not dependent on my sub financially, although I am emotionally-speaking. I worded it poorly when I said I was 'stuck', I'm not as I can move with short notice if I absolutely had to. I am stubborn, I have put a lot of work into our home, so has he, I don't want to part with what I  have worked so hard to create.

What you said about seeing it from my sub's point of view really resonated with me. When we firstly lived together I was his security on so many levels (including financially). Now that he is a working man he is having considerable difficulty adjusting to working life and the stresses it brings, he is also having difficulty coming to terms with our change in dynamic in so far as him now (temporarily) being the 'breadwinner' of the household & I do think he does see my present circumstances as a weakness. I think it is an unpleasant reminder of the situation he was in & how powerless he felt in his every day life, & is perhaps projecting that onto me.

I wish I had your wisdom for being able to see aspects I hadn't in my relationship. Thank you for the kick in the pants, it was much needed and appreciated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Some people cannot disconnect issues of money and work from issues of dominance.  More than one dominant man has seen his partner lose respect and love for him when he was no longer the "provider", or at least an economic equal in the relationship.  It's an ugly thing, but some people are just wired this way, and nothing will ever separate money and power for them; if you haven't got the former, you by definition haven't got the latter.

In your position I would start actively looking for a way out.  Being without personal and economic resources when a relationship ends is a horrible experience.  Don't victimize yourself, hide in denial or refuse to consider the worst case scenario:  whether the end comes or not, you cannot be in control in your own life or anyone else's until you stop thinking in terms of "being stuck".

If you're stuck, get unstuck.  Recover your power.  Make this man an option, not a necessity, especially in the socioeconomic sense.  Figure out how to support yourself, and provide yourself with food and shelter if and when you break up.  Take steps to regain your independence.  More talking about feelings might help save the relationship, sure--but if talking alone was enough to fix it all better, it would already be fixed.  He knows how you feel--it doesn't make a difference.

Not that I'm terribly sympathetic to the "money = power" fetish, but have you thought about how he might feel?  I'm not terribly into money myself, but I have seen many other people face this problem in DS and vanilla relationships. 

Looking at it from his point of view:  From what you've said, the social and economic power dynamic you had when this man fell in love with you has changed drastically.  Back then he was a student, probably pretty broke, trying to acquire career skills and not really having a secure place in the world:  you've also said he was a shy person without much confidence.  You, on the other hand, were a working professional with a career and resources of your own, independent and strong.  He probably looked up to you a lot, admiring your competence, independence, your strength--some people really do need to feel those things for their DS partner.

Now he's the working professional, and has gained a lot of self-assurance in life--but you've fallen apart.  You don't have a job, haven't had one for months, and from what you're saying you don't have any resources of your own at all.  You're absolutely dependent on him, financially if not also emotionally, to the point that you can't even walk out the door if he acts like a prick.  He walks all over you, bullies you, belittles you--challenges yours authority and boundaries in every way.  You do nothing about it but talk.

I think a lot of submissives, male and female, would not be happy in his position. Believe me, I don't think your man is handling it well, but I do think the solution is pretty obvious either way.  You have to recover your power--not over him per se, although that would be nice, but over your own life.  Whether you choose to stick with this guy or not--and you may not, given the side of him that you've now seen--it never pays to be so helpless and without options.

Start strapping on your parachute and get some kind of money of your own coming in.  You're going to need it, one way or the other...



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 10:59:30 AM)

Hi Laurell, my submissive is very comfortable with his submission & his role. I think ShaktiSama was spot on when they mentioned a change in dynamics brought about by my present economic circumstances, ie until very recently I was the financially secure person, independent & self-reliant. We have discussed this & I feel he may be reacting on a subconscious level to my present circumstances & perhaps views them as a weakness, likely because it is an unpleasant reminder of his former circumstances. I need to focus on once again becoming independent & restoring the status quo.
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Sometimes when submissives challenge and insult it's because they are uncomfortable with their own submission and role.  Could this be the case?

Regardless of the reason for the behavior one cannot live happily in a situation with another where they pick on your weak points which are obviously sensitive issues.   Counseling is a good idea as you have put alot into this relationship and love him.  However, being emotionally healthy and taking care of yourself is also important.



YesMistressIrish -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 11:02:29 AM)

ShaktiSama said: 'I think a lot of submissives, male and female, would not be happy in his position. Believe me, I don't think your man is handling it well, but I do think the solution is pretty obvious either way.  You have to recover your power--not over him per se, although that would be nice, but over your own life.  Whether you choose to stick with this guy or not--and you may not, given the side of him that you've now seen--it never pays to be so helpless and without options.

Start strapping on your parachute and get some kind of money of your own coming in.  You're going to need it, one way or the other...'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree! Cover your ass, recoup Your power!

You mentioned earlier 'I take the blame'. It is about taking responsibility, not blame. 'Blame' puts someone at the bottom of the heap with no personal power, see?

Irish



soultoshare -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 11:06:59 AM)

Magistrate, I am submissive, and would never dream of acting in the manner that yours appears to be doing so.   My guts say get out ASAP.  I agree with the others here, once you lose the respect, on EITHER side, of a relationship, then the chance of recovery is pretty slim.  Obviously, there is something under the surface that has tipped the power exchange to say the least.  The suggestion of counseling is fine, as long as you BOTH agree to it, but if he ends up footing the bill for it, just remember, that again will give him something to "shove in your face", as you say.

I have left my job and life behind for a man.  Was unemployed for quite a bit, ended up taking a dishwashing job just to feel any sense of worth in the partnership. This was vanilla, true, but the ideas are the same.  Once I got the job I was trained for, things got better.  Truthfully, we ended up splitting, but not over anything major.

If I may offer some suggestions, first, take ANY job!  It's the Christmas holiday season, retail is hiring BIG TIME!  This will give you something to start moving forward with.  Look into housing assistance...with no income, you'll fall under the income guidelines.  And even with a minimum wage job, you should still be OK.  You have to start thinking of yourself here, get your own place, and then, once you have gotten some space between you two, then maybe you can pick up with him again.  I wouldn't, but that's just my guts talking.  I've learned the hard way, if you don't follow your inner voice, it's gonna bite you in the ass.

I'm just saying, there are options out there, look into them, take care of yourself  FIRST!  If he's acting in the manner you described now, it can only continue to go downhill.  Even disragarding the M/s aspect, part of a good relationship means supporting your partner, not trying to tear away their self-esteem and confidence.

Just my .05, you may take it for what it's worth.



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 11:20:55 AM)

I meant accepting the blame for stepping back from my responsibilities by deferring the power exchange. I do see your point & agree wholeheartedly with your comment. I do need to regain my personal power & already taking positive steps at doing so.
quote:

ORIGINAL: YesMistressIrish
I agree! Cover your ass, recoup Your power!

You mentioned earlier 'I take the blame'. It is about taking responsibility, not blame. 'Blame' puts someone at the bottom of the heap with no personal power, see?

Irish



Magistrar -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 11:41:13 AM)

He is young, has only the experience he gained through me & while I feel the relationship is in serious trouble, there is a possibility of turning it around. I have never been one to simply throw in the towel, if my submissive is not going to work with me at changing our situation I will have to move on. Until then, I will work with him to change this situation for the better.
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare
Magistrate, I am submissive, and would never dream of acting in the manner that yours appears to be doing so.   My guts say get out ASAP.  I agree with the others here, once you lose the respect, on EITHER side, of a relationship, then the chance of recovery is pretty slim.
 

Something did, he accepted a world of responsibility onto his shoulders work-wise & is struggling to cope, is highly stressed & to make matters worse, sees the independent lady he fell in love with & respected, slip from 'grace', throwing him another set of worries to deal with. He internalises his stresses until something occurs for there to be a focus as an outlet, unfortunately, it seems I am presently that outlet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare
Obviously, there is something under the surface that has tipped the power exchange to say the least.  The suggestion of counseling is fine, as long as you BOTH agree to it, but if he ends up footing the bill for it, just remember, that again will give him something to "shove in your face", as you say.


The saying, "Pride comes before a fall" is so true. When I left my job I made the decision to wait for THE job I wanted, & I did actually land it only for the contract to be cancelled within the first week of signing it, & after having turned down the next best thing! Admittedly, I wallowed, never an attractive thing for anyone. Until I get another contract in the field in which I am qualified, I will have to grab anything I can. I do have savings, I'm not in dire straits financially so wont qualify for housing assistance & its why I am not getting any other assistance either. Instead of sitting on my arse waiting for the dream job to come to me, I need to get off it & take anything until it does come along.

quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare
If I may offer some suggestions, first, take ANY job!  It's the Christmas holiday season, retail is hiring BIG TIME!  This will give you something to start moving forward with.  Look into housing assistance...with no income, you'll fall under the income guidelines.  And even with a minimum wage job, you should still be OK.  You have to start thinking of yourself here, get your own place, and then, once you have gotten some space between you two, then maybe you can pick up with him again.  I wouldn't, but that's just my guts talking.  I've learned the hard way, if you don't follow your inner voice, it's gonna bite you in the ass.


Soul, thank you for your insights & advice, it is greatly appreciated. I will certainly look after myself.
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare
I'm just saying, there are options out there, look into them, take care of yourself  FIRST!  If he's acting in the manner you described now, it can only continue to go downhill.  Even disragarding the M/s aspect, part of a good relationship means supporting your partner, not trying to tear away their self-esteem and confidence



ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we part? (12/7/2007 11:49:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Magistrar
I worded it poorly when I said I was 'stuck', I'm not as I can move with short notice if I absolutely had to. I am stubborn, I have put a lot of work into our home, so has he, I don't want to part with what I  have worked so hard to create.


Ah, I see.  I misunderstood that part of things.  Thank you for explaining--that is a bit more complex than I initially thought.

If it isn't purely a financial issue, it may just be that he is finding it difficult to make a difficult life transition in general?  He's gone from being fairly powerless in his vanilla life to a phase where he has to develope and exercise some power.  Being a working professional forces him to exert certain emotional strengths on the job.

Maybe he is finding it difficult to reconcile the new "working man" identity he has to create at work with his DS identity at home?  Especially if he is being given too much control over how dominant you feel.

If work involves a lot of pressure and responsibility, it may be that he needs a much stronger symbolic break with that life when he gets home in order to feel any relief.  As I understand it, this is why some submissives strip down to nudity or change into some sort of "slave" uniform when they lock the door behind them at the end of the day.  It is a symbolic act which helps them shed the expectations of the vanilla world and enter the DS world which is, in many respects, very real--but sometimes as difficult to reach, emotionally, as a fantasy kingdom in a looking glass. 



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