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Fear - 8/16/2005 8:46:42 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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There are a million things to fear in this emotional world, some of them so contrary:

Fear of failure ... fear of success.
Fear of things going wrong ... fear of them going right.
Fear that you aren't getting your worth ... fear that you are not worth what life gives you.
Fear of those that hurt you ... fear that without that hurt, you will be nothing to anyone.

When you read these boards and get to know people in this lifestyle, you get the idea that many don't feel quite as much fear as you sense in those outside the lifestyle. This is just an opinion, and one based on a small observation group ... but does at least seem worth mentioning.

Another observation has to do with the contrary nature of fear, and the obvious contrary nature of this lifestyle ... simply put, enduring pain as a form of pleasure, enjoying being spanked senseless as foreplay before sex, etc ...

Questions:

Are people in this lifestyle really able to handle fear better than those outside of it?

Are there people that come to this as a way to combat fear as a dychotomy they are helpless to otherwise understand?

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

Post #: 1

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:12:41 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Are people in this lifestyle really able to handle fear better than those outside of it?

No. It's just easier to type it than to live it.

quote:

Are there people that come to this as a way to combat fear as a dychotomy they are helpless to otherwise understand?

I don't think we're helpless to understand fear at all, and the only reason we have a dichotomy with pleasure/pain is because we are TAUGHT that some sensations are good/pleasureable and some senstations are bad/pain. Many people in kink have to unlearn that (and sometimes it goes too far the other way in that kinksters don't understand people who DON'T enjoy any form of pain in their play).

I use fear in my scenes because I'm a fear junkie and get off on it. But I was stranded in the middle of TN last week with a car that had just lost its transmission- I don't think I really handled it any differently or felt the fear any differently than any other person would have.

BDSM and Ds won't teach you anything extra that you can't get in vanilla life as well. If you happen to be ORIENTED towards bdsm/Ds then it will resonate more with you andp robably have a deeper impact within YOU, but that's YOU, nothing inherent to the nature of bdsm/Ds.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 2

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:21:24 AM

Faramir

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Joined: 2/12/2005
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It is my anecdotal experience that the online "seeking" community of D/s people is characterized by not just fear, but outright terror.

As a het male Master my window of observation has been on het female subs and slaves - I don't know what other Dom's and Masters are like. What I experienced with women whp sought an intense SM, D/s or M/s relationship was crippling fear again and again, with only a tiny minority of women having the guts to follow through on the RL BDSM life they sought.

-Women who desperately desire to submit and be taken, and are just terrified of that, so they seek fantasy, online, correspondence relationships.

-Women who are terrified that they are unlovable, worth anything, and so they sabotage relationships to "prove" that no oen can love them. I remember the first girl I met on B.com. Our first meeting was for three days and was pretty amazing. She was sure though I couldn't really want her - I was bound to want a younger, hotter girl - throw her out for a newer model.

She bailed out and couldn't get on the plane for second meeting. We tried again and she got so panicked the week of the second meeting that she went out and had several players in the local scene beat her to a pulp. She sent me a picture of her face - bags of blood under eyes - and told me, "You can't want me - I'm disgusting." She was right.

-Women who are terrified of of themselevs, and loathe their submissive/masochistic nature. My most common experience in BDSM has been to find some wonderful girl, have an intense encounter with her that was exactly what she wanted - she would be fucking skyhigh from what we did. Then subdrop (which I expect) but after that withdrawal and refusal - "I made a mistake, this lifestyle isn't for me, etc." And then a week later, when the cravings get strong and the fear subsides, they would want me again - followed by another terrified flight in a cycle of fear and desire. This happened repeatedly.

That's why I am so amazed by SoccerMomSlave. She doesn't understand how brave she is - how remarkable her complete surrender and acceptance of suffering from me is. Where others were terrified to step through the door, and many others couldn't face what they found out about themselves after they had stepped through the door, she has been brave enough (not fearless, but brave) to step through the door, kneel and stay.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 3

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:24:20 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Someone once said that the greatest fear is fear itself.. For many, the greatest paralysing fear is the fear of the unknown. You know those evil, things which lurk in the deepest, darkest part of your mind which hosts all the primal fears a human psyche can have.

Many people fear the dark…. Darkness is my friend. From the darkness I reach out for you and stroke you giving either pleasure or pain, comfort or paranoia…. The BDSM lifestyle does teach in many ways to deal with fear. After all are not some of your limits just labels for what you fear?

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 4

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:30:00 AM

Angrylibrarian

Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

-Women who are terrified that they are unlovable, worth anything, and so they sabotage relationships to "prove" that no one can love them. I remember the first girl I met on B.com. Our first meeting was for three days and was pretty amazing. She was sure though I couldn't really want her - I was bound to want a younger, hotter girl - throw her out for a newer model.

Oh how right you are. I'd only modify it to- "many women" are terrified... to soften the generalization.

For myself, if I am not chasing bliss it's not worth it. But I find that bliss and so maybe that’s why I don’t have fear. At a certain point or age most people find some measure of control over fear and I'd like to imagine dominants manage better then others. I’m also a huge fan of the movie ‘defending your life’ with Albert brooks where the judgment of our lives is how we deal with fear.

This is a great question. I literally try to measure fear and doubt versus the amounts of bliss in a girls life, just to gauge where she is in her training and relationship to me. I think the ratio or contrast of these two elements is a very good indicator of the health of the relationship.

< Message edited by Angrylibrarian -- 8/16/2005 9:35:32 AM >

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 5

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:40:20 AM

DesertRat

Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline

I have just had the 'opportunity' to witness an extreme example of fear-based behavior right here at collarme. It concerns and saddens me, but I am pretty much powerless over it.

Bob

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 6

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:45:54 AM

Kinkypupper

Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline

Simple answer

NO

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 7

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:53:33 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Are people in this lifestyle really able to handle fear better than those outside of it?

Are there people that come to this as a way to combat fear as a dychotomy they are helpless to otherwise understand?

caitlyn,
Emerald's astute and accurate initial comment concerning the on-line practitioners is the best answer concerning the fantasy perspective of your question. Anyone who's hit or been hit with a cane in real life fears it. Typing "WHACK" 50 times while your counter-part is typing back the count proceeded by "Thank you Master!"; isn't quite the same sensation. The only "fear" is that your snoring S.O. will wake up and see you playing with your self at the computer....AGAIN!

But on the practical real life side, I think the fear is "channeled". It's replaced by excitement, anticipation, and often pure carnal lust. When people describe themselves as being "hard wired" submissive or dominant, I think that's what they mean. A sub hearing a snapping belt may fear the slap, but anxiously anticipate the sensation.

If you ever have the chance to watch a submissive couple session without bondage being involved. It's a great dynamic that illustrates the concept. The sub feels the sting of the paddle, crop, cane, etcetera. It hurts, she/he fears the next stroke. Yet she assumes the position and begs for the next. That's channeled fear. Not less fear, just redirected.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 8

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 9:59:58 AM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline

Good thread Rice girl.

I hope to find love, but am afraid to let down my defenses....after my ex-biatch ripped out my heart, stomped on it and threw it in the toilet after dumping in it.

I wonder if she'll come back?

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 9

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 10:43:48 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Not wanting to diverge the course of this discussion I’m going to anyway…. One of the things I to as a Counsellor/Therapist is to help some people over the things which they fear the most. Its always the case that we most fear the unknown.. So when there are issues causing fear, I get my client/s seated a the dining table and place a few large sheets of butchers paper on the table with a pack of coloured markers.

Now what I have my client/s do is to write out in detail what their greatest fears are. In different colours we write out all the fears we have about each item.. At the end, we have faced our fears so that they can never cause us so much grief again. We have looked the terrible unknown right in the eyes and raised the centre digit of each handle and told that terrible fear to “FUCKOFF!!!!!!!” We have taken control of the fear which is now a situation which we have faced in the form of the worst case scenario…..

Want to know what is strange????? I used to do this with people for next to nothing to help them out. Not one of them took me seriously and kept on getting paranoid about their fears….

Now I do it as part of a package and they pay from AUS$150 for the basic two hour session to the full shebang for which they pay AU$1,000 At least this pays for my time helping those who cant afford expensive help….

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to fastlane)

Post #: 10

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 10:51:28 AM

kyakitten

Posts: 145
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

Caitlyn,

Fascinating question.

I think a lot of people substitute physical risk for an emotional one - they just skydive, or mountain-climb, or ride bikes really fast down cliffs, rather than volunteer for a spanking! The tricky part of this tradeoff is that the substituted activity can be objectively riskier than the original cause of fear.

Faramir, I wonder if that's what the woman in your example was doing. She was so afraid of her hurt at potentially disappointing you that she created something less personally frightening for her to focus on. What a tragedy, for her and for you.

I don't think it's the online BDSM community that's characterized by fear; I think it's humankind. But in limited doses it's an amazing aphrodisiac.

< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 9:19:45 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 11

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 11:42:41 AM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyakitten
I don't think it's the online BDSM community that's characterized by fear; I think it's humankind.

Liana

I do think the stakes can be a lot higher in BDSM. Exposing your heart in a vanilla relationship is a scary prospect because it entails risk - you might have it broken. Giving your neck to be collared and choked (as one example) is an order of magnitude higher in risk.

(in reply to kyakitten)

Post #: 12

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 12:03:26 PM

Fndrywmn

Posts: 16
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

While I don't know that anything in the lifestyle makes one fundamentally better equipped to handle fear, I do think D/s lends itself to confronting fear. Speaking subly, my Master is often more able to identify fears in me than I am in myself. He encourages the healthy ones and exorcises the irrational ones. The cool thing that D/s sets up in the context of a trusting relationship is that the one who gives me pain helps me bear it, and the one who brings me to my fears (or creates some), helps me to face them. I would also suggest that an aspect of TPE, his getting power or energy from me helps him hurdle what he fears as well.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 13

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 12:04:42 PM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I do think the stakes can be a lot higher in BDSM. Exposing your heart in a vanilla relationship is a scary prospect because it entails risk - you might have it broken. Giving your neck to be collared and choked (as one example) is an order of magnitude higher in risk.

But is it greater than the vanilla risks people put themselves into all the time? A soldier going into battle? A mother giving childbirth (still a VERY risky thing to put a body through)? Heart surgery? Sky diving? Mountain climbing? I don't think so.

BDSM is only one type in a huge set of risky activities humans actively choose to engage in, the grand majority of which have nothing to do with kink at all. What would we say of all those vanilla "thrill seekers" out there? Can I tell my sister's husband that my relationship is riskier because we do breath play but he goes out and mountain bikes?

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 14

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 12:39:05 PM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
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I took the question to mean, "...in intimacy," so none of that applies EM2. That's why I contrasted the stakes in intimacy.

Come now - think it through. Vanilla and BDSM both sky-dive, both go to battle, both give birth, etc etc - it is when we get to choking and being tied up and losing control that there is a seperation. It is solely in intimacy matters that words like "vanilla" and BDSM" have any meaning. We can only compare these two groups at the place where they are seperate entities.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 15

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 1:21:52 PM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

You seem to be submissive, so I'm not sure...maybe you're just really strong...

I'm a switch. I can't tell you how many things I'm scared of doing as far as my submissive side goes. I fear disappointment. I fear abandonment. I fear punishment.

Do I handle fear better because I like to be pierced with needles? No. I just don't happen to be afraid of that particular activity.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 16

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 1:41:31 PM

CalliopePurple

Posts: 2539
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: SeaTac area
Status: offline

I'm just gonna copy from my LJ because I wrote about my fears last night. Just gonna omit names.

There are a lot of things I'm afraid of. Some of them - like spiders, being lost, and having my hands injured - are things I've just come to deal with as part of my personality. Others come and go depending on what's happening to me in life.

At the moment, I'm scared I'll never find a sense of belonging in anything - a person, a place, a community, anything really. Not sure if that's the third or fourth level on Maslow's hierarchy, but I know it's important to have that sense. Kinda pathetic that I remember Maslow since I learned about him for mock trial in 10th grade. Some things just don't leave my mind, I suppose.

Also scared that the person I'm moving in with is gonna end up acting like the fucker I'm stuck with right now and treat me differently once she's had time to actually see how I act when I have about half a dozen different moods in a few day's time. Scared my lack of luck with jobs is going to continue and she'll get mad at me because of it, scared nobody else will like me because I'm too serious....

Yeah, I have insecure moments.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

Post #: 17

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 2:43:43 PM

thelight

Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

First of all, I find you very sexy. Feel free to PM me if you wish.

As for your post: I believe that fear and lust are the two most primal emotions; all other emotions are permutations of these. Fear runs so deeply within us that saying people in this lifestyle have less of it than others would be tantamont to saying that we are generally less emotional than others. We are not.

As for your first question, "better" is a relative term. Suppose two people fear flying. One accepts his fear, and travels only by land or sea. The other feels a need to conquer her fear, and becomes a fighter pilot. I wouldn't say that one handles fear any better than the other.

I'm not sure I understand your second question. I understand the part about the dichotmy of fear, but I don't understand how comming to this lifestyle is a way to overcome it. Please tell me more about why you think this is so.

I think many submissives come to this lifestyle because they delight in some of their fears. As I said, fear and lust are the two most primal emotions. I imagine experiencing both at once must be very intense.

< Message edited by thelight -- 8/16/2005 2:44:20 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 18

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 3:09:24 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Are people in this lifestyle really able to handle fear better than those outside of it?

Are there people that come to this as a way to combat fear as a dychotomy they are helpless to otherwise understand?

We were just talking about this same topic at a discussion group last night.

Essentially what we came down to was, no people within the lifestyle handle fear no different than anyone else.

The reason why you believe that they do is because if someone see's fear within you in the scene. They will abuse it. The right person will not but the predators will. So people just don't show it as much as they do in the vanilla world.
They are less likely to allow a stranger into their innermost thoughts. Hence you see less fear.

Make sense?

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 19

RE: Fear - 8/16/2005 3:17:20 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Would you not agree then, that a sub/slave who has fear and is in the hands of a trusted Dominant, he or she is less likely to hide that fear and the Dominant can use their play to help him or her work through their fear? E.G. Lets imaging I have a girl who knows me and who may be thinking about asking for a collar or becoming a regular play partner and fears needles. Surely, it is possible that she may agree to try needle play as long as its with me (because of the trust she has with me) She will know that I’d be checking her condition at every step. At least she would then have a basis to decide if this is an area which she is willing to go further or not which in any case her fear may be lessened or even discipated.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 20

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