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BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 10:30:36 AM

Veav

Posts: 150
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline

As a kink, BD can be as shallow as you feel like - it's just bedroom play, no huhu. The power structures involved in domination and submission go deeper; in a healthy, self-conscious participant, it's usually touching upon core facets of their psyche, whether they have a need to control or a need to submit. For people who have their head together, that's just fine.

What about people who don't have their head together - the ones who have unresolved issues? Don't read me wrong, I'm not saying that D/S is a sign that something needs fixing, far from it! I'm just wondering... do you think that (in general) scenes and power structures can be a safe form of therapy for such people, letting them dive into that headspace and confront their values directly? Or do you think it's something best left to a psychiatrist, and that people shouldn't be messing with that headspace unless they have it together?

Insert mental image of a shrink tying the patient to the couch with some lovely Shibari, then discussing their latent oedipal complex...

_____________________________

Yes, I am Gordon Freeman. Accept this, and move on with your life.

Post #: 1

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 10:47:51 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I think the great majority of people who try to get therapy from the scene are playing with fire and end up more messed up than ever.

That being said, I know some people who got into the scene, used it as a way to deal with stuff and grow and then moved on and are no longer in the scene, but quite happy.

Not to mention, if you are AREN'T oriented to be in the scene, no amount of kink or authority dynamic will help you. It's not the kink or Ds that does anything special- it's YOU growing into yourself, it's YOU feeling secure and stable.

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 2

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:02:04 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I’ll take this from another view if you like.. I’m giving you one of my case files without any names and well abbreviated…

One of my clients was having problems with a personality behaviour dysfunction…. In any case her Physician referred her to a psychiatrist. One he found that she was involved with the wyrd world of BDSM, and that she had a fetish about but plugs.. he went to town with ordering her to be placed on medication and kept sedated. He even convinced her mother that the girl (young woman of some 25 years at the time) should be institutionalised as being mentally unstable.. (Remember he was reacting to her BUT Plug fetish and her involvement with BDSM, which he claimed was causing her “Personality Behavioural Dysfunction” .. Which was only that she had no time for wankers as was likely to fart at them if they pushed her too far (She has been know to right hook one or two as well)

Fortunately, her Physician had her call and meets an excellent Solicitor (one of my Lodge Brothers) who forced the matter into court, where I was called as the girl’s new therapist. Please keep in mind that Personality Disorders in most cases are the providence of a Psychologist (which I am but unregistered). End result, the Psychiatrist and her Mother have Court Orders preventing them interfering in her life. I see her weekly and she is doing decently. She has a whole range of punches now as well as a whole bag of alternative methods of dealing with issues, which in the past would have caused her to hit the person.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 3

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:16:01 AM

MistressFire70

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

A person won't ever improve if they never "mess with their headspace". BDSM shouldn't take the place of a good therapist, but it does open up avenues of self-exploration. SM, in particular, has long been a component in many religions and spiritualities, for example. Following a path of Mastery or slavery can also open up avenues, provided that you give yourself totally to the path and aim to be the best you can be. *Insert Army song here*

There is a large and growing group inside the Leather community who follow these paths. Most major Leather events now have talks about spirituality and ritual. TiL, for example, has an entire weekend track about it. It's worth checking out if you're at all interested.

Fire

_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 4

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:19:30 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

I have a lot more experience with therapy, than I do with BDSM.

If therapy were part of BDSM, it would be a hard limit for me, and I would safe word the second it started.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to MistressFire70)

Post #: 5

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:28:10 AM

MsIncognito

Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav
What about people who don't have their head together - the ones who have unresolved issues? Don't read me wrong, I'm not saying that D/S is a sign that something needs fixing, far from it! I'm just wondering... do you think that (in general) scenes and power structures can be a safe form of therapy for such people, letting them dive into that headspace and confront their values directly? Or do you think it's something best left to a psychiatrist, and that people shouldn't be messing with that headspace unless they have it together?

I know someone like this and they actually admit that they are using BDSM to help deal with what they call their "control issues." After knowing this person for some time I came to realize they have way more than control issues and likely have BPD instead. IMO, the BDSM "therapy" is a woefully inadequate way to deal with the real issue and this person should be in therapy, not tied to a cross. JMHO, of course. While it's entirely up to them how they deal with these issues I simply will not play with someone who doesn't have their head on straight. As a bottom I need to know that my safety is not compromised and I feel that I would be compromising my safety (both physical and psycho-emotional) by playing with someone who's issues go far beyond the garden variety control freak type.

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 6

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:29:46 AM

pollux

Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

do you think that (in general) scenes and power structures can be a safe form of therapy for such people, letting them dive into that headspace and confront their values directly?

A couple of thoughts from a newb who's just at the start of exploring this world IRL...

Someone once asked me to write down my entire sexual & romantic history. When I was done and read it back to myself, it read like a catalog of D/s relationship dynamics. Most of it was taking place on a vanilla level and was pretty much unconscious, though -- in a lot of cases I wasn't even aware I was doing it. This was one of the reasons I decided to take the plunge and explore BDSM more concretely. My thinking was that if I allowed that submissive aspect of my personality an outlet during play, it wouldn't feel the need to run loose in my relationships and cause all kinds of trouble.

This, however, could be a completely cocked up theory, and I have no evidence whatsoever that it will work. I have my doubts. It might just be a colossal rationalization. *laughs*

Does all of that mean I consider scenes & power structures a form of "therapy" for an "unresolved issue"? I dunno. Maybe. To me, it feels more like just one way I can choose to deal with the raw materials of my personality, hopefully in a way that leads to a happier & more productive life for me (and my SO).

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 7

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:42:47 AM

harmony3709

Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

What about people who don't have their head together - the ones who have unresolved issues?

My first question is: What do you mean by "don't have their head together" or "unresolved issues"? An unresolved issue could be you never got over the playground bully who took your lunch every day in 3rd grade or it could be you were married to someone who beat you senseless (in a bad way) every day or witnessed something horrific or any other life situation that could leave someone with an "issue" to deal with.

I know some people who feel that there is some therapeutic value to a scene or in their D/s or M/s relationship, acknowledging that "therapeutic value" is a relative term. It is therapeutic for me to have a night out with my best friend and have a gab fest and vent. Many times it is also very therapeutic, or cathartic may be a better word, for me to kneel at my Master's feet and wearing my collar, and I have had scenes that are even more cathartic or therapeutic. Cleansing, in a way, definitely a release.

I also have met several people (in this case submissives) who DO have very serious "issues" and while they are obviously free to do as they wish, I definitely would not want to have any involvement, even as a spectator, to any scene they would participate in. I think that there is the possibility of triggering something that could well be beyond the Dom/me/Top's capabilities of handling safely. I was already witness to a scene like that which fortunately ended up without doing any damage, but the possibility was definitely there.

It would be rare to find someone who doesn't have issues of some sort at least from time to time. But BDSM, in my opinion, should not be viewed as a "cure" for anything. As in vanilla relationships, work WITH your partner in dealing with issues.

Blessed be,
harmony

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 8

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 11:59:09 AM

CitizenCane

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

People are screwed up. That's axiomatic. There's no single way to deal with the myriad ways in which people are screwed up. BDSM may be a healthy outlet for some, and be downright dangerous for others. Psychiatry can help some, but the wrong psychiatrist can be worse than none at all.
Of course, it doesn't matter what opinion we have about the wisdom of people with certain mental or emotional health issues getting involved in BDSM- sometimes, their attraction is fueled by their disorder. It's a pretty good idea to have some understanding of these issues yourself, and some awareness of your own limits and limitations in dealing with them.

Cane

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 9

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 1:43:08 PM

junecleaver

Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline

I've seen submissives do this. They kind of prop themselves up on a dom until they've resolved their issues. I guess as long as both people are aware of what's going on, it's not a problem. I worry about 'domination therapy' though, because if you trust or lean on the wrong sort of person then you just fall a little bit deeper into whatever problems you previously had.

I wouldn't involve myself with a dom if I knew he had a lot of issues. That might sound heartless of me? But I've already dealt with enough crazy boyfriends and could not possibly be what they are looking for in the end anyway.

So I suppose it would depend on the person and the situation. Counselling would be the safest option, I would think.

_____________________________

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 10

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 2:20:18 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

I've seen submissives do this. They kind of prop themselves up on a dom until they've resolved their issues. I guess as long as both people are aware of what's going on, it's not a problem. I worry about 'domination therapy' though, because if you trust or lean on the wrong sort of person then you just fall a little bit deeper into whatever problems you previously had.

I wouldn't involve myself with a dom if I knew he had a lot of issues. That might sound heartless of me? But I've already dealt with enough crazy boyfriends and could not possibly be what they are looking for in the end anyway.

So I suppose it would depend on the person and the situation. Counselling would be the safest option, I would think.

Hi June, I agree with your thought here. I guess it does depend on the type of relationship you have with a Dom. (perhaps it also involved non lifestyle things or you have known each other well for some time). When I meet a new person with the view of it going further than a simple acquaintance and sone one to share your table at a munch, I’d like to feel that there is at some stage before collars are seriously looked at, disclosure on all things which may impact on a potential relationship. For example, I’ll happing disclose my health issues and what we do to keep them under control as well as any trigger points such as never trying to restrain me or confining me. I’d also let her know the only things which may cause “flash backs” to PDST issues are me caught in a large crowd with no escape route (Mostly things are cool but if too many people get behind me I have been known to start seeing those crowding me as wearing black PJs and wearing black lamp shades on their head. If that happens I simply need to get into some space) or watching war movies which may be too close to home and drag up too many memories. (Good time to see a Grizzly with tears running his hairy face). As long as a potential play partner knows that I see safety as a prime matter and I wont play past any point I am uncomfortable with we are set to go..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 11

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 2:28:42 PM

luvdragonx

Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I've seen submissives do this. They kind of prop themselves up on a dom until they've resolved their issues.

That statement jumped out at me for some reason. I don't know why, maybe it will come to me later.

As far as the question of BDSM as therapy, I agree with Citizen. People are each different, so BDSM affects them differently. People who are more self aware can benefit from the BDSM therapy thing, simply because they are aware. From my understanding (and personal belief) therapy is temporary - a way to work through a problem to its resolution, or near-resolution. From therapy, one should take coping skills and exercises to do on their own without the assistance of a third party. Now, these self aware people that I mention are probably capable of managing themselves and assessing where they are emotionally. I believe they can participate in BDSM and know how it affects them and be responsible in doing so. There are other people who like being 'sick'. They never want to cure the illness, they only want to treat the symptoms. So they take anti depressants indefinitely, they see a therapists like they see their yoga instructor, they get into BDSM knowing it's a symptom and not a treatment, and don't care. If they never get better, they can blame the drugs, or the therapist, or the BDSM.

The difference overall, I think, is ones view on personal responsibility. If you are concerned about being mentally healthy, you will take the steps to learn about who you are and what your issues are, and what can be done to grow and move forward. If you are more concerned with being mentally unhealthy as a way to shirk accountability, then it makes sense that you would choose to stagnate and repeat the same destructive behaviors.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 12

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 2:47:00 PM

txparanoid

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/31/2004
Status: offline

I've probably got some issues (though not more than the average bear.) I'm also kinked. If one ever interferes with the other I want people to tell me about it, because sometimes, from my own perspective, I can't see it. It's the solipsitic nature of psychology.

(in reply to luvdragonx)

Post #: 13

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 2:55:31 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: txparanoid

I've probably got some issues (though not more than the average bear.) I'm also kinked. If one ever interferes with the other I want people to tell me about it, because sometimes, from my own perspective, I can't see it. It's the solipsitic nature of psychology.

You mean to tell me that the average Bear has issues? Well other than suitable bonking and salmon catching I mean…

I would never send one of my clients to BDSM as a means of resolving their problems, but… If a client is already into kink, and I believed that the normal interaction within the BDSM Community would help in helping the client to find themselves and to grow in areas which are lifestyle related, I’d certainly encourage him or her to indulge within limits and to go slowly. (Ok that’s the short version. There are just too many variables and no one wants me to write an opus in these threads on this subject.)

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to txparanoid)

Post #: 14

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/16/2005 7:09:57 PM

MsPurrmeow

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline

The catharsis of SM play can be therapeutic. Even the psychiatric world uses it as a means of getting a person to take down their guard and deal with what they've hidden inside. The dangers arise when someones walls do come down and no one is there to really know how to handle what comes out. People that are unprepared and untrained for some of the scary stuff shouldn't be digging into those deep holes without guidance.

As with anything else in the world, there is a level at which we can "deal with", "handle" and "process" mental and psychological issues ourselves. It's a form of growing into our own beings. There is also another level of issues that the untrained have no business stepping in. This is a question that cannot be answered in black and white. Sometimes the answer to a light depression is a good hug. That's therapeutic and reassuring. A deeper depression requires a different treatment. Sometimes the answer to a rough week could be a flogging from a loved one, other times it needs a professional.

When ego steps in and tries to make a person believe they can handle whatever demons come out of another person without regard to reality, then there's a problem. Typical of all BDSM issues. If it's about ego, then it will probably end up poorly. If it's about loving, caring, nurturing and so forth, then likely the person will end up where they need to be, even if that's a psych office and not the friendly neighnorhood dungeon. When in doubt, tread lightly.

A few caution signs that I've run across are as follows. People that use the terms: "Need", "Desperate", "ONLY", or "lost without" in conversations related to play are highly likely to be more drama than I am trained (or care to) deal with. Others who use phrases including "explore" "growth", "learn" and "trust" have usually shown behaviors more closely identified with good mental health. For me, it's just as much about WHY they want to play as it is about getting the opportunity to flick a cane.

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 15

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/17/2005 12:49:32 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

Others who use phrases including "explore" "growth", "learn" and "trust" have usually shown behaviors more closely identified with good mental health. For me, it's just as much about WHY they want to play as it is about getting the opportunity to flick a cane.

Excelent post. I have a slightly different reason for becomming involved in some aspects of BDSM which I may not usually look at. Its goes like this. When I get a girl in my collar and she is keen on BDSM I had better have at least a basic understanding about what she likes and/or wants. As I learn more I may even earn my spurs on some areas but at least I will gain suffieient that I can continue to grow with her and understand what not to do in any given play area so I can be satisfied that if she plays with another person she is in safe hands. I guess you get my drift.. The more I am learning and experience, the more I want to learn. For me its not just accademic, but its like a drum where you want more..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to MsPurrmeow)

Post #: 16

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/17/2005 2:40:03 AM

NakedOnMyChain

Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline

I think that it's something that has to be dealt with on an individual basis. It can be perfect for some, but dead wrong for others and people end up getting hurt.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 17

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/17/2005 2:51:43 AM

saret

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

What about people who don't have their head together - the ones who have unresolved issues?

I'm just wondering... do you think that (in general) scenes and power structures can be a safe form of therapy for such people

Well. I look at it like this:

Even if sex (or any intimate contact) is not involved, BDSM is still a form of sexuality. Much more complex, intense, etc etc blah blah, but still a form of sexuality.

Can you solve unresolved issues through normal, vanilla sexual relationships?

I think it help you grow and develop as a person. I think it can help you identify issues, and gain insight into yourself. But while friends and lovers and Mistress and Masters and subs and slaves are there to support and help you, all personal issues are ultimately dealt with personally. In your own head, in your own choices, in your own self-knowledge.

It may stop the bleeding, but it won't stitch the wound.

-S-

(in reply to Veav)

Post #: 18

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/17/2005 4:32:24 AM

Shayna

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline

Well...I think a highly structured relationship with a power differential CAN be a relationship some are in so that they DON'T have to deal with their personal issues. A submissive that wants the Dom to take control and all the responsibility for their lives - great way to not have to be an adult and grow up. I've also seen Doms that use a position of control as a way to not have to deal with vulnerability and intimacy. I agree that if the words "growth" describes someone's experience in a relationship, then that's a great sign. "Stunted growth" is problematic.

(in reply to saret)

Post #: 19

RE: BDSM and therapy - 8/17/2005 4:48:36 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Again its is a basic tenet that you just can not make a blanket ruling or a model about BDSM Therapy. No two couples are the same. What you can do is to study the scene and a range of relationships and then state that if ##### happens then one method may be &&&& if certain conditions are present. Even then such a “model” is only effective in the short listing of possible scenarios, which may be of benefit and eliminating many other techniques, which will be detrimental. However I doubt that many would be prepared to spend the time to do such research.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Shayna)

Post #: 20

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