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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/17/2007 3:28:39 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer

In my limited experience those questions are geared at getting a response that outlines your true desires, not the ones you think she wants to hear. A sub who is feeling rather frenzied, as they often do, will not think as clearly and express a higher level of interest in an activity than they really feel. At the core what she's really looking for is the things that drive your submission. Why do you want to submit? Why would you want to do various things? What would you get out of a relationship with a Domme, as a person not as a fetishist.

Basically you have to learn to get beyond the kink laundry list to the root of your desires. Knowing that. she'll have a very good idea of whether or not there is real compatibility there and a lot to work with if you ever meet to play.


If the relationship is starting out as fairly transactional, it's best for both people to be clear about what they want out of it up front.  Too many submissives state, "I really just want to please. I love following instructions.  I like to make a woman happy."  In most cases, this is all bullshit.  You can usually divide subs into two categories - physical and emotional.  For the physical sub, he should really be saying, "I just want to please (if it makes my dick hard), "I love following instructions (especially if they have to do with my cock)," or "I like to make a woman happy (if it involves my tongue and her pussy or ass)".

For an emotional sub, what he really needs to be saying is, "I just really want to please (when I feel mutually attracted and/or in love)" or "I like to make a woman happy (if she's as invested in making me happy)" or "I love following instructions (if I know I will be praised, rewarded and cherished by a lady who adorse me)."   Those are HONEST.  These open ended promises of devotion are tired and most often empty. Be honest with yourself and the woman you are talking to.  What DO you NEED?

Please, give me an open ended, devoted man who wants to please me unconditionally without any of the above criteria!  They are rare, but they do exist.  And they have to be cherished, nurtured and NEVER taken advantage of. Still, it requires some chemistry or forget it - as it should be!

I am all in favor of more transactional type exchanges to get a relationship off the ground.  I have a host of hungry fetishes that need to be fed, and the most unconditionals subs line up, but in short order they are suddenly concerned about their needs, which were never mentioned up front.  I don't expect a submissive man, who is a relative stranger or new to me, to do things unconditionally for me if he does not get some reward. I am happy, though, to barter with him.  It's all about being up front.

Akasha


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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/17/2007 4:10:04 PM   
talltxsub


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As usual, AAkasha has the most concise evaluation.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/17/2007 4:43:38 PM   
CdnExplorer


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I guess I sort of assumed that people would discuss checklist compatibilities up front. If you can discuss your checklist, and then also discuss the "why" that would lie behind open ended expressions like you mentioned, then you might be getting somewhere. The key for a submissive is to truly understand what you want and why. I imagine most dominants could take it from there, assuming basic compatibility was present.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/17/2007 4:52:24 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer

I guess I sort of assumed that people would discuss checklist compatibilities up front. If you can discuss your checklist, and then also discuss the "why" that would lie behind open ended expressions like you mentioned, then you might be getting somewhere. The key for a submissive is to truly understand what you want and why. I imagine most dominants could take it from there, assuming basic compatibility was present.


Here is the ironic thing. In my experience, most submissives, in initial conversations, care very little about "why" a woman is dominant -- just want to know what she is into/what she does.  The question of, "Why do you enjoy doing this? What motivates you? Why are you like this?  What things have you learned that you enjoy that you did not expect and how did that happen?  What are your fantasies that you hold closest to yourself protectively?" -- I find these are not the questions submissives ask. They ask, "What would you do to me?  What kinky acts do you enjoy? Do you have any orders for me?  What questions do you have for me?"

It's not all the time, but it's quite frequent. 
I'll post something I wrote in 1997 (yikes, I'm old!) about this issue.  It's fairly melodramatic, so take it with a grain of salt if you can get through it.  I was struggling through some issues at the time with feeling objectified by submissive men.

**



When I was very young, I used to actively fantasize about kidnapping and keeping a boy prisoner. This boy might be a made-up character, or the boy sitting across from my in my first grade class.

Even at that young age, I found the thoughts to be more than just idle fantasy. I found something very uniquely intense about the images, which were often elaborate.

I knew I was different. But I saw it -- in an abstract way -- like it was a gift. Like I was a sly, sinister, cunning little creature.

This, I know, even though I wasn't even in my teens.

To this day, when I look at a man and decide I must have him, the rush is the same. I feel almost like the evil sexy vixen in a movie, plotting something dangerous and nasty, and the rush alone is exciting. Now, as an adult, the desires are more tangible -- I can formulate and predict what might happen. Hell, I can even try to make them a reality. I can *make* that boy my prisoner.

This desire is, and always has been, a very mystic, primal, and passionate thing to me.

Unfortunately, few men see it that way.

*****

And that is the source of my woe. As a female domme, a real life, breathing, walking, living female domme, I am totally misunderstood by every single victim who seeks me out.

Those very ones that have studied, apparently, everything there is to know about my kind, come to me and know nothing about who I am and why I do this.

Even worse, I am seen as an object -- a means to an end for their sexual gratification.

That little girl in the first grade, sitting and peering at the boy she had a crush on. She never expected to be treated this way.

*****

Sometimes I feel like the goose that lays the golden eggs. To many men, I have this unique quality.

Yes, we are getting closer now!

I am unique. I have a unique aspect to me. I was born with it, I wasn't even one of those *converted* gooses. Damn, I was laying the golden eggs when I was 10. And I will be most certainly laying the golden eggs until I'm 85. I'm certifyably 100% golden-egg laying.

And what is the first thing I hear from those that search long and hard to find me?

"Can I get one of those eggs?"

"So, how many of those eggs can you produce? How about a few more?"

"Can you make the eggs bigger?"

I sit here, the goose, wondering why they don't come to me and wonder about the magic behind the trait. How come no one cares how beautiful this is? How come they don't revel in the beauty of this creation?

Because, believe it or not, even though I have been "laying golden eggs" since I was in the first grade, the gift still amazes me. I am still mystified and awed by the power, the passion of what drives me to dominate men.

And those subs that search long and hard to find someone like me, they don't know how much a woman like me would be touched to hear, just once, "Your gift is mystical, amazing, terrifying, and alluring. You are a magical creature."

Instead, it's "Can I see an egg? Ok, maybe not. Can you tell me what the egg looks like? Describe it to me, it sounds hot."

Well, you get the picture.

*****

Let's bring it down to more realistic terms. When I interact with submissives, especially those that have sought me out, their interest seems immediately focussed on:

1. Their image of what a female domme is 2. What I *do* 3. How can they position themselves to get some of it

When I was in my early teens and starting to realize that sex, intimacy and my "urges" were all linked, I was still living in a pretty idealistic world of female domination. Because my partners were naive teenage boys, and I was a naive teenage girl. When it came to femdom games, I could have just as easily been that first grader, now only I had a few more "tools", namely hormones and instinct, to give me an edge.

Those were some of my most gratifying times. I was constantly told things like, "Wow, you are amazing, when you get like that", and "I've never felt like this before. Scared and excited at the same time."

Those were good things, yes. But it wasn't until much later that I met someone who seemed to understand..no, to *appreciate* the female domme side of me.

*****

How do you appreciate the goose that lays the golden eggs? Do you ask for more eggs, or do you appreciate the magic that makes it happen?

*****

Amazingly, it was a good 4 or 5 years of dabbling in female domination before someone really appreciated it.

No one had ever asked me, "Why do you do it? How does it make you feel?"

And he didn't just ask. He wanted to know.

"When you get like that, how does it make you feel inside, do you lose yourself?"

Questions that I could not even answer.

"Do you want to hurt me, Akasha? Do you want to control me, or do you want to make me perform?"

Some things I had to just shrug at and think about for days before I could answer.

"I see how it affects you. It is amazing. I've never seen anyone act like that before. You're an amazing creature, Akasha."

Wow. Here he was, taking it all, and he was enamored with the beast; not just what the reward might be.

He didn't give a damn about the eggs. He was infatuated with the goose.

*****

This isn't just another rant about "love the person before you love the domme." That's a given.

This is about "love what creates the domme, not just what the domme does."

Sometimes I feel like I am a vampire. I go about my daily business, happy and smiling and relatively undominant (though not shy at all), and then it hits me. I become a stalking, hungry creature.

When I make a man submit to me, I am ruthless, sinister, and nasty. And I do not hide that his submission makes me even more relentless.

As an adult femdom, when I "feed on" a submissive that knows his way around the BDSM niche, I still get amazed when later he reflects back and says, in essence, "Wow. You really know how to suck blood. Do you want some more?"

I feel quite saddened at that point.

Why do none of them say, "Wow. That was intense. How does that hunger for blood affect you? What does it feel like? What makes you want more? how did you become this way? Does it come and go?"

I realized, a few years ago, sadly, the answer.

Most don't really care. They come face to face with what they have invisioned as a fantasy object, and they have all the answers already in their head. They know why the vampire wants the blood, they know why the goose lays the golden eggs. Their concern is more about how much blood can they keep giving, and will the supply of eggs stay the same.

*****

My big question is: Why is it that submissives ask fewer questions than vanillas? The easy answer is that they know more about "the scene" and have fewer questions, but think beyond that.

If a submissive has been looking for a femdom for a long time, and finally meets one, why are his questions about what she can do and not why she does it?

Why is it that the vanilla men are the ones that sit back after a scene and go, "What drives that beast inside of you?"

*****

I have theories. One is that submissives have ideas already about the mystery behind female dominance, so they don't have the desire to ask the questions.

Another theory is that they don't really care.

The problem is simple -- I do care. I still have a fascination with what makes me this way, and the feelings associated with it. I still find it a magical, mystical thing.

I want to be appreciated for it. I want to be feared for it. But most important, I want to be appreciated and feared for the *essence* of it, for the fact that it exists, for the mystery of its existence -- I don't want to be appreciated for the golden egg that it provides.

If you want the egg, you can go buy it and put it on your shelf. Then you have it. There is nothing magical about that.



< Message edited by AAkasha -- 12/17/2007 4:53:05 PM >


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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/17/2007 5:18:19 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisTabsDratt

So I'm working on being "Intuitive."  :)



Intuitive for a guy: Knowing where the fish are biting, knowing that the nut and bolt you just dropped both rolled to the most remote corner without even looking for them, or knowing you will never win an argument with "her" be that your wife, GF, SO or mother.

*chuckle*

Master Fire


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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/17/2007 5:44:10 PM   
LadyHugs


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Dear takenbyjohnr07, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
There are as many submissive male types as there are stars in the sky and, the same can be said for Dominant women.  Each person is unique and should be considered for their total self, not just for sex, the kink and the 'do for me' factor.
 
My choices are based on their maturity, their manners and how they go beyond the M/s and what interests they have beyond the sex and kink.  I want a well rounded relationship--not just based on kink alone.  And, at my age--sex is the last thing on my list.  (I think my eggs got old-Chuckles)
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted with a bit of wit,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/18/2007 5:18:23 AM   
peterK50


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I was brought to submission based on a specific interest, [I'm loathe to call it a fetish]. Over time and with some training I began to see my submission not about what I wanted, but how best to give my Owner what they needed. I suppose you would call that "service oriented" rather then "do-me" submission. Doesn't really get me much traffic but to thine own self be true.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/18/2007 8:39:49 AM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

I was brought to submission based on a specific interest, [I'm loathe to call it a fetish]. Over time and with some training I began to see my submission not about what I wanted, but how best to give my Owner what they needed. I suppose you would call that "service oriented" rather then "do-me" submission. Doesn't really get me much traffic but to thine own self be true.


I'm getting pretty tired of seeing comments that suggest that anything that's not pure service is "do-me". What a pile of BS! Yes, there are "do-me" subs at one end of the spectrum, and pure service subs at the other, but there are an infinite number of levels in between. It's a continuum, not a black-and-white, two-option question.

Frankly, it could be argued that "service subs" are just as much "do-me" as anyone else. They say that the only thing that matters is serving the owner, how to give the owner what they need. OK, then I'd like these subs explain WHY serving is so important to them. Does it excite them? Does it give them pleasure or a sense of fulfillment? If so, then they're ultimately doing it for themselves. The only difference between a service-oriented sub and any other type of sub is what turns them on.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/18/2007 10:03:15 AM   
peterK50


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Ask the Dom/mes here. I think that they'll say that there is a big difference.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/18/2007 11:06:00 AM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Ask the Dom/mes here. I think that they'll say that there is a big difference.


Yes, as I stated, the difference is in what turns them on. Nothing more, nothing less.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/18/2007 12:18:02 PM   
peterK50


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Now you speak for the Dom/mes here.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/18/2007 1:02:16 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


Frankly, it could be argued that "service subs" are just as much "do-me" as anyone else. They say that the only thing that matters is serving the owner, how to give the owner what they need. OK, then I'd like these subs explain WHY serving is so important to them. Does it excite them? Does it give them pleasure or a sense of fulfillment? If so, then they're ultimately doing it for themselves. The only difference between a service-oriented sub and any other type of sub is what turns them on.


I have found some "service subs" to be the most demanding and unrealistic subs from an expectations standpoint.  They can be tremendously needy because they want direction all the time and affirmation the rest of the time - it's attention that they seek, a sense of belonging, sometimes related to low self esteem.  What happens is they can be passive aggressive, they sulk when they don't get enough attention, their ego needs constant feeding.  At least with a fetishist, you know what you are dealing with. When you get angry/impatient with a sulking service sub, you get a guilt trip, because you must be a selfish bitch for not recognizing they just want to feel loved and needed.  The service always comes with a price -- it's usually an expectation for something in return.  The problem is that it's intangible, and sometimes it's never enough, because you are dealing with someone's self self image and self worth tied into how good a job they feel they are doing.  God forbid a femdom has a bad day and can't be doting on what a good job he is doing all the time.  I prefer self starters and subs that get pleasure out of the act, not the recognition.  When I see a man claming he honestly has NO fetishes or kinky needs but gets ALL his pleasure for "serving" I run for the hills.  It means what he needs is not something defined or realistic and if it's tied into his day to day self esteem and happiness, it can be a black hole.

Akasha


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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/19/2007 2:17:30 AM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Now you speak for the Dom/mes here.


No, that's what you're trying to do. I've only stated a fact - that the difference between a service sub and any other kind of sub is what turns them on. No matter how "selfless" someone appears, they are always getting something out of it, or they wouldn't do it. What they get is often not visible or obvious, but it's there.

< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 12/19/2007 2:24:02 AM >

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/19/2007 2:28:03 AM   
hardbodysub


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Thank you, Akasha. Extremely insightful, as usual. If I was in LA, I'd check out your recent task offer.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/19/2007 2:44:58 AM   
MissMagnolia


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Well, AAkasha spoke perfectly on my behalf, so thank you.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/19/2007 5:45:25 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


I'm getting pretty tired of seeing comments that suggest that anything that's not pure service is "do-me". What a pile of BS! Yes, there are "do-me" subs at one end of the spectrum, and pure service subs at the other, but there are an infinite number of levels in between. It's a continuum, not a black-and-white, two-option question.

Frankly, it could be argued that "service subs" are just as much "do-me" as anyone else. They say that the only thing that matters is serving the owner, how to give the owner what they need. OK, then I'd like these subs explain WHY serving is so important to them. Does it excite them? Does it give them pleasure or a sense of fulfillment? If so, then they're ultimately doing it for themselves. The only difference between a service-oriented sub and any other type of sub is what turns them on.


Here's clue for you:  I doesn't matter what a man looks like so much as how he makes his woman feel.
 
While you are prancing your "hard body" around hoping to impress  a mistress as to how lucky she is that she has you, it is the man at her feet whose only concern is her comfort and pleasure at her direction as well as a few of his own ideas he thinks she would like (because he cared enough to learn about her).  THAT's what a service submissive does.  They anticipate needs of the Domme and in return..they get more than you know :)  A very happy Domme is a wondrous thing.




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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/19/2007 8:20:08 PM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


I'm getting pretty tired of seeing comments that suggest that anything that's not pure service is "do-me". What a pile of BS! Yes, there are "do-me" subs at one end of the spectrum, and pure service subs at the other, but there are an infinite number of levels in between. It's a continuum, not a black-and-white, two-option question.

Frankly, it could be argued that "service subs" are just as much "do-me" as anyone else. They say that the only thing that matters is serving the owner, how to give the owner what they need. OK, then I'd like these subs explain WHY serving is so important to them. Does it excite them? Does it give them pleasure or a sense of fulfillment? If so, then they're ultimately doing it for themselves. The only difference between a service-oriented sub and any other type of sub is what turns them on.


Here's clue for you:  I doesn't matter what a man looks like so much as how he makes his woman feel.
 
While you are prancing your "hard body" around hoping to impress  a mistress as to how lucky she is that she has you, it is the man at her feet whose only concern is her comfort and pleasure at her direction as well as a few of his own ideas he thinks she would like (because he cared enough to learn about her).  THAT's what a service submissive does.  They anticipate needs of the Domme and in return..they get more than you know :)  A very happy Domme is a wondrous thing.





You presume far too much, and you missed the point, as expected.

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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/20/2007 12:10:41 AM   
littlesarbonn


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I've been close with a lot of female submissives over the years; sometimes even served the same dominant woman alongside them. What I started to notice, and they as well, is that I find myself identifying with the same type of submissive behavior they display. So I don't know that it really has much to do with being female or male that constitutes the style of submissiveness. What I think it has to do with is how you see yourself as a submissive.

I think too many people are inclined to try to put people into comfortable boxes where they can designate and nomenclate the style someone is as a part of their being, rather than a style of how they perceive submission. I've come under the scrutiny way too many times of people who have self-described perfection complexes on how submissives should act, and if I do not conform to those expectations, then for some bizarre reason I'm not a "true" submissive.

What I have noticed over the years is that in some specific situations I'm different than some other submissive. At one time, I was serving a woman alongside a female submissive. The female sub loved to act bratty and do everything possible to twist commands out of context. It was a game for her. I never could get comfortable with that. But it didn't mean her way of submission was wrong, or that mine was wrong. We both interacted together as a team when it came to being a team (she being a little brattier than me, of course), so everything worked out because our styles of submission BOTH complemented each other for the woman we were serving. SHE was happy with what she was receiving from both of us.

I believe people have a set way of participating in such relationships and they may evolve or devolve based on positive and negative reinforcement. But there are so many different people with so many different wants and desires (without even taking into account what the DOMINANT might want) that the whole "real" or "right way" attitude seems so limiting to me.

I like who I am, and for the most part, I've liked who everyone else has been in the scene I've shared time with. We weren't the same. Well, there was one woman who could have been me, or me her, but that was just weird and a one specific example out of context. But everyone I participated with has turned out to be a positive factor in some way or other. The fact that they were all so different is what made them both unique and fascinating. It never really mattered if they were men or women because stereotypes and jerks can throw off an average each and every time.


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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/20/2007 9:13:04 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
You presume far too much, and you missed the point, as expected.


You did too. 

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I'm not your type.
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RE: Male submissiveness - 12/20/2007 1:03:18 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
You presume far too much, and you missed the point, as expected.


You did too. 


Nope, didn't miss your point. Unfortunately, it wasn't relevant. All you did was make false presumptions about me, and then proceeded to state the obvious about what dommes like service subs to do. None of that had anything to do with my comments.

And, since this is getting tiresome (to everyone, I imagine), I'm not going to bother to respond to any more here. Say what you want. I'd rather let the thread get back on track if anyone has more to contribute.

< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 12/20/2007 1:06:41 PM >

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