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Aneirin -> government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:09:26 AM)
Governments and their religous views ; Should religion and religous beliefs be kept out of politics, government etc ? Should a leader be allowed to justify their actions by quoting reference to a personal religous or spiritual belief ? Would it be better for all if religion became a personal belief and not that of a country?

popeye1250 -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:22:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Governments and their religous views ; Should religion and religous beliefs be kept out of politics, government etc ? Should a leader be allowed to justify their actions by quoting reference to a personal religous or spiritual belief ? Would it be better for all if religion became a personal belief and not that of a country? Aneirin, yes, we're supposed to have a "separation of church and state" in the U.S. I don't know what they do in England. Presidential candidate Mitt Romney made an eloquent speech about this last week. Personally, I really don't want to even hear about a candidate's religion or theological beliefs. Besides that what we really need in the U.S. is a "separation of big business and state." Our legislation is being crafted by big business!

OrionTheWolf -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:24:54 AM)
Countries, like corporations, have interest. The people who run the country have morals, and their ethics are developed from the morals. The ethics of those in power, should guide them in determining the interest of the country. What has occured, is that the ethics and morals have been removed. here in the US, we have a constitution that is supposed to be the guiding ethics (laws) of how our Federal Government is to act as a servant of the people, and states. That document has been re-interpreted so many times, as to truly distort the original intent. Many use rationalizations for these distortions, but if we apply the original intent and letter of the law, from the US Constitution, the US would not have done many things that it has. In this response, the word morals is not to use a singlular definition, from religion or anything else. It is used as a word to describe what a person feels is right and wrong. A person's morals depends upon what they consider virtues, and not many in the world have ever sat down and determined what they believe is a virtue or not. Live well, Orion

IrishMist -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:26:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Countries, like corporations, have interest. The people who run the country have morals, and their ethics are developed from the morals. The ethics of those in power, should guide them in determining the interest of the country. What has occured, is that the ethics and morals have been removed. here in the US, we have a constitution that is supposed to be the guiding ethics (laws) of how our Federal Government is to act as a servant of the people, and states. That document has been re-interpreted so many times, as to truly distort the original intent. Many use rationalizations for these distortions, but if we apply the original intent and letter of the law, from the US Constitution, the US would not have done many things that it has. In this response, the word morals is not to use a singlular definition, from religion or anything else. It is used as a word to describe what a person feels is right and wrong. A person's morals depends upon what they consider virtues, and not many in the world have ever sat down and determined what they believe is a virtue or not. Live well, Orion I would have to agree with this pretty much.

Termyn8or -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:40:57 AM)
Interesting. Many claim the US to be a Christian country, when the whole idea of a state religion was repugnant to the founding Fathers. Supposed patriots, having read the Constitution somehow get the idea tangled up, perhaps from reading between the lines. I have a saying "Don't read between the lines, READ THE LINES !". Here's a line from the Constitution "endowed by their Creator". It did not say God, Allah, YHWH, Jehovah, Budda or or the fucking Japanese Emperor, or anything else. It said "Creator". Why do you suppose that is ? That indicates to me that the framers of the government intended to not bring their personal beliefs into their public service, short of their empirical morality. (yup I coined it I guess) However they have been talking one way and acting another from the start. Laws against fornication, anal sex, all that, have been on the books for a long time. These were never meant to be in the land of the free. They can tell you what you can do with your Wife in bed ? Where is the freedom ? Those are not my words, they are the words of a Russian immigrant. (Andrey, an electronics tech) It's more than that, it's even basic morality. Laws against sodomy, we had them. I'll tell you now that I do not approve of it, I think it is unnatural. Guess what I am going to do about it. I won't do it. Each of us has to keep our own morality. Why should I worry about what you are doing in bed ? You ain't hurting me. Every once in awhile you see sites or posts about funny laws. Well I don't think they are so funny. They make me think "Who the hell do these people think they are ?". They pass this shit ? We are in big big trouble. Indeed we are. As a society we are losing our coherence, as people we are losing our drive and ambition, and our leaders no longer have any loyalty to us. Come to think of it we are in big trouble, but those who caused it are OK as long as they believe in their Savior. No wonder aliens don't come here. T

IrishMist -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:44:26 AM)
quote: No wonder aliens don't come here. LOL That made me laugh

bipolarber -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 8:54:06 AM)
The founding fathers of the US Constitution were well aware of how Theocracies destroyed freedom throughout Europe. So, they set things up here so that there would be no "state approved" religion. People are free to believe as they wish, or believe nothing at all, if they are so inclined. Unfortunately, Americans tend to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, and that a big bearded guy sits on a throne in the clouds, ruling over the Earth like a malign thug. Because of that, they tend to follow nutcases who think the same way they do. Look at Huckabee right now... the guy supports creationsim in America's schools, to put gays in concentration camps, and let rapist murderers out of prison to commit their crimes again and again... yet Iowa (bastion of advanced thought) puts him in the lead of the GOP rabble. Go figure. Look overseas right now and see what theocratic rule has done for the people there. Check out how happy and free the folks (especially the women) are in Afhganistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia... Next, go out and rent "The Midwife's Tale." Think about how we come coming closer to that kind of religious dictatorship every single day. Despite what Romney says, you CAN have freedom without religion. In fact, history seems to support quite the opposite. The more your mind is free from "religious authority" the happier, more prosperous, and justice oriented your society ends up being.

NorthernGent -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 9:20:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Should religion and religous beliefs be kept out of politics, government etc ? It's vital for prosperity, equal access to opportunity and freedom; religion inevitably leads to exclusivity and a club: in other words, division, oppression and conflict. quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Should a leader be allowed to justify their actions by quoting reference to a personal religous or spiritual belief ? Not in England; were he/she to do so, then he/she wouldn't be acting on behalf of 90% of the population. quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Would it be better for all if religion became a personal belief and not that of a country? Thankfully, this is the case in England.

NorthernGent -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 9:44:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bipolarber The founding fathers of the US Constitution were well aware of how Theocracies destroyed freedom throughout Europe. So, they set things up here so that there would be no "state approved" religion. With regard to 18th century Europe, the above is absolutely correct, and at that time it must have been a marvellous change of direction in human progress to establish a system where almost anyone could be the top man (well, providing you were over 35 and a man). It didn't take them long to fall into the trap of exclusivity, however, with certain states requiring voters to be of the Protestant faith.

RCdc -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 9:47:52 AM)
Religion? Yes. Should be left out. Leader? No. Should not makes and justify actions because of personal religious belief. Better if religion didnt exist at all and only personal belief. the.dark.

seeksfemslave -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 2:38:52 PM)
The question is a typically mindless quasi authoritarian one that could only be asked by a politically naive product of what passes for education in the late 20th early 21st century. Liberal thought is tending towards a level of authoritarianism that, tho' it may not reach the level of religious "enthusiasts" of the past, is still quite prepared to stamp on your freedoms in futherance of the "cause". Be useless or downright dangerous and you will never be short of liberal support. Be religious then be prepared to have your credentials examined. I speak here of Europe. The one exception is Muslims who unless they are caught "planting the device" can do no wrong

NaiveTempest -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 2:57:10 PM)
I agree with pretty much all that has been posted here. Religion is used to support many actions that are morally unjust. Religion, Big Business and State need to be separate. But, it ain't happening. People get away with some real crazy and fucked up shit in the name of relegion all around the word. I saw a documentary about a 9 year old girl in Argentina who was raped and got pregnant. Guess what the uproar was over? Whether or not she had the right to an abortion. SHE WAS FREAKING NINE YEARS OLD!

slaveboyforyou -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 5:25:30 PM)
quote: Thankfully, this is the case in England. It's not? I thought the Church of England was supported with public funds. People bitch about the religious fanatics in this country, but they forget that we are one of the few Western societies that does not support religions with public funds. There is a seperation of church and state here. Seperation does not mean that public officials are barred from having beliefs and discussing them.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 5:47:01 PM)
quote: Look at Huckabee right now... the guy supports creationsim in America's schools, to put gays in concentration camps, and let rapist murderers out of prison to commit their crimes again and again... yet Iowa (bastion of advanced thought) puts him in the lead of the GOP rabble. Go figure. All of that is total bullshit Bipolarber. Huckabee never made one proposal during his administration here to have creationsism made part of the public school curriculum. All he did was state his beliefs about evolution. I don't agree with him, but he is entitled to his beliefs. He never once made any statement about putting gays into concentration camps. You pulled that one right out of your ass apparently. He made a suggestion about quarantine for AIDS carriers in the early 90's when the disease was a death sentence for anyone carrying it. That is not exactly a authoratarian thing to do. We quarantine people with deadly diseases all the time. He did suggest to the parole board that they grant Wayne Dumond parole. So did Jim Guy Tucker, and there was a reason for that. There was some DNA evidence that suggested he was innocent. This was before the modern advancements in DNA research, so it wasn't entirely accurate. I met the victim of Wayne Dumond when I was taking a criminal justice course in Little Rock in the early 90's. She was ther telling her story after Tucker commuted Dumond's sentence. I've read a lot of your posts where you talk about how Huckabee was so horrible for Arkansas. Yet you never really say what he did that was so horrible. Huckabee expanded health care coverage for children in this state. Our road were finally fixed during his administration, which is something that Tucker and Clinton never did. I remember when it took 2 hours to drive from Hot Springs to Little Rock. He was instrumental in fixing our economy and education system, also something that Tucker and Clinton never did because they pandered to the teacher's unions and to labor interests. I remember when Conway (your resident town) only had 15,000 people with nothing but the colleges there. They now have major industries and are one of the fastest growing cities in Arkansas. That's all thanks to Huckabee's administration. So you can gripe about him all you want. I think he did a damn good job here. I don't subscribe to his religion, but I don't judge a man because of his beliefs. That would be prejudiced and bigoted.

Masternslave07 -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 7:21:46 PM)
You can deny it all you want, but this country was founded on Judeo-Christian priciples. Religion is referenced in our Declaration Of Independence, God is on our currency. And most people in this country are Christian. So many mistake freedom of religion with freedom from religion. We all know how well that worked in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union don't we?

lazarus1983 -> RE: government beliefs? (12/15/2007 7:40:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Masternslave07 You can deny it all you want, but this country was founded on Judeo-Christian priciples. Religion is referenced in our Declaration Of Independence, God is on our currency. And most people in this country are Christian. So many mistake freedom of religion with freedom from religion. We all know how well that worked in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union don't we? That doesn't mean we can't better ourselves and loosen the shackles of religion. It's funny that you mention Nazi Germany, yet you forget to bring up how the Catholic Church collaborated with Mussolini to retain power. Don't forget all the great scientific minds that were killed because they defied Judeo-Christian principles. Or how about all those that died in the Inquisition, in the Witch Trials, or the Crusades, or the abortion doctors, or simply so "God will know his own." Yep, those wonderful Judeo-Christian principles. And back on topic, here's a quote to think on: "It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics."

OrionTheWolf -> RE: government beliefs? (12/16/2007 7:33:34 AM)
Upon those principles yes. Those principles that also aligned with Deist thought. Do you know what deism is? Ever heard the idea that something intelligent created this place, set a few things in motion, and then just let it go? Would you like me to track some of those Judea-Christian principles back before Christ, and then we can just call them Judea principles? Maybe track some of that reward or punishment after death because of a big tally sheet, right back to Babylon and we can call them Babylonian principles? Western principles and moralities, have all been influenced by Judea-Christian beliefs. Many of those principles and moralities are good, but it is when people twist them that they become bad. This is what our founding fathers were worried about, some religious zealot with a huge following getting control of the government and/or a single state sponsored religion. Both of those things work against the people. quote: ORIGINAL: Masternslave07 You can deny it all you want, but this country was founded on Judeo-Christian priciples. Religion is referenced in our Declaration Of Independence, God is on our currency. And most people in this country are Christian. So many mistake freedom of religion with freedom from religion. We all know how well that worked in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union don't we?

Owner59 -> RE: government beliefs? (12/16/2007 8:59:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Masternslave07 You can deny it all you want, but this country was founded on Judeo-Christian priciples. Religion is referenced in our Declaration Of Independence, God is on our currency. And most people in this country are Christian. So many mistake freedom of religion with freedom from religion. We all know how well that worked in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union don't we? Oh my.Where to start? What was wrong and evil about the Soviets and nazis, was government(and gov.power,the power of one man over another) getting involved in religious matters.Sticking their noses into things that weren`t their domain. Government has enough power over us,not to let the power(the political power) of religion be added to that.Once you have state powers and church powers joined,THAT`S when things go wrong.They should be made ,and kept separate. founded on Judeo-Christian priciples. I hear this from the ~right~,all the time. What does that mean,..."founded on",?How do you figure it means that we are a "Christian nation"? Religion is referenced in our Declaration Of Independence, Not true,the "Creator",doesn`t reference Jesus or Moses,as you claim. God is on our currency. The founding fathers didn`t do that. That did happen until the mid 50s,when the supper patriots(lol) kinda made that a loyalty oath of sorts,in their fight against the "godless commies".The founders didn`t do that,and for good reason.Most of the things they said,apposed a connection or link.There`s nothing,that calls this a Christian nation.If fact,most people were leaving Europe,~ because~ of "state religion",not to form it here. And most people in this country are Christian. While technically true,most people aren`t religious. Like myself ,for example.Because I was baptized,I`m counted as one of those Christian soldiers ,that you claim makes up the majority of Americans.So, the raw numbers don`t support your position,because so many of those people aren`t religious.And as time goes on,people are getting less and less religious. I don`t put myself in your camp.I`m not with you or your stupid bean counting BS,or what you think that all means,or your arrogance.Don`t count me in with you.I don`t want anything to do with self righteous ,religious busy-bodies,and their selfish mindset.Or, the weird conclusions they come up with. I don`t want you thinking about my religion or spirituality.I don`t want you minding my business or pushing your set of beliefs on me,any more than you want me pushing mine on you.Don`t con`t me in with you and your Christian majority. And there is the religious left,as well,that while fearing Jesus,totally rejects your views on state religion or mixing the two. And not for nothing,there`s no shortage of bible verses, directing people away from mixing god and state power together.Not because the church would harm government,but b/c government would hurt and diminish the church, and spirituality.

TheHeretic -> RE: government beliefs? (12/16/2007 9:13:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Governments and their religous views ; Should religion and religous beliefs be kept out of politics, government etc ? Should a leader be allowed to justify their actions by quoting reference to a personal religous or spiritual belief ? Would it be better for all if religion became a personal belief and not that of a country? It's going to depend on how one defines "religion," Aneirin. If one defines it as this or that particular or peculiar little cult, with a little book of rules based on the taboos of this or that little culture, then no, it has no place in the government of a free society. On the other hand, if we define religion as any set of beliefs and values about how and why the universe works the way it does, then your question becomes meaningless. Atheism and Humanism, Progressive Thought, all become just as much "religions" as Christianity, Buddhism or Zenlutherwiccanism. It's strictly a question of how much of any one the government embraces. The right of people to elect representation with common values shall not be infringed.

NorthernGent -> RE: government beliefs? (12/16/2007 10:03:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: Thankfully, this is the case in England. It's not? I thought the Church of England was supported with public funds. People bitch about the religious fanatics in this country, but they forget that we are one of the few Western societies that does not support religions with public funds. There is a seperation of church and state here. Seperation does not mean that public officials are barred from having beliefs and discussing them. It's not. As per the question I responded to, "religion is not the belief of this country". Put it this way, Tony Blair was considering stating to the people that god is on his side with regard to Iraq; his spin machine quite rightly informed him that it would be political suicide for him and his party: consequently, he decided against it. The Church is being propped up by African immigrants, here; most people in this country think organised religion belongs in the age of magic. You may have something written down on paper, but in practice, no vaguely serious, aspiring English leader would invoke the support of a non specific deity in this country: he/she would be laughed out of court.

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