Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes

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hejira92 -> Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:21:16 AM)
I wrote in another thread about my parents having an open marriage and being "out"- they were written up in books about it, appeared on academic panels, were invited onto Donahue (turned him down), etc. They had myriad lovers, many known to me as life-long famly friends, but their relationship became stronger from it and they were happily married until my Father's death- almost 50 years. My upbringing affected me in weird ways. One that is prominant is that I do not have the circuitry for jealousy. On basic level I cannot understand wanting someone who prefers someone else. Let them go- they can't be healthy for you. When my ex admitted his affair, my initial response was to think maybe he'd have a good learning experience and lose some of his judgmental prudishness, ie; that it was a positive thing. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else here had an upbringing that deviated from the conventional mores or norms in some way and has it affected you as an adult and in BDSM? *one interesting side note: my elder brother reacted to our liberal upbringing by becoming an ultra-orthodox jew. He wears a beard, a black hat and sleeps with his wife only on proscribed days. His son married after meeting the girl four times. Not much freedom of expression in THAT lifestyle!

ShiftedJewel -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:39:27 AM)
opps

ghitaPVH -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:45:11 AM)
I grew up on the opposite side. Raised by a minister, never saw my parents even once show any physical signs of affection towards each other except maybe very rarely a hug. The went to sleep at different times, Im flat out convinced my parents have never had sex (I was adopted, yes I can say that with fairly good certainty). No, I dont think that just because I dont want to think about my parents having sex. I wish they would. I actually feel kind of sorry for my mother. I do know they have a good marriage, and care ofr one another, its just not..physical in anyway. Its still hard for me, even after being married for 5 years and having three UMs so I know my parents have figured it out by now that my husband and I have had sex, its still hard to even hold myhusbands hand in front of my family. Its something that just never happened groing up so I dont know how to show anyone any affection in front of them.

Rover -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:47:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 My upbringing affected me in weird ways. One that is prominant is that I do not have the circuitry for jealousy. On basic level I cannot understand wanting someone who prefers someone else. It may be nitpicking, but I come from a long line of nitpickers. My ancestors were First Nitpickers to some Bavarian King, so bear with me. You may very well not have a jealous bone in your body, but what you describe here isn't a lack of jealousy, it's a lack of envy (ie: coveting what another has... in this case the affections of a certain someone). I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. John

EvilGenie -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:52:06 AM)
John you always make me chuckle, thanks!

DesFIP -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:53:54 AM)
Proscribed means forbidden, prescribed means ordered. Neither are appropriate. He does not sleep with his wife on proscribed days, during her period. They do go at it like newlyweds once she's been to the mikva. That's common to the Orthodox and one of the things that holds those marriages together. Either could sue for divorce but rates of divorce among them is much lower than in society at large. And from what I read, a large reason they do stay together is that the sex is so good. His son had the freedom to refuse to marry as did his wife. Judaism prohibits forcing a woman to marry, it's part of the law. He chose to accept an arranged marriage just as your brother chose to seek a lifestyle more structured and orderly than the more chaotic one he was raised in. My parents were nonreligious Jews and each had affairs. They also argued all the time and were much better friends five years after the divorce than they ever had been during the marriage. I sought out a more structured, monogamous relationship because my parents didn't focus on their offspring and my needs weren't met then. Probably because all their other activities took their time and attention away from the home. That lifestyle worked after we were grown and on our own, it didn't work while we were young and dependent. I sought out someone who also focuses on his offspring and his partner.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 9:01:11 AM)
I was raised by a very strong matriarchy, surrounded by women who were all very strong survivors, loving in that southern sisterhood type way. Otherwise, it was all generally quite normal in that fucked up but still loved sort of way most families are.

hejira92 -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 9:04:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 My upbringing affected me in weird ways. One that is prominant is that I do not have the circuitry for jealousy. On basic level I cannot understand wanting someone who prefers someone else. It may be nitpicking, but I come from a long line of nitpickers. My ancestors were First Nitpickers to some Bavarian King, so bear with me. You may very well not have a jealous bone in your body, but what you describe here isn't a lack of jealousy, it's a lack of envy (ie: coveting what another has... in this case the affections of a certain someone). I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. John Yes, a lack of envy may be involved, but it is a lack of jealousy, also. I used to tell my ex (vanilla) husband when he left for business trips that there were two rules- 1. wear a condom and 2. tell me all the details when he got home. He (the prude) never took me up on it (until the previously mentioned affair- wherein he didn't use a condom and didn't tell me). The comment I made about not wanting someone who wanted someone else was referring to these women who fight over men. Why stay with someone who lies and cheats? And cheating is about trust- not sex. And the ones who get upset when their man looks- hey, men look. That's what they do. I also make the distinction between casual sex and emotional connection. I think looking to have your emotional needs fulfilled outside your primary relationship is MUCH more serious than getting laid. The latter is solely a physical act and has nothing to do with committment. That said, I do not fool around- Master makes the rules and He does not share His toys. I have no philosophical objection to it, though. And I am looking forward one day in the future to watching Him dominate and f*ck another woman. ([;)] fun, fun, fun).

hejira92 -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 9:12:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Proscribed means forbidden, prescribed means ordered. Neither are appropriate. He does not sleep with his wife on proscribed days, during her period. They do go at it like newlyweds once she's been to the mikva. That's common to the Orthodox and one of the things that holds those marriages together. Either could sue for divorce but rates of divorce among them is much lower than in society at large. And from what I read, a large reason they do stay together is that the sex is so good. His son had the freedom to refuse to marry as did his wife. Judaism prohibits forcing a woman to marry, it's part of the law. He chose to accept an arranged marriage just as your brother chose to seek a lifestyle more structured and orderly than the more chaotic one he was raised in. My parents were nonreligious Jews and each had affairs. They also argued all the time and were much better friends five years after the divorce than they ever had been during the marriage. I sought out a more structured, monogamous relationship because my parents didn't focus on their offspring and my needs weren't met then. Probably because all their other activities took their time and attention away from the home. That lifestyle worked after we were grown and on our own, it didn't work while we were young and dependent. I sought out someone who also focuses on his offspring and his partner. My nephew chose his wife- it was not arranged. His teacher recommended he should meet her. He was 22, she 19. It was the first time either had dated. They met in a hotel lobby 3 times and the fourth date was the parents meeting to arrange the engagment. They live in Jeruselum now and are very happy. I do not denigrate my brother's lifestyle. I simply find it way too restrictive for me. The rules and restrictions are incomprehensible and, to me, often hypocritical. I am sorry if comments offended you. I obviously hit a nerve.

DomMeinCT -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 9:53:42 AM)
It's interesting because, to your brother, your life as owned property might appear equally restrictive.

hejira92 -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 10:00:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT It's interesting because, to your brother, your life as owned property might appear equally restrictive. On one hand, true- if he knew. On the other hand he would understand the comfort in having the big decisions made for you. That is what his religion does for him. I am sorry this thread has taken off towards my brother. I just mentioned him as an example of the same upbringing leading to a very different path and attitudes.

batshalom -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 1:38:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else here had an upbringing that deviated from the conventional mores or norms in some way and has it affected you as an adult and in BDSM? Yep. My parents were swingers, which might be why I don't "get" jealousy either, and it might be why I am so wired for poly. I enjoyed having extra people around, kind of communal living. I don't think their choice of lifestyle is why I am submissive though - being submissive is simply in my wiring.

AquaticSub -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 3:22:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 Not much freedom of expression in THAT lifestyle! I find this comment very odd. They are expressing themselves. They are living how they want to live. Is that not one of the ultimate forms of self-expression?

thetammyjo -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 3:32:49 PM)
Opposite experience in that on the surface my family looked very conservative and conventional. If you actually looked at it though it was my mother who ran everything. That however, was not because she was female but simply because of her. Sadly her methods were unhealthy for all of us. if anything I learned how to avoid be unethical and still be dominant by her example.

deeddlit -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 4:36:14 PM)
My parents are poly ,they were not open about it though...It was not till I came out to them that they came out to me and yes, my sister and I both just went "DUH!". Unfortunely they have never found an honest to goodness third that did not eventually try to convince my dad to leave my mom. :( In some of these cases, these women bided their time for YEARS. How sad!! Thankfully in all cases my father remained true and explained to them AGAIN that he would not leave my mother...period. My parents remain optimistic and will continue to hold true to the feeling that "she" is out there. I truely hope they find her someday. I am second generation poly because it is in my nature but as a result of my parents relationship history it takes a LOT of time for me to become comfortable with women. :( My father is a very dominant personality (formal BDSM Dom...no) and I got that from him. As a matter of fact, when my father is not around, it is me that my mother refers to to make decisions and what not. She takes a dominant role when she has to, but dislikes it very much, so if my dad and/or I are around then she will naturally fall into a submissive role. My sister is naturally poly as well and very submissive. We are all considered the black sheep in the family and my sister-in-law (the coolest ever) gets to live in a perpetual state of Christmas bliss as she always gets to trump anyone who thinks they have the juiciest gossip because of us FREAKS!! :) Deeddlit

flower2007 -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 7:44:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 Not much freedom of expression in THAT lifestyle! I find this comment very odd. They are expressing themselves. They are living how they want to live. Is that not one of the ultimate forms of self-expression? Something struck me as odd about that comment as well, but I couldn't figure it out until I read this. I totally agree!

hejira92 -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:04:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flower2007 quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 Not much freedom of expression in THAT lifestyle! I find this comment very odd. They are expressing themselves. They are living how they want to live. Is that not one of the ultimate forms of self-expression? Something struck me as odd about that comment as well, but I couldn't figure it out until I read this. I totally agree! It is a form of self-expression if you express yourself exactly as the rest of your community does. The rules dictate how you will interact with everyone else, what you will wear, whom you can touch, and with whom you may speak. You can and will be ostracized for deviance. Women may not pray publicly in the same room as men and a woman may not sing in a man's presence. It may be comfortable for some, but if you don't fit in- in any way, there is no place for you. I would call that limited freedom of expression.

AquaticSub -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:14:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 It is a form of self-expression if you express yourself exactly as the rest of your community does. The rules dictate how you will interact with everyone else, what you will wear, whom you can touch, and with whom you may speak. You can and will be ostracized for deviance. Women may not pray publicly in the same room as men and a woman may not sing in a man's presence. It may be comfortable for some, but if you don't fit in- in any way, there is no place for you. I would call that limited freedom of expression. I really don't think you see it. They are choosing to do this. They are expressing themselves Some submissives/slaves express themselves by being in relationships where they may not speak until spoken to, may not eat until told, may not use the restroom without permission, may not choose their own clothing or even what from the clothing they are given they may wear. Some must serve all men or all women. Some may not use the word "I" and must only speak in third person. To use your words "It may be comfortable for some, but if you don't fit in - in any way, there is no place for you". And by the way, as I attend orthodox Jewish service most Saturdays I would say that you may not know exactly what you are talking about when you say there is no personal expression. Women do pray in the same room as men, they are simply divided by a small glass wall. That doesn't prevent the women from interacting with the rabbi, and sometimes a man will speak to his wife over the wall. Some women choose to wear wigs once married, some simply pin a lace doily on their head and others don't bother at all. Women do sing in a man's presence, I've heard it. Nobody does exactly the same thing or dress the same way. Some groups are very strict, others aren't. Either way, it's their choice and they are choosing to express themselves like that. No differently that a slave who chooses to express her in a relationship where she is mirco-managed. Quite frankly I see a great deal in common with high protocol BDSM groups.

spanklette -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:30:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hejira92 quote: ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT It's interesting because, to your brother, your life as owned property might appear equally restrictive. On one hand, true- if he knew. On the other hand he would understand the comfort in having the big decisions made for you. That is what his religion does for him. I am sorry this thread has taken off towards my brother. I just mentioned him as an example of the same upbringing leading to a very different path and attitudes. It seems strange to me that you wouldn't be open with your brother about the nature of your relationship. I guess it's because your parents were open about their alternative relatio.nship As for me, I was brought up in a very conservative household...Southern Baptist. My parents were conservative in public and I really have no idea what their proclivities were in private. I don't think I can see any commonalities between the way I was raised and the path I followed...I can see where I was raised opening my mind at an earlier age about alternative attitudes about sexuality. New Orleans can be an eye opening place! Really, I think my submissiveness would have manifested itself regardless of how or where I was raised.

hejira92 -> RE: Alternative upbringing and adult attitudes (12/15/2007 8:45:22 PM)
I attend a conservative Schul and have been to many Orthodox services. Most of my cousins are Orthodox. What I am talking about here is the ultra-Orthodox community my brother is in. The differences between the two are huge. I am a singer. My brother, in his earlier, secular incarnation, was my biggest fan. After the shabbat dinner for my nephew's Bar Mitzvah (10 years ago), the group was taking turns singing songs. I didn't realize it was only the men. My non-jewish bro-in-law asked me to sing some harmony to a song he wanted to share. I did. The room stopped, I was escorted out and my brother preceeded to give me a lecture on decorum. If I had stood on a table and removed my clothes, I would have offended his guests less. BTW, his guests were all family- 2nd and third cousins who are also ultra-Orthodox. The summer before last, we were in Jeruselum visiting. Again, shabbat dinner. This time only family- my mom, my sister, my brother and his wife and his son. The men were singing after dinner. My mother wanted to hear Yedid Nefesh, but my brother didn't remember how it went. Of course, my mom asked me to start it. My brother objected, but graciously offered to have me whisper it in his ear so he could sing it. I politely declined. I was told I was being petulant. In his community- married women MUST wear wigs- no choice there- it is de facto. Not all Orthodoxy is the same.

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