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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 4:26:36 PM

Pavel

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A well informed soldier is a good soldier. Need to know exists to protect secrets, and to ensure OPSEC.

What you seem to be suggesting is people only need to know enough to agree with you. The Orwell center of my brain is a bit concerned by that.

Learn all you can. Investigate all approaches. Come to a reasoned conclusion. If anything the ignoring the lessons from your yestermillienium implies more a failure to continue to ask questions, and to educate oneself.

I've learned enough about Ron Paul to discourage me from considering him. I might be convinced otherwise, but I'm pretty far into Ron Paul counterrevolution land now.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 4:27:56 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavel

Either way, I'd rather be alive and wrong than dead and ethical.

Highly viable choice.

quote:

I would suggest you live in an enviroment in which you don't have to actually make that choice, and that your ethical choices will by and large merely cause people to be upset with you on the bad side of things.

My choices have only rarely directly decided on more than 3 lives or deaths at a time, true.

quote:

But then again, what do I know? Apparently I don't understand anything.

Very dramatic extrapolation. I basically said I think your take on ethics needs to ferment a bit, not that you are Forrest Gump. Do not make the inference. If I felt your post was nothing more than a load of inane drivel, I would have said just that, or not replied at all. That I chose to respond as I did means one single thing: I disagree with you, think my reasons for doing so are sound, lack the time to explain them in full, but figure that you probably don't need me to do so in order to piece together what I mean.

Did this clarification help any?

quote:

By the way, how'd that isolationism go for us in 1810, 1917, and 1941 anyways?

Bit of a different situation.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 4:35:01 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavel

A well informed soldier is a good soldier.

That would depend entirely on circumstances, and- even more so- on your definition of "good" soldier.

quote:

What you seem to be suggesting is people only need to know enough to agree with you.

Absolutely not. I merely observe that people now, as always, take what they need.

quote:

The Orwell center of my brain is a bit concerned by that.

I think your neurologist would be troubled to find a new centre of unknown functionality in your brain.

quote:

Learn all you can. Investigate all approaches. Come to a reasoned conclusion. If anything the ignoring the lessons from your yestermillienium implies more a failure to continue to ask questions, and to educate oneself.

I agree; I just don't agree that it's the right approach for everyone, or even always useful.

I take it you know the difference between an exact model and a working model in the sciences, right?

quote:

I've learned enough about Ron Paul to discourage me from considering him. I might be convinced otherwise, but I'm pretty far into Ron Paul counterrevolution land now.

I don't even live in the US, but another NATO country. My main interest in Ron Paul is that it would make my life as a world citizen simpler if the US would drop the War For Terrorism, and not perform too many international ops.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 9:08:25 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavel

Either way, I'd rather be alive and wrong than dead and ethical.

I would suggest you live in an enviroment in which you don't have to actually make that choice, and that your ethical choices will by and large merely cause people to be upset with you on the bad side of things.

But then again, what do I know? Apparently I don't understand anything.

By the way, how'd that isolationism go for us in 1810, 1917, and 1941 anyways?

I didn't realise that we were isolationist in 1810, 1917 or 1941.
Funny, in all the history classes that I've taken they never mentioned that the U.S. was isolationist during those time periods or, that it was govt. policy to be isolationist.
And, to answer your question it went very well for us! lol

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 11:38:14 PM

BraceletMe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavel

Please excuse me, I don't do forums, and I don't feel like fighting with the quote function.

"Ron Paul speaks truth to power. He is for you. He is for me. He is not for big government. He is not for big corporations. What else do any of us need to know?" As stated by BraceletMe.

That's the exact kind of crap that scares the hell out of me. What does that even mean? It's like saying he's pro-Kansas. All canidates are pro-people, anti-big government, not for big corporations, the only thing that varies is how much of a lie that statement is.

More importantly, any time you end a statement with "What else do any of us need to know?" and it's not pertaining to that puppies are cute, and Nascar sucks, you have failed. Learn everything you can. Then learn more. Then question what you learned prior. You may never get the whole story, but things run deeper than names on blimps, and online polls.

I tried to keep my statement somewhat short and bring it down to its very core.

I'd like you to name one other candidate who REALLY is for the people and not for big government and big corporations instead. If you haven't figured out Ron Paul isn't in the same category as the rest in this regard, you don't have even the slightest, not even the slightest inkling of who this man is. So, that's why I said "that's all we need to know."

The above said, I agree with you in learning more and more, while questioning at the same time. And I can tell you, I have been doing a lot of that throughout 2007. So, when I speak in very high praise about Ron Paul, I don't do it lightly, not at all.

It wasn't my intention to go into endless detail about him, though. There is so much that could be (and needs to be) said I could be here writing all day long. Any readers out there can explore for themselves if interested. For those interested, I'd advise them to Google Ron Paul and read maybe the first three pages under News for Ron Paul on a daily basis. One thing or link needs to another and the picture becomes clear after a short time for anyone really wanting to look.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 11:57:23 PM

Pavel

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In reverse order:

1810 we tried to play the neutrality card, in effect, free trade with everyone, no governmental involvement. The end result was we got walked all over by both the British, and the French, eventually ending in the War of 1812. Isolation didn't keep us safe then.

1917, after years of proclaiming non-involvement in the First World War, American citizens and property remained targeted by the German military. Our isolationist stance eventually collapsed after the American people had enough of its citizens drowning in the Atlantic (a simplification, but one that suits how much I care to explain our involvement in the First World War).

1941, American isolationism leaves Europe ground under the boot of Nazi domination, much of Asia in a state of terror. We find American servicemen and citizens killed despite our collective attempts to remain uninvolved.

I'm sure it went well for people were far enough out of the danger areas though. I do weep for your history education though, apparently it was lacking, which isn't surprising given either the nationalistic jingoism in some classes, or apologist crap in others.

I've worked with soldiers in my career. It's the ones with a clue that can be trusted to actually do their jobs without their hands being held. The idea that a good soldier is one you wind up, fill full of lies, and drop on the enemy is one left best at hollywood.

We all take what we need. I'm saying we need to take more to make an informed choice than Ron Paul is here to save us all from the terrible secret of space. We need more than simply knowing he's a swell guy for you and me.

My brain is full of interesting little quirks. As the case is, I'm fond of George Orwell.

Ignorance is strength! Only the upper class and the pickers and choosers need to know what's happening, the rest of you concern yourself with the Blimp! Obey the Ron Paul blimp, and it will lead you to joy!

If you're going to be charged with making a choice on who's the best person for the job, shouldn't you learn as much as you can? If you don't, then really, what's the point? Perhaps I should vote for the man with the best suit, or who mentions Jesus the most in his speeches.

I, at least happen to be sick of people making half assed choices because they can't be bothered to stop watching American Idol to find out truths for themselves.

Ah, so you're okay with us leaving NATO. That's fine. War for Terror is a cute name too, it speaks volumes about the maturity of your assesment. Clearly the American Government is out to kill babies and to squeeze the weak of the world into oil.

Ron Paul is just a Huey Long or Charles Coughlin for our time. The more I learn, the less I like the man.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/24/2007 11:59:45 PM

Pavel

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I already said I'm voting for Robot Jesus. I'm sick of voting for crap, and Ron Paul is just an alternate form of crap to me.

At the very least I'm sick of Ron Paul supporters telling me how he walks on water. I'm still waiting for him to return the stormfront.com money. Really, with 5.4 million in one day, does he really need the 500$ from them?

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/25/2007 10:28:30 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavel

I've worked with soldiers in my career. It's the ones with a clue that can be trusted to actually do their jobs without their hands being held. The idea that a good soldier is one you wind up, fill full of lies, and drop on the enemy is one left best at hollywood.

Clearly. But does he need to possess the sum total of human knowledge to operate at peak efficiency?

quote:

We all take what we need. I'm saying we need to take more to make an informed choice than Ron Paul is here to save us all from the terrible secret of space. We need more than simply knowing he's a swell guy for you and me.

Again, clearly so. Yet, an informed choice is not what everyone wants to make. They take what they need.

quote:

My brain is full of interesting little quirks.

Yours is not the only one.

quote:

As the case is, I'm fond of George Orwell.

He had some interesting books, although most of the ideas are readily apparent without the books.

quote:

Ignorance is strength!

In some cases, yes. It is positively correlated with work performance for police officers, for instance.

quote:

Only the upper class and the pickers and choosers need to know what's happening, the rest of you concern yourself with the Blimp!

No, only the people who want to make informed decisions need to know.

quote:

If you're going to be charged with making a choice on who's the best person for the job, shouldn't you learn as much as you can?

In theory, yes. In practice, that will not happen. Thus, it's reasonable for the politicians to sell the idea that they are the best choice, provided they believe themselves to be the best choice.

quote:

If you don't, then really, what's the point?

Don't ask me. I never said the inmates should run the asylum. Democracy is not the best form of government, it's just the only form of government that is currently viable for most nations in the west.

quote:

Perhaps I should vote for the man with the best suit, or who mentions Jesus the most in his speeches.

If that floats your boat, go right on ahead.

quote:

I, at least happen to be sick of people making half assed choices because they can't be bothered to stop watching American Idol to find out truths for themselves.

Each thing in its place, according to its nature. I'm sick of people making decisions for others about how they should live their lives, even when I share the same aesthetic with regard to how life should ideally be lived. Which I'm not saying that I do, as we do not know each other well enough to know that, but we seem to share the notion that being informed and reflecting on a choice is the ideal. The divergence is in saying others are free to pick their aesthetic.

quote:

Ah, so you're okay with us leaving NATO.

I'd prefer for the US to stay in NATO, but other concerns may be more pressing.

quote:

War for Terror is a cute name too, it speaks volumes about the maturity of your assesment.

I should hope so. In case you haven't noticed, there is a mutual symbiosis at work here, and the efforts that are called the War on Terror have done little more than support the novel growth of global terrorism and ensure the success of the terrorists (in the sense of causing fear and excessive expenditure). There are solid analyses of this to be found out there, so I will not be repeating those arguments here; an academic forum is a more apt space for it.

quote:

Clearly the American Government is out to kill babies and to squeeze the weak of the world into oil.

Err... no... I never said any such thing.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/26/2007 12:29:58 PM

popeye1250

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Pavel, one thing you need to understand is that all countries want to involve "US", the U.S. in (their) wars.
Either for our Troops or more often for the perceived monetary "rewards" that they think they'll get.
Or for immigration or a host of other "benefits" they think they'll get from us.
That's why I'm totally against "rebuilding" foreign countries or these corrupt "foreign aid" programs that the Lobbyists on "K" street make obscene amounts of money from by "representing" foreign countries.
As a U.S. Taxpayer, I simply no longer want to have to pay for that stuff.
And if you like Hillary Clinton just come out and say so.
We won't make fun of you.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/26/2007 12:35:08 PM >

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/27/2007 10:15:03 AM

Aswad

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We won't?

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/27/2007 4:31:32 PM

Pavel

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I think I've been pretty clear that I'm a Robot Jesus man. If you want a poltical leaning, I've really given up trying to stick myself into one boot or the other. The closest I've gotten to a party/area that most lines up with my beliefs is the left wing of the republican party.

I do hate how both parties have gotten very deep into moral issues, rather than issues of the state. I have no clue why it matters who marries who, or what I watch on TV, I'd really rather see coherent educated policy.

Which returns to my continued comments on the importance of education. I happen to hold education as the highest pursuit someone can have in life. I do recognize that one cannot know everything. However, if you're going to support a man for control of one of the most powerful nations in the world, I believe you should know more than just gut feelings and sound bites.

As the case is I believe I've learned enough about all the major canidates, and all of the more vocal minor folks to know that none of them are people I would pick willingly to lead my country. Unless something dramatic happens, I'm either entering Robot Jesus, or I'm doing what I did in 2004, and picking what I viewed as the lesser of two evils. And I'll feel just as dead on the inside when I cast that vote.

I support a strong and involved foreign policy, because we no longer live in a world that can end at the ocean's edge, or where Canada and Mexico begin. We can try to disengage from the world, but I assure you, the world is too close, and too connected to work in a way Ron Paul believes is possible. There is much wrong with our international relations. There's also lots and lots wrong with very nearly everything our government is involved in. It's still to support an isolationist stance just because you're sick of paying for it. I for one, am sick of paying for farming subsidies, welfare, and social security. However I do not seek for those things to be removed as I know they serve some good to some people, and there's more to them than just the waste.

That of course, addresses the meat of what I've been trying to say all along. In short, I do not support Ron Paul, I do not believe he's a viable, let alone good choice to lead this country, and I think it's important to learn more about all canidates, rather than supporting the ones with PR machines, grassroots or no.

As to the rest, I'll make it quick, as I've got things to get to tonight. A number greater than three people depend on my ethical judgement. I believe calling it a War For Terror cheapens the debate to jingoism, just as calling it a War on Terror does the same from the other way. We live in a world way too populated with slogans and little intelligent conversations.

Ignorance remains an enemy. I'm really curious to how you got the information that police officers perform better when ignorant. If you can actually show me the source for that, I'll be more inclined to debate the issue. However, if that is the case, I have to wonder why most of the police officers I've known are so over-educated then.

I would like an answer on the stormfront.org (correction to the .com, the last time I was there was for a research project back in college, my desire to view it again is limited) money though. As far as I know, as little as I support Clinton, she has yet to take money from Neo-Nazis. Chinese businessmen, maybe, but I happen to find nazis more questionable. If Ron Paul has gotten millions of dollars, surely he can turn down five hundred from white nationalists on princple.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/27/2007 5:31:15 PM

Aswad

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You would have to ask the researchers behind the Big 5 project and such; they make mention of the positive correlation between being close-minded and good job performance in law enforcement and related fields. The data I have to support this would have to be considered anecdotal, as they derive from direct experience with law enforcement and the military, and are thus not documented in any peer-reviewed journals.

As for the rest, it's been entertaining, but I'm bowing out of this. You're not listening, and not trying to connect the dots.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/27/2007 6:15:43 PM

Pavel

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It's a two way street. I feel like you're busy trying to draw a lion using the Mona Lisa paint by numbers.

It's been my experince that the lower levels of law enforcement and the military are less creative/more close minded because that's as far as they can progress within that organization, as is true with most all bodies of people. That, at the least has been my exposure.

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RE: Ron Paul raises $5.4 M in one day! - 12/27/2007 6:30:44 PM

Aswad

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Not so much paint-by-numbers; more like motion capture...
The dots are only recognizable when you move them about in your head.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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