RE: Shutting down when chastised

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DesFIP -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 11:37:17 AM)
It also works if you can recognize your own bad mood and ask for a hug. Just something simple like "I need to be held". But being punished for needing to be loved isn't the best answer.

adoracat -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 1:22:11 PM)
~fast reply~ i've reacted like that to chastisement, too. when it felt to me that he's come down on me like a roaring freight train and shut down really hard....and he sees how i reacted to his words and tried to figure out why i did. 3/4ths of the time that happens to us, i'm in a bad headspace and havent realized it till i react to him. the other 1/4th of the time, he HAS over-jumped me because of stuff going on with him, and he apologises. communication is everything... kitten, who doesnt feel like communicating

ownedgirlie -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 1:26:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LittleWench The thought process when I shut down is not "well you treated me like a naughty girl so I am going to sulk now", it is "this isn't what I am used to, I am wayyyyy out of my comfort zone, I don't know what to do now." Part of it is knowing that I have pushed his buttons hard enough that he has switched from firm to fatherly, so it's self disappointment that I am processing. My natural instinct is to argue back, so when I am told I am not to express that, I don't know what to do. Even if after that explanation it still appears that I am passively aggressively trying to control him, I certainly don't mean to be. I don't want to control him. I do prefer he use positive reinforcement for chastisement, but he doesn't always and I have to deal with that, I have to figure out how to make that work for us both... which is why I am here looking for advice. I used to go through something very similar. I can not change my Master's personality, and he does chastize me rather harshly when he is angry. It used to be very hard for me to deal with it, until I learned how to work my way through such a situation. It was always my nature to argue back, too, which always - and I mean 100% of the time without exception - made things worse. I have learned when he is upset, no amount of arguing or explaining is going to help. In short, I shut the hell up! It was harrrrd for me to learn this. But now I reply with things like, "Yes, Master" and "I understand, Master" - these are not contrived responses, they are my way of displaying that I am hearing him and I really do not know what else to say at the moment. Two things happen. Either he asks me what I am thinking, or, what do I have to say for myself....or he says his peace and ends the conversation. If asked what I am thinking, I ask if I may have some time to process my thoughts, as too many thoughts are spinning around in my head and I want to make sense of them before I unintentionally make things worse. So far, he has always granted this request. If he ends the conversation, I still go and gather my thoughts without further argument. And then, when I am of a calm mind and spirit (getting berated usually ignites adrenaline and worry in me), I can rationally explain where I was coming from and where I think things got off course, and I apologize for upsetting him. If I think he totally misunderstood me or was in the wrong about something, I might say, "I either did not communicate well, or what I said was not fully understood, and I can see where the miscommunication was frustrating" (or something of that ilk). I try to see his side of it while still expressing my own experience of what occurred. The real challenge for me was not to respond negatively to anything he was saying or doing. We never come out ahead when I argue back or withdraw, and we always come out ahead when ruffled feathers have been smoothed and we can calmly do a post-mortem about it.

LittleWench -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 2:58:24 PM)
aThank you everyone for the support and thoughtful responses... Wisteria.... big boy panties ROFL. I will try just taking a very deep breath and apologising. We have talked in depth once about this where I explained his light handed approach worked a lot better for me, and when he was angry I couldn't help but shut down. He does recognize his part in my behaviour, and that both of us have adjustments to make. Being vanilla turned D/s, it's new for both of us, learning to control the both of us is new for him (he has the maturity and wisdom to do it, simply a learning curve) just as I still am learning to obey. All your advice has helped me to know the steps I can take for my part. [:)]

laurell3 -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 5:02:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LittleWench Very recently my Sir chastised me for a smart arse comment I made. After that I shut down. I only responded when he spoke directly to me, and then I spoke politely and briefly. I was afraid to open my mouth, not out of fear of reprisal, but because I didn't think I would control my tongue and I would say something that upset him further. I had obeyed him by curtailing my attitude but he was then obviously unhappy because I had closed down so much. It wasn't a pout, I wasn't feeling petulant or wishing to punish him in return, I just didn't know what to do, didn't know how to process what I was feeling, so in the absence of knowing the right thing to do, I did nothing. How do you deal with being chastised? How do you incorporate that and then move onto the next moment without dwelling on it? To my mind, ideally, I should have listened, apologised and that should have been the end of it, the both of us able to move on. But it didn't happen that way. Any tips for being able to take it in your stride? I do this but probably not for the same reasons. I don't do it at all in vanilla life and in fact cannot in my work life or I would be completely ineffective. My skin is a bit thicker than it used to be so I don't dwell on it outside of something bordering on abusive or something that is a repeated personal theme more akin to being insulting than critical or corrective. I don't do it for fear of what I might say either. I do it merely because in a relationship, unnecesary conflict adds up over time and repeated anger/agruing is destructive to the relationships I am in. Real anger is difficult for me to process emotionally because of how I was raised and for me personally I can come out ahead by avoiding arguments when one of us is angry. However, arguing or not being able to argue about relationship issues has never been a part of the d/s dynamic in my relationships nor will it ever be. The fact that I submit to someone does not give them wholesale license to be overly critical of me or direct what I can and cannot say about our relationship issues. However, in the case of me making a wiseass comment or something unintentionally hurtful, I would find a way to apologize and move on personally regardless of the dynamic.

Focus50 -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 5:24:08 PM)
As soon as I read your OP, it sounded to me like a simple lack of familiarity with each other - which your profile seems to support. Communication is a wonderful tool but not always utilised as often as it needs to be in r/l relationships - gotta be exponentially harder when you're on opposite sides of the globe! With long distance, it isn't all up to the submissive to tow the line, or suck it up or not dwell on matters etc. "Both* of you need to make the effort of actually getting to know the other. You're probably right; there's a lotta things you "should've" done etc. But him, too, rather than act like you're in the same room together and that you should always automatically know what's happening or expected. COMMUNICATION; COMMUNICATION; COMMUNICATION! Focus.

AEslaveM -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 6:51:20 PM)
"Normally my smart arse self is fine, he doesn't wish to curtail who I am, and that is part of me, its my sense of humour more than anything else. I was in a mood so it came out snottier than I wished, and he was in a mood so he received it poorly. It has, however, happened before. We butt heads, he tells me to stop, so I shut down, I stop everything. I don't respond well to being treated like a child. When he admonishes me with humour, yhe does it with no less determination than when he is angry, but with a calm, wry sense I am able to take his order and process it it, move on quickly, and I appreciate that tremendously. To me it shows patience. It's when he berates me as he would a child. I feel though, if I encourage him to chastise me in a manner that I respond well to that I am topping him. It is his right to chastise me in any manner he sees fit, I am just struggling with the negative reinforcement, as opposed to when he uses positive reinforcement. " "The thought process when I shut down is not "well you treated me like a naughty girl so I am going to sulk now", it is "this isn't what I am used to, I am wayyyyy out of my comfort zone, I don't know what to do now." Part of it is knowing that I have pushed his buttons hard enough that he has switched from firm to fatherly, so it's self disappointment that I am processing. My natural instinct is to argue back, so when I am told I am not to express that, I don't know what to do. Even if after that explanation it still appears that I am passively aggressively trying to control him, I certainly don't mean to be. I don't want to control him. I do prefer he use positive reinforcement for chastisement, but he doesn't always and I have to deal with that, I have to figure out how to make that work for us both... which is why I am here looking for advice." WOW.........I can sure relate to this.........as it happens to me, also.....I feel exactly the same way, but am learning how to "come out" of the "shut down" mode more quickly now. He calls me "too sensitive" but I think it is conditioning from life........and I am not sure how to go about talking to him about it in a calm and rational manner....

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 8:23:52 PM)
Your reaction seems fine and normal to me, as long as you had more talk about it later and didn't keep yourself stuck there. I am very confused by someone calling it a "mind fuck" and have to think they don't really understand the meaning of the term?

crouchingtigress -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 10:35:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom You are cognizant of when you shut down and why. You want him to admonish you only in a certain way. This, I am sorry to say, is a power struggle. You say it's not a pout but it seems, from your own words, that it is a pout exactly. You point out that when he chastises with humor you appreciate his patience and move on. When he's being serious, though, it hurts your feelings and you fight back in a passive manner. I'm not saying to suck it up if it bothers you so much that it will become a negative drag on your emotional, physical or mental health; I'm saying stop being passive aggressive, move along, and later (when everyone is in a good mood again) explain yourself to him. It won't end the mal behavior on either side but at least it's in the open, it's respectful, and you can let go of your need to control the way he chastises you. i wholeheartedly agree and ill take it a few steps deeper. dominance and submission are very intense feelings to explore, in fact it goes to our very survival as a species for a millions years.. when a dominant exerts power over a sub in a serious, non fun way, it is pretty scary, because it feels as though the self is dying. but its not, its only the ego dying and changing...something the ego (consiousness of the self) is terrified of, when it is not on its own terms. but you chose this man, so you must have some faith in his abilitys to call you on your shit, so just focus on that....and then focus on that some more. :)

ownedgirlie -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/18/2007 10:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress but its not, its only the ego dying and changing...something the ego (consiousness of the self) is terrified of, when it is not on its own terms. This was such an excellent way of putting that! GREAT pic, too, btw!

LittleWench -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 12:04:37 AM)
quote: when a dominant exerts power over a sub in a serious, non fun way, it is pretty scary, because it feels as though the self is dying. I read this and thought about it, and thought, and thought some more. I thought about the words I used in my post, and realized how inadequate the written word can be, or at least how inadequately I am using it in this situation. I thought about ego, and the changes my ego has undergone over the last several weeks. I thought about my role in our relationship, the role we have spent weeks discussing and negotiating. I am not a child. When he treats me as one, I shut down. It's not the seriousness of his tone, its not how scary it is, it is the fact that he is treating me as a child. If we had a Daddy/girl relationship I would agree, suck it up girl, thats the dynamic you asked for. But we don't and I didn't. As the Dominant he does have the assumed right to treat me however he wants to, however this goes outsides the bounds of our negotations. I would not have tolerated being treated like that when our relationship was vanilla, and we directly discussed Daddy/girl roles and we both agreed that wasn't what we were aiming for. Is that ego? Perhaps... I am more inclined to agree with Focus, its just unfamiliarity. We know each other well in a vanilla sense, I think our greatest unfamiliarity is adjusting to our new roles, I am not used to being his submissive/pet, he is not used to being my Dominant. An interesting side point, he didn't treat me as a child when we were vanilla, only now that he is taking the dominant role. I think he is trying on different shoes to see how they fit. And that's ok, I promised him patience. I promised I would wait while he found solid ground. I promised I would let him come to this in his own time, and I promised I would never expect perfection and that I would forgive his blunders, just as he promised he would forgive mine. That's why I am trying to figure out what I can do, he is going through the same process too. If he growled his disapproval at me, spoke to me as if I was a pet. "Bad girl! Sit Down! Outside!", that would have been fine. I don't cope well in the face of anger from anyone, its not fear of losing my ego, its fear of getting an unbridled smack to the face. Although he can't physically send me outside at present, he can send me away from the PC, he can tell me sit outside on the porch and ask via phone text for permission to re-enter the house. (Dear Gods I can't wait for all this visa stuff to get sorted so the distance isn't there growl). All of these are a blow to the ego, a hit to the pride, small doses of humiliation, none of these would make me shut down. This thread has been an amazing exercise for me, to be able to look at myself with a sharper clarity. Thank you to everyone for all your comments, every one of them helped.

Archer -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 6:11:31 AM)
Just as an ask yourself question. What was the example of dominance that "He" had that was the longest and most influencial? Likely it was a parent. Additionally what was your own most influencial and long lasting dominant example in life? Again likely it was a parent. So you have the whole parent thing potetially comming at you from both directons His parental influence in his developing his personality, and your own image of dominance being heavily colored by your parents. How much is actually parental in intent and how much is parental only in your perception may be another matter entirely. There may be a component of "you're gonna have to deal with this in your own head" The part that is your perspective that may be coloring anything that is direct blunt and to the point without a humorous under or overtone as parental in nature. Is it really all direct and blunt chastisement or is it actually more a specific tone in the voice, or something else entirely that has it "comming off sounding like a parent"? It's a great question, and looking at the issue is a huge step for many people.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 6:54:07 AM)
Aloha Little wench, i hope youll allow me to elaborate on what i said, because i think you may have misunderstood. when you talk of what way you will and will not tolerate for him to speak with you, you are talking classic power struggle. the place where D/s stops being fun and you realise what you have signed up for. its a rude if not terrifying reality, even if it is only for a brief second. in this wondrous moment you have three choices: become offended, outraged, hurt, confused, and try to change him or the situation to one that is more suitable to your liking....... or stuff those feelings of unworthiness, fear, objectification down and ignore them....or explore them, see why something that in some contexts is very sexy and erotic, can also be hurtful and somewhat depressing. to my mind, this is what we signed up for, when we choose submission, to be thrown out of our comfort zone, to be be faced with our selves. and to see where that takes us. i am really impressed with your desire to explore this here, you are really thinking about things, and really supporting both of you as you grow and evolve into your new roles. i loved what you said about how you promised patience, and understanding as he is allowed to find his own footing. you both are lucky to have found each other. what i was saying that i think might of been missed is that D/s offers such a unique opportunity to explore primal concepts of power, wired into our DNA, safely. that outside the body thing that happened could not have happened in that way if you had not had the opportunity to truly surrender to things beyond your control. you can look at it as shutting down and choose it as that, or you can chose to see it as opening up, and seeing something new, about yourself. and in many ways it is the most valuable lesson i have learned in D/s because plenty of things in this life are beyond our control, but to know that there is a place where you can go, beyond the ego, that is basically a place of hovering outside of your self looking in, can give you great peace though life.

DesFIP -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 7:28:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress when you talk of what way you will and will not tolerate for him to speak with you, you are talking classic power struggle. Unless of course she is setting healthy boundaries to protect herself from damage. quote: the place where D/s stops being fun and you realise what you have signed up for. its a rude if not terrifying reality, even if it is only for a brief second. Or you realize that what you were told you were signing up for isn't what's really there. No matter how much he tells her the onus is entirely on her to adapt, that's a lie. He needs to learn how best to treat her to get the response he wants. Because if he keeps repeating the same thing, and is shocked everytime he gets the same response, then the fault is his. I have to assume you don't have ums or animals. Because anyone who has raised either knows that what works for one will not work for another. You have to tailor the response to the person or animal before you. They are not a blank slate and ignoring who they are is a guaranteed way of finding yourself frustrated and angry, and alone.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 7:54:13 AM)
sorry you cant get into your profile celeste. yes i agree that the situation is differnt if it is a hard limit, but if youll notice they are growing and supporting eachother in thier dynamic as they both learn a new way of being. the question she asked in her post was : Any tips for being able to take it in your stride? and so thats where my thoughts went, which basically is: to use this as an opportinity for self awareness and growth. and to support him as he learns and grows too. i am an animal trainer and i do understand that differning approaches work with different animal personalitys, which is precisly why i said what i said. Most people dont go to the self exploration place when there is a problem, it is very out of the box for most.....Amid the chorus of "more communication" that we always hear and say on these boards i like to point out that self awarness, and personal growth is also tool to create more intimacy in any relationship.

LittleWench -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 2:30:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress when you talk of what way you will and will not tolerate for him to speak with you, you are talking classic power struggle. I would agree with you, but only in the full context of what I wrote. I would not have tolerated being treated like that when our relationship was vanilla, and we directly discussed Daddy/girl roles and we both agreed that wasn't what we were aiming for. I would not have tolerated being treated as a child while we were vanilla, and you are 100% spot on, then it was a power struggle between us. I haven't said, however, that I won't tolerate it now, I have said though that it is not part of our negotiated dynamic and that parental structure was not what we were aiming for and that at present I am really uncomfortable with it. That's ok, it has happened, and now I gotta figure out how to cope with it. The power struggle is no longer external, between the two of us, it is internal, within me. quote: ORIGINAL:DesFIP No matter how much he tells her the onus is entirely on her to adapt, that's a lie. He needs to learn how best to treat her to get the response he wants. Because if he keeps repeating the same thing, and is shocked everytime he gets the same response, then the fault is his. We are both fully committed to making this work. We spoke yesterday and he asked me to identify the area I thought he needed to work on the most. I said responding with anger. I reversed the question and asked him what area he thought I needed to work on the most. He said shutting down. We're both aware and we are both working hard to get to the right place for each other. I hate to think of it in terms of one of us being more responsible for making this work than the other, it's going to take both of us. It's an incredible experience, to watch him step into this role. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer There may be a component of "you're gonna have to deal with this in your own head" The part that is your perspective that may be coloring anything that is direct blunt and to the point without a humorous under or overtone as parental in nature. Is it really all direct and blunt chastisement or is it actually more a specific tone in the voice, or something else entirely that has it "comming off sounding like a parent"? Thank you Archer. I think it is both but in a slightly different manner to how you portrayed it. He does use a parental tone, that high on the mountain very condescending tone. Oooooohhh that gets to me!! A chastisement is a chastisement, it's the message I should be focussing on not the delivery, however I am allowing the parental tone to get at me in a negative way, I am perceiving it as an overtly bad thing for whatever reason and focussing on that rather than the message. As I mentioned earlier if he barked orders at me as if I were a dog I would accept that, so it's not the seriousness of the chastisement, its the tone and delivery. Thank you again, everyone, for your kindness and thoughtful insights.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 3:43:25 PM)
Too many people equate being dominant with just giving orders. I am sure this works for some people but it has never worked for me. Just like training a puppy, when they do good, you reward them with love and attention, when they do bad you either ignore it or a light whack on the nose. Adults do require and are capable of being trained in more nuanced ways. Imagine if instead of telling you that you are being a bad girl he had ASKED you to be a good girl for him? As in "is this really how you want to behave"? Empowering someone to do better is a far better course of actione. As Archer said, we take our styles of dominance in many ways from our parents. Which for me required relearning everything! Ugly parenting skills! I had to start over from scratch and relearn how to shape and guide someone. So, perhaps if you can talk and outline ways that would empower you and challenge you to rise to the occasion, you would.

DesFIP -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 4:09:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress Most people dont go to the self exploration place when there is a problem, it is very out of the box for most.....Amid the chorus of "more communication" that we always hear and say on these boards i like to point out that self awarness, and personal growth is also tool to create more intimacy in any relationship. Agreed, but sometimes as the relationship grows people will discover emotional triggers, hot buttons, which they didn't know were there before. And considering how many of us have this self same response, a need to cringe and not interact, this is a common emotional trigger. Responsible dominants do not hit emotional triggers which weaken the relationship. They find successful ways to accomplish the same thing instead of training the partner to wall themselves off farther.

laurell3 -> RE: Shutting down when chastised (12/19/2007 4:17:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress Most people dont go to the self exploration place when there is a problem, it is very out of the box for most.....Amid the chorus of "more communication" that we always hear and say on these boards i like to point out that self awarness, and personal growth is also tool to create more intimacy in any relationship. Agreed, but sometimes as the relationship grows people will discover emotional triggers, hot buttons, which they didn't know were there before. And considering how many of us have this self same response, a need to cringe and not interact, this is a common emotional trigger. Responsible dominants do not hit emotional triggers which weaken the relationship. They find successful ways to accomplish the same thing instead of training the partner to wall themselves off farther. Exactly. Leading means learning your audience/followers. Eliciting behavior means knowing what will positively elicit those behaviors. Shutting down and not being able to deal with it as opposed to being rude may mean punishment isn't appropriate, changing the approach is.

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