Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s?

Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (Full Version)

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Tigrita -> Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 1:11:26 PM)
Is obedience the cornerstone of D/s? I often think about my first ‘D/s’ relationship, in which neither of us were familiar with the lifestyle, labels, stereotypes, expectations, etc. I feel very much that it was a D/s relationship, in my heart I was submissive to him and there was certainly power exchange, yet it was very different from most of the relationships I read about here and the one I’m in now. The primary difference was that, even though there was a significant degree of what I now know by the label of ‘power exchange’, and I felt deeply submissive to him, there was no defined expectation of obedience. There were no commands really, no ‘obey or leave’, I was not afraid to question his judgment or refuse to do something he wanted. This seems to totally go against the world of BDSM I’ve come to know, but I still believe that relationship was still D/s. It was simply less of a power exchange. Just because it wasn’t so very dramatic and defined, doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. I did a lot of things for him that I wouldn’t have done for myself, things that challenged me, I put a lot of his desires and judgments ahead of mine. But there was no stigma attached to refusal. So, I’m curious as to whether anyone else has had relationships like this, where obedience is not a cornerstone, and if you still consider that D/s? Thoughts, comments?

Real0ne -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 1:15:41 PM)
pseudo power is the cornerstone imo

CuriousLord -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 1:16:56 PM)
At first, I'd be inclined to agree with your initial assessment, that this doesn't sound like D/s. Then again.. well, D/s isn't M/s. subs do have the right- if not the obligation- to chose what they'll obey and not obey. I'll admit, I've never really thought very much into it. I like M/s.. the slave is expected to do without even considering. D/s, though? A sub does have a choice. But, if she choses against it, and is punished for this.. is it really a free choice? If she isn't punished for not submitting, yet still does.. You know, in ways, the situation you've described sounds like a mature, healthy D/s relationship.

BitaTruble -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 1:22:47 PM)
Personally, I wouldn't. Obedience is, in fact, the only 'rule' that I ever have to remember. Refusal ends the D/s part of the relationship. I guess, without a consequence, I can't see refusal to obey as being D/s in nature unless the motivation to disobey was because of some unknown variable - I think it's Celeste (the other Celeste) who talks about being told to wear high heels on a day she had to go hiking. I find that to be a good example of a variable which motivated her to disobey. YMMV Celeste

Gardenista -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 2:07:42 PM)
Is obedience the cornerstone of my D/s dynamic? Well, yes. I submit to his authority, so sometimes that does mean following orders. Obeying. ;) But our relationship, right now, resembles your description of your 1st. My submission isn't defined very rigorously. He is head of the house, but he doesn't always exercise that. But like you mentioned, it's there. And I should add on that while obedience is a cornerstone, it's only one cornerstone. The real meat of "us" is our vanilla marriage. In the end, that's where both our loyalties are. The only stigma of any refusal to obey on my part is the dissolving of the D/s. Our marriage would remain intact.

toservez -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 2:13:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne pseudo power is the cornerstone imo I tend to agree with this. Obedience is a goal and byproduct of a power exchange relationship that has many goals and byproducts and not so much a cornerstone by itself.

Littlepita -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 2:15:49 PM)
Yes, it is a cornerstone of our relationship. I submit to his will with grace and docility. That doesn't mean I don't voice my opinions. I do and it is expected of me. He often defers to me because he respects me and he likes the way I think. But, he is the ultimate authority and I wouldn't think of saying no to him. But, then he wouldn't put me in a postion that I would need to disobey his will.

BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 2:41:17 PM)
The simple fact of disobeying one's Master does not negate the D/s nature of a relationship. A sub/slave always has the option of disobedience. The question is, does disobedience carry a consequence (dismissal, punishment, etc.)? If the answer is no, then there is a lack of D/s character by the very definition of the D/s dynamic. Again, labels may not be of particular importance in a relationship. You could still very well consider your previous relationship as D/s if that is how you see it. There are not strict rules defining what it means to partake in BDSM. A person could enjoy sensual spanking instead of harsh floggings and still call it BDSM if they so desire. Your previous relationship does not qualify as a D/s relationship from my perspective, but that is not necessarily your perspective. Many "vanilla" relationships could very well be considered D/s if an honest eye were to assess them. For example, imagine a woman who's man is the head of the house. He rules with an iron fist and she obeys because she feels submissive to him and fears his reprisal should she disobey. This was a common dynamic of the past American relationship and one could argue that it is a D/s dynamic. If asked, none of these people would admit that they had such a relationship. I am personally disappointed at the whole "obey me or be dismissed" mentality. Dismissal should be the ultimate punishment for disobedience. There should, in my opinion, exist varying degrees of punishment before dismissal is considered.

Stephann -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 2:43:32 PM)
I agree with what most others have mentioned; obedience isn't required for D/s. All D/s suggests, for me, is that there is an awareness of the personality traits and enjoyment of accentuating dominance and submission in a relationship. On the other hand, one could equate it with, say, formality; some people enjoy formality in a D/s relationship, others don't. It's not a question of right or wrong. Stephan

BeingChewsie -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 2:56:30 PM)
I don't know, I think obedience is a defining quality of submission. If you are submitting to the will, desires, authority of another person you are obeying (following their will, desires, authority over your own). I'm not sure how you can be submitting to the demands/orders/authority of another and not be obeying their orders/demands/authority.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:09:22 PM)
I do. However, it can sometimes be a slippery slope. What if the Master uncollared the slave and bid them farewell...because the Master was terminally ill? Would you obey then? Master Fire

ownedgirlie -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:14:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tigrita So, I’m curious as to whether anyone else has had relationships like this, where obedience is not a cornerstone, and if you still consider that D/s? Thoughts, comments? I have had non D/s relationships, in which obedience was not a cornerstone. I have not had D/s relationship like that, however. What is submission if not submitting to the will of another, and what is submitting to the will of another if not obedience? Unless of course one is merely submitting to one's own will. In my slavery, my first and foremost rule is to obey. So yes, my obedience is required to maintain the "s" part of our D/s dynamic. There may be other dynamics which do not require obedience in all things, to varying degrees. Those relationships may see a different answer than mine.

Rover -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:26:10 PM)
I'm really uncomfortable with the term "cornerstone", as that implies a necessity that must be inherent to all power exchange relationships. It's an over used cliche that rarely has any relevance beyond the individual. The only "cornerstone" I know of for power exchange relationships is (generally) the authorization for one partner to exert control, and the other partner to be controlled. If that results in obedience, then so be it. It does not always. John

BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:30:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam I do. However, it can sometimes be a slippery slope. What if the Master uncollared the slave and bid them farewell...because the Master was terminally ill? Would you obey then? Master Fire That depends on the situation. If I knew Master was dismissing me as a selfless act and in consideration of only me, I would disobey in a heartbeat. If I knew Master had other motivations, I would obey. Perhaps Master was giving me to a new Master and in this act Master would find happiness or perhaps Master would find a sense of wellbeing knowing that I would not have to see their demise. In this case I would obey.

Rover -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:30:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Then again.. well, D/s isn't M/s. subs do have the right- if not the obligation- to chose what they'll obey and not obey. I'm not at all familiar with these submissives, or the rights to which you refer. Perhaps somewhere there is some Dominant who allows their submissive to pick and choose what they will and won't obey. But I don't think I'm out of the mainstream when I say that within the context of practicality as we define it, the option to obey or not obey does not exist. That option is more aptly stated as obey or leave, which is (as I would understand it) pretty much the same option any slave has. Of course, you may have a different take on this issue and if so I'd be pleased to hear it. John

DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:36:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Then again.. well, D/s isn't M/s. subs do have the right- if not the obligation- to chose what they'll obey and not obey. I'm not at all familiar with these submissives, or the rights to which you refer. Perhaps somewhere there is some Dominant who allows their submissive to pick and choose what they will and won't obey. But I don't think I'm out of the mainstream when I say that within the context of practicality as we define it, the option to obey or not obey does not exist. That option is more aptly stated as obey or leave, which is (as I would understand it) pretty much the same option any slave has. Of course, you may have a different take on this issue and if so I'd be pleased to hear it. John John I agree with what you are saying. There are as many options in BDSM as there are in anything else in life. We chose to set up our communities, individual families and relationships how we want it. I used to think that there was a doctrine we all must follow but learned that's bullshit. Yes there are things I believe in that I was taught but if I don't agree with something I don't have to accept it. Good comments! Z-

AFlyInYourWeb -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:36:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie I don't know, I think obedience is a defining quality of submission. If you are submitting to the will, desires, authority of another person you are obeying (following their will, desires, authority over your own). I'm not sure how you can be submitting to the demands/orders/authority of another and not be obeying their orders/demands/authority. That nails it IMHO. In the military, one accepts lawful orders from accepted authority. One can ignore or disobey an order, but, as the saying goes, you'll either end up with a medal or a court-martial. In the military, there is an expectation of obedience. I know that for me, if I enter a D/s relationship, I expect to be expected to be obedient, unless she and I have agreed otherwise. Ceratinly, any couple can construct their own rules in that regard. Even in the Army, you might hang out with your sergeant in some dive bar in town, drink together, laugh at each other's jokes, and call each other by first name. However, at 0600 the following morning, you had better be awake, alert, in uniform, ready for inspection and duty, and your only acceptable answers were "Yes sergeant", "No sergeant", and "No excuse sergeant". If you needed to be frank, you asked "permission to speak freely". Otherwise, you obeyed his orders, and with all due haste and diligence. I see my relationships with a Domina in similar terms...until she has a better idea [;)]

BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:37:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Then again.. well, D/s isn't M/s. subs do have the right- if not the obligation- to chose what they'll obey and not obey. I'm not at all familiar with these submissives, or the rights to which you refer. Perhaps somewhere there is some Dominant who allows their submissive to pick and choose what they will and won't obey. But I don't think I'm out of the mainstream when I say that within the context of practicality as we define it, the option to obey or not obey does not exist. That option is more aptly stated as obey or leave, which is (as I would understand it) pretty much the same option any slave has. Of course, you may have a different take on this issue and if so I'd be pleased to hear it. John Being relatively new to all this, I may be very mistaken in my response, so please bear with me and correct me should I commit some mistake. A submissive always has the choice to disobey. This disobedience may carry with it certain consequences including but not limited to dismissal. Do all infractions against obedience warrant the dismissal of the submissive? Are some infractions better punished by a harsh spanking followed by some corner time? It is my opinion, within the framework of BDSM, that no good pairing between submissive and Master shall ever necessitate the submissive to disobey. This is just like the vanilla world. Some people make good couples, others do not.

Tigrita -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:38:13 PM)
Thanks for all the interesting comments. To those who believe that disobedience without consequence does not constitute D/s, I have an additional comment in disagreement. As I said, I submitted to a lot of things I would not have done if it were up to just me. To me, this is the essence of D/s, that I did, in many circumstances put his will ahead of mine, submit, obey. Just because I didn't do it all of the time, do the times I did submit and obey not count? There was still power exchange, it just wasn't 100%, and there was no punishment dynamic. I think CuriousLord's response summed it up very well too as to how I see it. What inspired this post is that I think a lot about how contrived this lifestyle seems a lot of the time. Sure, dominance and submission are natural dynamics in many areas of life, but I don't see why 'obey or leave' has to be the law of the land in BDSM relationships, it seems very artificial to me. I'm not saying it isn't great and fulfilling when the parties understand the rules and get mutual fulfillment out of that, but it doesn't seem like something that flows naturally without this organized lifestyle and its preconceptions, except, perhaps, with historical slaves and other enforced dynamics, but not romantic relationships.

julietsierra -> RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? (12/18/2007 3:38:26 PM)
Obedience is the cornerstone of my D/s relationship. I don't presume to decide what works for everyone else out there. The reason obedience is the cornerstone for us is that we both get off on that entire process - in a very serious way. My ability to be obedient gets me hot. My obedience to him and his ability to be in control/charge of me gets him hot. I can't for the life of me imagine me being any other way and in fact, I never have been. He's just the first man I've ever been in a relationship with who knows how to do this exactly right - for him and for me. And yes, we do have the understanding in place that if I'm choosing not to be obedient, I'm choosing not to submit. It's not fearful to me. It's exciting. It's a challenge and I DO love a challenge. And ultimately, it makes my heart full, my soul free and all sorts of other pithy kinds of responses. How could I NOT be obedient? He's worth it all. juliet

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