RE: Is professional domination legal?

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littlesarbonn -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 11:24:18 AM)
One of many reasons credit cards aren't taken is the propensity of people who challenge charges on their credit cards. As domination is a good that is over the second that it is provided, if someone challenges a charge on a credit card, the professional dominant (or submissive) has no way of reclaiming the service that was provided. There are many reasons it may appear to be under the table in how pro domination works, and sometimes it may be because someone is keeping it under the table for tax and income purposes. However, there is also the danger of a culture that tends to villify anything that is sexually deviant from the norm. What we find normal and enjoyable has all sorts of other prominent citizens up in arms about. There are even some of them who are attending mass meetings in the name of some religion to "cure" us of this evil behavior. Some of those people are affiliated with people who have power in our cities and townships. Police have been known to raid a pro dominant's home, take everything out of the place and confiscate it forever, mainly because they know she has very little ability to fight them without having a lot of money to take on the system that has endless flows of money from the people who pay into the city's funding mechanisms. So, I don't see why it would be difficult to realize that for sake of simplicity, safety and survivability, it ends up being both a cash business and one that stays out of the record, because way too many "sting" operations are designed by some pretty stupid people who might just substantiate that search warrant based on a receipt for "services". Remember, even though we know we're not doing anything illegal, if we're railroaded into the system, we end up being guilty until we can prove otherwise. The system isn't designed that way, but that's how it works whenever you're dealing with people who are on the edge of society's acceptability.

honeypanties -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 11:26:35 AM)
If you want a pro-domme that provides reciepts. -- Go find one. If you want a pro-domme that takes credit cards. -- Go find one. If you want a pro-domme that will explain to you all her financial reporting practices. -- Go find one. If you want a pro-domme that is part of the community BBB. -- Go find one. If you want a pro-domme who gives out he real name, address, etc. -- Go find one. If you want a pro-domme that will help you commit fraud by charges her services by credit card to your company. -- Go find one. Can't find one? Oh really............................... Can hardly find a pro-domme period able to do waht you want, fit your schedulle, cater to your OTHER whims? You know why??? -- because it is a pain in the ass, high stress occupation! lol Oh. Hnmm. then Make a decision for yourself based on the choices you do have and MOVE ON either way. No one is making you see anyone, it is YOUR choice. -- JUST as it is HERS what/who she accepts. "If you're lifestyle is so important to you, show that it can operate in a leagle manner given the oppertunity. " -- ChainsandFreedom ChainsandFreedom --- Yeah, would be nice if we all lived in a world where people were not discriminated against. -- Were not denied credit, harased at their home by community or neighborhood, kids harased or made fun of at school, stalkers thinking you ave no rights if you do erotic work, or generally being excluded from other communtiy issues like PTA, Car pool, and having a legitimate say-so in your homeowners association or kid's soccer league -- But you know what?? If you are a Pro-Domme -- YOU DON'T. So yeah, it's important to them to b e accepted, respected for their work -- But MORE important than every other aspect of their lives that could be ruined becaue of it?? -- Get real. If you want a pro-domme or demand to have a pro-domme that is "out" -- Then FIND ONE and see them. Who cares. But if actually understood anything about it [or even respected that person's right to choose to be out or not yourself] you would understand -- it is not a business issue at all, but a personal one. One unfortuantely many do not have the luxury of choosing even if they'd like to if the world were different. And unfortunately that does tie their hands a bit as to how they opperate their business, even if they would like to be doing it differently, they can not without being "out." You sound very judgemental to me -- Like "Oh, so you want to be a pro-domme but keep your life?, how dare you" lol -- So silly. MOST people, even in the kink community are not "out" to all members of society. Pro-dommes are allowed that choice as well. There are plenty of checks and ballances in place already for finding a "legitimate" prodomme through reviews, and reputation. The community kind-of regualtes itself and ehr business is ties to providing well and being an upstanding domme so all that is not a huge concern when you get down to it. There is no way for a Pro-domme to run business the way you call for unless she is completely "out" to ALL. Asside from the personal reasons most people in kink have for not doing this, Pro-dommes have even MORE of a reason because of stalkers, bodilly/physical harm, and the fact that as a "pro-domme" she could be even LESS respected in the community than someone generally into "kink". It is pretty judgemental of you to say that pro-dommes need to "own-up" when they have even more to loose and could have much more serious harm come to them than even the average kink person. Everyone has the right to choice. And that includes -- The right to choose to be "out." or not. Especially when the stakes are so high. You may think you are asking for business reform, but in order to that, they would have to give up/expose EVERYTHING about their personal lives, future personal lives, and the lives of their whole family so it is not really a business issue at all. And not within the right of any customer to demand. However, Customers have the right to Choose who they see -- for pro- or nonpro domming, playing, etc. If those things are important to them, they can of course see or just not se anyone. It is the way it is for a reason. Pro-dommes are not necessarrily trying to be unlawful. In fact, many have very Very good ethics and practices, I mean, they are upholding themselves to values and practices. -- That is how they stay in business by having a good reputation. It is not anyone's right to tell anyone they have to expose something that could bring them and their family members such harm. Pro-dommes might be fine with more traditional business practices if It didn't mean their whole life and future life was at stake due to discrimination and Risk of harm to them and family -- physically and psychologically. However, It is an impossible request given the current state of society and the HUGE HUGE Risk. Think about it: It has nothing [and I mean Nothing] to do with business practices.

BoiJen -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 11:29:50 AM)
CaF...how many Pro Dommes do you know personally? How many do you do business close enough with to say "most" Pro Dommes don't report their taxation properly? And I lived in Pa...went to NY and NJ frequently. The law does not require a reciept. Most businesses in the area issue them and keep CLOSE tabs due to the level of shopping and tourism in those states. It's to their direct and continuous benefit to do so should any potential fraud occur they are also protected by certain rights and responsibilties. As stated earlier...unless an individual owns a protion of a company they are not entitled to ANY documentation of said company's financial records. Here we have a scammer trying to scam the people they work for by calling other people scammers. If that hurt your head good. And yeah I'm still going to have my wonderful wonton soup....I know the risks and responsibilties of my chocies as does any client of a Pro Domme or a Pro Domme Herself. I own up to that and continue to operate in the manner that I have for years now. And given that I actually do see a Pro Domme on a daily basis (living with Her is GREAT!) and serve Her personally I'm not too terribly concerned about getting my whole pay check back...the mortgage company isn't gonna give it back to me because of a rope burn. And finally if choose to believe it or not...those torot laws and anti-trust laws have been manipulated and twisted to keep the gov't's pockets full and hands free of responsibility. Capitalism at it's best is "how can I make the biggest buck the fastest easiest way with the least amount of effort" before I EVEN get worried about a Pro Domme who may or may not be scamming a couple of hundred dollars a year away...I'm gonna get pissed at the gov't who wastes my tax dollars and my countrymen's lives. I'm gonna get pissed at HUGE corporations who rob the American public of millions in tax ollars because they shook hands with enough congressmen and the Devil at the same time. Sorry on the scale of fish to fry...what a tiny portion of the nation's possible income is vs. the large amounts of unreproted and stashed away embesseled cash from fortune 500 companies....I'm gonna be more concerned with the bigger fish here. So to the OP: Stop bitching because you lost your one loop hole in the process and just cough up the cash for the session.

honeypanties -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 11:36:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn One of many reasons credit cards aren't taken .... danger of a culture that tends to villify anything that is sexually deviant from the norm. ...... Some of those people are affiliated with people who have power in our cities and townships. Police have been known to raid ....... mainly because they know she has very little ability to fight them .... ... [ And some other good stuff ] What she said! [sm=whip.gif] The very people to whom you would have to reveal info to in order to have a traditional business, might be the people able to exert force or influence over not JUST your business but personal life and personal life or your FAMILY as well!!! In short -- Traditional Business practices are not a Legitimate option for a Pro-domme, even if she wanted to do business like that, She can not risk it or risk unknown ramifications to her familly. It just, Is. Not. An. Option. Unfortunately!!!

MsSaskia -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:23:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman Actually, for strip clubs can and do provide a receipt and a portion can be claimed as deduction for entertainment expenses (again, depends on state and tax law). Also, that is why I contacted established dugeons as I thought they would be in a position to provide some sort of confirmation of payment and provide some vauge reference of the service provided. You're actually going to claim that you can get a receipt for dollar bills that you tuck into a dancer's g-string? Seriously? If you really want to get gung-ho about casting aspersions on the legitimacy of an adult business owner based on whether you're able to cheat your own company with a receipt, you might as well get lathered up about zoning issues, business licensing, practitioner certification and licensing, insurance, health code inspections, employee benefits and rights, etc. Of course, since pro domination is rarely recognized by civic authorities and no certification or licensing programs exist, it's impossible for us to conform to the letter of nonexistent regulations. I can see how you'd think that the business part ends where your ability to perpetrate fraud begins, but funnily enough there's more to it than that. A much better way to really stick it to your company is to get pro domination included as a health maintenance and stress prevention measure so you can have it included on your health insurance. Let your insurance company do all the work of establishing whether your choice of recreation has adequate paperwork set up. Once you've figured out how we can do all that, I promise on behalf of pro dommes everywhere that we'll put your receipt where you'll be highly unlikely to lose track of it.

dsubmissiveman -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:24:19 PM)
Thank-you everyone for your input on this topic. A lot of the posters here seem to think that I am villifying pro dommes by questioning their business practises. All I simply asked was "Is pro domination legal"? I never made any value judgement on them as people or their ethics. If I did, please do point it out and confront me then. CoF, I would like to thank-you for providing an explanation on the legal merits of providing a receipt. A registered, legal business in North America should be able to provide a receipt on request, regardless of methold of payment. As others have pointed out, there are headaches involved with accepting credit cards. That is fine, but you should still able to generate a receipt. It should be pointed out though, in the past I visited a well-established dungeon in another city that did provide payment via credit card and did issue a receipt, so there are obviously some dommes who have found a way to deal with various nuances. Also, while reporting income and being a legal business maybe two different legal issues, they both are vital to the continued operation of the business according to the law. That is why I felt that these two particular issues were worthy of mention. Also, as CoF mentioned, if they are not issuing receipts and following the law in one area, they leave themselves vulnerable to suspicion when it comes to others areas of the law. Furthermore, from a service provider perspective, if they want the best protection from the law concerning their business, it is in their best practise to uphold the laws that it should abide by and this in my opinion, includes being able to provide a receipt. As clients, it is our responsiblity to make that decision and analyze whether we are comfortable with the trade-off. As far as revealing the name of my employer, well, I like where I work and how they treat me, so I'm not even going to bother going in that direction. However, it really is not that uncommon for many professionals to get certain activities expensed through their employer eventhough they do not related remotely to their work performance.

NakedHouseboySlv -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:25:05 PM)
Professional domination is not legal and it is viewed as a form of prostitution in the vast majority of states in the US.

dsubmissiveman -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:34:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia quote: ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman Actually, for strip clubs can and do provide a receipt and a portion can be claimed as deduction for entertainment expenses (again, depends on state and tax law). Also, that is why I contacted established dugeons as I thought they would be in a position to provide some sort of confirmation of payment and provide some vauge reference of the service provided. You're actually going to claim that you can get a receipt for dollar bills that you tuck into a dancer's g-string? Seriously? If you really want to get gung-ho about casting aspersions on the legitimacy of an adult business owner based on whether you're able to cheat your own company with a receipt, you might as well get lathered up about zoning issues, business licensing, practitioner certification and licensing, insurance, health code inspections, employee benefits and rights, etc. Of course, since pro domination is rarely recognized by civic authorities and no certification or licensing programs exist, it's impossible for us to conform to the letter of nonexistent regulations. I can see how you'd think that the business part ends where your ability to perpetrate fraud begins, but funnily enough there's more to it than that. A much better way to really stick it to your company is to get pro domination included as a health maintenance and stress prevention measure so you can have it included on your health insurance. Let your insurance company do all the work of establishing whether your choice of recreation has adequate paperwork set up. Once you've figured out how we can do all that, I promise on behalf of pro dommes everywhere that we'll put your receipt where you'll be highly unlikely to lose track of it. Well, like I said in my original post, I am not trying to create legal fireworks and definitely not trying to set precedent. I was under the impression that BDSM services are legal and as registered business owners, they would be in a position to provide me with a receipt. As far as perpetuating fraud, well, I'm sure if they wanted to fire me, they could have someone do the research and try to make it stick. I make no apologies for that. If I'm in a position where I can enjoy a service and have my corporate masters reimburse me for it, I'm sure most would take the opportunity. In regards to strip clubs, well, you are able to charge drinks and entertainment to the company card and you do get reimbursed. I find it quite surprising that many on these board seem to think what I am doing in so uncommon.

MisPandora -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:39:08 PM)
blinks Are you for real? What are you going to do -- write off your kink exploits in your taxes? This is one of the more ridiculous posts I've seen on these boards.

RumpusParable -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:39:50 PM)
I think people are just finding it ironic that you're making thinly veiled accusations of others acting illegaly or unethically because they aren't making it easy for you to act in an illegal or unethical manner.

MisPandora -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:41:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman However, my job does involve business-to-business sales so it is not uncommon for me to entertain business partners. While I would have to prove the business aspect of the expense, under our corporate expense policy and given the small amount (hourly sessions are usually $200-$300), I probably would not have much difficulty sliding this past our accounting department. Here's a guy.....who is worried about the pro dom being legal and giving him a receipt to beat his ass or bugger him. And he plans to CHEAT HIS COMPANY WITH IT! Unfuckingbelievable.

Maya2001 -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:43:44 PM)
I do have a business in Ontario and have it legally registered submit sales taxes, good and service tax and pay income tax, initially I was one on 3 businesses on my type in Ontario but then others open having the exact same business I have but have chosen to refer to it as a hobby business instead claiming they make under $xx K a year, because they can sell their stuff without paying any taxes they can charge a lot less therefore pushed me into a point where my business cannot generate enough sales to earn profit but regardless I still have to pay the taxes on my sales and cannot change my status to hobby business now that I an registered, so I end up operating in the red while the hobby business owner makes profit and keeps it all, . The point is registering small businesses in Ontario that are making less that $xx K is not worth it and does nothing but harm and forces the person to have to charge more for the same service than the one that is operates as a hobby business so they cut their own throat by registering as income earning business. So it is quite possible the Pro Dommes who are not offering reciepts are not making sufficient income that would require business registration and have chosen to class their business are hobby inorder to keep some of their profits in their pocket and not be by strangled out by other hobby business competitors If you want to point fingers and blame point it instead to the Ontario goverments small business programs which puts small businesses at a disadvantage for registering and not giving them the breaks they need to compete with hobby businesses who don't have to pay taxes or report their income. If your sales allows you to earn more by visiting pro dommes then suck it up and pay the cash and quit worrying about the reciept at least you are still profiting, if you want prodommes who are earning far less profit than you to register just so you can claim as an expense just to further you own income you may very well end up driving them out of business and then where will you go to get the sales edge? Just remember all that nice dungeon equipment costs money and rents are not cheap in TO. and they likely do not operate steady regular hours like you do, so their profit income potential will be limited and may keep them under the base to have to report

MsSaskia -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:45:27 PM)
These particular issue - whether pro domination is prostitution or not - has been hashed out on CollarChat ad nauseum. If you have any proof whatsoever, post it. Otherwise, reiterating the same unfounded myths is just taking up space.

MsSaskia -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:48:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman In regards to strip clubs, well, you are able to charge drinks and entertainment to the company card and you do get reimbursed. I find it quite surprising that many on these board seem to think what I am doing in so uncommon. When you're given a receipt in a strip club, it is for the price of admission to a club and for beverages and food. You are not given a receipt for they money you give directly to the entertainers. You're not the only one familiar with strip clubs.

MisPandora -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 12:52:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dsubmissiveman Well, truth be told, part of the reason why I'm interested is because I would like to option of charging to my corporate tab. However, if I can't charge it, I am fine paying cash for it. However, if it is a legal business, should it not provide the clients the option? I mean, if they are paying taxes, don't they have to have sort of paper trail to record revenues so that they can be charged the appropriate amount of personal and corporate tax? I do understand that law enforcement for the most part does not waste their time and resources to preventing consenual, adult behavior, but I just want some clarity regarding pro domination. growls You really don't know what sort of hornet's nest you're shaking. You're asking an international community whether Professional Domination is legal. No one is willing to answer you, so if you're a smart guy, you may have the first part of your answer -- not really in most places. But most of us are not lawyers or attorney generals or whathaveyou. We also might know what's legal in OUR state but not in your country. Given that I know of two court cases in Canada where pro doms were shut down for various reasons, I'd venture a guess that it's not "legal" by definition, however, their businesses may be operating under a shell -- say, as a bed and breakfast, professional consulting firm, photography studio, etc. She may very well pay taxes and have a business license, but that doesn't mean that what she's technically engaging in IS legal. Also, most pros will not have a merchant account with a bank. Fetish businesses like retailers already have a hard enough time getting a decent rate on credit card processing. So do you know why? Risk to the bank. What risk, you ask? YOU. You as a customer are a risk. When I worked as manager of a well-known retail fetish boutique here on the eastern coast of the US, I had several incidents where customers tried to CHARGE BACK merchandise they'd received. This happened out of guilt or because he was trying to hide his kinky purchases from a spouse or BOSS. The risk incrementally increases for a bank depending on what the merchant is selling. Services retain the highest risk because there is little proof that one actually received the service in question. When you combine SM services with the guilt of sating one's sexual desires, that results in a business that is ultra-high risk to hold a merchant account. You've already incriminated yourself that you intend to commit a crime against your corporation. Please don't solicit the rest of us to aid and abet your defrauding a corporation out of money so you can get your rocks off. Personally, I'd drop it before every prodom in Ontario and the surrounding provinces get wind that you're a criminal and turn you into the RCMP when you least expect it. You'd be easy enough to spot: the only guy on the planet asking for a friggin receipt for his spanky-spanky.

dsubmissiveman -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 1:00:40 PM)
MsSaskia, If you read my original about strip clubs, I did mention a portion of it was reimbursed by my employer. You are correct that you can't necessarily claim every penny on these type of expenses, but a large portion of it was expensed. As I mentioned before, sometimes you have a budget and you don't necessarily have to give all the details of the expense, but you are able to expense it.

mnottertail -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 1:02:06 PM)
This is fucking ridiculous, why don't you walk into the office that approves your expenses and ask them? If they go for a strip club, what is the deal about asking them if they reimburse ass kickings? Ron(ne) WANK!!!!

dsubmissiveman -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 1:18:07 PM)
I did not intend to make any thinly veiled accusations. I simply asked "Is pro domination legal?" and I did not state "Pro domination is illegal". If by simply asking a question, when cofronted with evidence that it may not be legal (lack of receipt), I have made a value judgement, I apologize. I posed this question to the board in hopes of gaining insight from knowledgeable and experienced players. As far as any action taken by my employer (legal or otherwise), I do admit that expensing is wrong. However, I am also pretty confident that if my employer was confronted with the evidence, they would more than likely look the other way. There are plenty of reasons for this, but mainly it has do with our corporate structure. The reason why I don't just walk in and ask is because I, like my employer enjoy the discretion of all this. I simply forward my receipts to the appropriate department and they decide whether it warrants expensing. I have worked there for some time now, and the department has never asked me for clarification regarding any expenses.

mnottertail -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 1:21:21 PM)
Then you are all set, forward the expense... and you could have discreetly not even asked the question, and we wouldn't have to be any the wiser. Is that also not the case? Ron(ne)

laurell3 -> RE: Is professional domination legal? (12/20/2007 1:24:48 PM)
I'm not a pro Domme, but I have my own business, I don't accept credit cards and I deal in cash/checks only. I do report all my earnings to the IRS and pay taxes on them. The fact you can't pay by credit card is not an indication that the business is illegal or not paying taxes. I can't possibly imagine what business you would be in that could legally expense out services to a Pro Domme. You do understand there are tax consequences for valid business expenses correct? The person attempting to break the law is you on behalf of your company and shame on you.

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