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Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign policy - 12/23/2007 9:32:05 AM   
Termyn8or


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Y'know, Cuban cigars are illegal, there are all kinds of restrictions with respect to Cubans, they can't see their family, they can't send money, all kinds of shit. We are at odds with the Castros, got embargos and all kinds of things going on, yet we have a military base there ?

People must have been taught not to think very well not to see through this. First of all, if we don't like Castro (his brother now I guess) why is he still there if we have a military base there ? Another valid question is if Castro and Co do not like us, why hasn't our base been thrown out of Cuba ?

This leads me to believe that the whole premise of animosity between the US and Cuban goverment is only for show. How can you let an enemy have a military base in your country ? or, if you have a military base in an enemy's country, why are they still emenies ? Why hasn't the "regime change" happened ? It has been decades.

How many hundreds of miles is Cuba from the US ? How many thousands of miles is Iraq from the US ?

This is not an enigma for me, I got part of it figured out, Cuba can't get rid of the military base there. Do we perhaps have one in Venezuela as well ? Do you think the Germans want a US base there ?

Taken together, this has a very ominous slant. We impose ourselves. Do you have any idea how repugnant that is to me ?

But then answer me this, do we have bases in China, Israel or Russia ? Aren't they our allies who we should be helping ?

What conclusion can be drawn ? It almost seems as though we have bases in countries where we prop up tyrannical governments against their Peoples' will. Cuba is a notable exception, or is it ? Is this all just a play for us ? A show ? Or is it possible that the US has the leverage and weapons tro totally take over Cuba, and even has a military base there from which to do it, can't do it for some reason.

They continue sanctions that hurt the People on both sides of the fence when a solution is a pushbutton away, why ? I think I know why. If I am right it is not pretty.

But one thing is for sure, it is the way it is because THEY want it the way it is. Coming down to the reason why they want it the way it is, well, I don't think people could really handle the truth, if I indeed know it. No Man can be certain of another's goals, but results speak volumes. Look at the results, get it into your head that these are the results that the powers that be wanted.

Now put it into reverse for a moment. Just why did they want these results ?

Are you recieving me ? Do you get what I am really getting at ? I don't need details about JFK, the Mossad, the Russians, the missile crisis, all just means to an end. This end, and this end is up. It's not so much how we got here at this point. It is WHY we got here.

T
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/23/2007 10:56:18 AM   
luckydog1


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We signed the lease for Guantamono Bay before Castro siezed power.  At first he agreed to honor it.   I know you already said you wanted to ignore a bunch of relevant events in the history of Cuban /US/USSR relations, but they really do matter.  The USSR shielded Castro under thier Nuclear umbrella for decades.  And we adopted a policy of containment with them, after the USSR fell we decided to just wait Castro out.  We could invade Cuba tomorow, The EU, China, and Russia would flip out, and there would be no real benefit.

Yes, the Germans want our bases there very much, as do most of the countries we have bases in.  The Cuba thing is the exception.  We don't have bases in China or Russia, and they are not our Allies, nor do we in Venezuela.

Your poor grasp of logic is really showing in this point...So no matter what happens it was willed by "THEY", and YOU can back engineer intentt....If you do not understand why that is wrong, I can't help you.  But that is why you see conspiricay everywhere.  Intentionally ignoring facts, and without basis assuming every event is controlled by TPB.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/23/2007 11:14:36 AM   
Leonardo


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1. The US has had a military presence at Gitmo since and as a result of the Spanish-American War (about a quarter century before Fidel was even born).

2. Cuba has an office, fully staffed, in D.C., which is also considered and treated as foreign soil, just like any other embassy is supposed to be treated throughout the world.

3. Open Relationships between the US and Cuba are continually maintained severed due to the political influence of the Cubans in the US.

4. It is not about communism v capitolism. It is not about freedoms v oppression. It is not about common sense. It always boils down to the almighty dollar.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/23/2007 11:30:56 AM   
Rushemery


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"The Truth! You cant handle the Truth!"  Jack Nicholson

(in reply to Leonardo)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/23/2007 3:41:03 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Speaking as a Brit who posts as a rule from a pro USA perspective I think you make yourselves a laughing stock over your attitudes to Cuba.
Trade with Cuba, do not forbid anyone else to trade with them, dont worry too much whether the govnt is democratic and I would bet things would improve dramatically and every one would be happy.
US definition of democracy: he is most deserving of office who can spend the most on media adverts,

Oh yes and bring Guantanamo and what goes on there under the rule of LAW.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/23/2007 3:42:39 PM >

(in reply to Rushemery)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/24/2007 3:17:48 AM   
Termyn8or


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lucky, you first.

I know there are some cracks in my mold, but the question is the question. I will rebut more point by point sometime, but the ambiguity of the US/Cuba relationship is disturbing.

You bring up leases signed before the Castro regime. OK, but if they are a criminal regime they would just take the base away and loot it would they not ? Or start lying to get the populous against the US to throw us out. If we have no official legal agreement with the government in existence there right now, we have no right to be there.

But then that is part of the question. What if the agreement is null and void ? That means we are occupying part of their country right now, even though they have not taken any agressive action against us. You know the same is true of Germany.

Think of this, we have military bases in about 130 countries. The way I am starting to see it (put the joint down) is that of course the government there that we prop up wants us there, but I would say in most cases the People do not In fact, with the anti-US opinion in Europe right now, in the near future we could see requests for the US to remove it's bases.

And that's not even the whole front end of it. Other countries, even though loyal to the US are going to start dropping dollars, whether they actually switch to Eruos or even Yuans, they will stop propping up the US economy with the buying of Tbills etc. Thgey will think of their own well being. Whan will our leaders ever do that ?

Times are going to rough people, get ready. Need I say more ?

T

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/24/2007 8:48:23 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Guantanamo Bay Naval Base

During the Spanish-American War, the U.S. fleet attacking Santiago retreated to Guantánamo's excellent harbor to ride out the summer hurricane season of 1898. The Marines landed with naval support, but required Cuban scouts to push off Spanish resistance that increased as they moved inland. This area became the location of U.S. Naval Station Guantanamo Bay, which covers about 45 square miles (116 km²) and is sometimes abbreviated as GTMO or "Gitmo".

By the war's end, the U.S. government had obtained control of all of Cuba from Spain. A perpetual lease for the area around Guantánamo Bay was offered February 23, 1903, from Tomás Estrada Palma, an American citizen, who became the first President of Cuba. The Cuban-American Treaty gave, among other things, the Republic of Cuba ultimate sovereignty over Guantánamo Bay while granting the United States "complete jurisdiction and control" of the area for coaling and naval stations.

A 1934 treaty reaffirming the lease granted Cuba and her trading partners free access through the bay, modified the lease payment from $2,000 in U.S. gold coins per year, to the 1934 equivalent value of $4,085 in U.S. dollars, and made the lease permanent unless both governments agreed to break it or the U.S. abandoned the base property. Since the Cuban Revolution the government under Fidel Castro has cashed only one of the rent checks from the US government, and only because of "confusion" in the heady early days of the leftist revolution. The remaining uncashed checks made out to "Treasurer General of the Republic" (A position that has ceased to exist after the revolution) are kept in Castro's office stuffed into a desk drawer. [2]

...


The long-term lease of this territory by the United States has been unpopular with the current Cuban government since 1959. The present sovereign's of the territory covering Guantanamo Bay, the Republic of Cuba, led by the Communist Party of Cuba, claim that as sovereign land owners they may evict the people who live and work there, pointing to article 52[14] of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties which declares a treaty void if its conclusion has been procured by the threat or use of force — in this case by the inclusion, in 1901, of the Platt Amendment in the first Cuban Constitution.

The United States warned the Cuban Constitutional Convention not to remove the Amendment, and stated U.S. troops would not leave Cuba until its terms had been adopted as a condition for the U.S. to grant independence. However, the United States argues that Article 4 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties prohibits retroactive (after the fact) application of said Convention to already existing treaties [15] such as the ones concluded between the US and Cuba in 1903 and 1934.

The Platt Amendment was dissolved in 1934, and the treaty re-affirming the lease to the base was signed after Franklin D. Roosevelt dispatched 29 US warships to Cuba and Key West to protect U.S. interests following a military coup.[16]

Since coming to power in 1959, Cuban President Fidel Castro has refused to cash all but the very first rent check in protest. [17] But the United States argues that its cashing signifies Havana's ratification of the lease — and that ratification by the new government renders moot any questions about violations of sovereignty and illegal military occupation.

Treaties/Lease Agreements

1. TREATY SERIES No. 418: LEASE OF COALING OR NAVAL STATIONS AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CUBA
Signed by the President of Cuba, February 16, 1903. Signed by the President of the United States, February 23, 1903.

2. TREATY SERIES No. 866: RELATIONS TREATY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND CUBA
Signed at Washington, May 29, 1934
Ratification advised by the Senate of the United States, May 31, 1934 (legislative day of May 28, 1934)
Ratified by the President of the United States, June 5, 1934.
Ratified by Cuba, June 4, 1934. Ratifications exchanged at Washington, June 9, 1934.
Proclaimed by the President of the United States, June 9, 1934.

A very detailed online history of Gitmo up til 1953.  Two volumes online with appendices:
The History of Guantanamo Bay 1494-1964
by M.E. Murphy, Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy
originally published Jan. 5, 1953


No "hidden and deep conspiracy".  Global politics, gunboat diplomacy, and politics.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/24/2007 9:12:26 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rushemery

"The Truth! You cant handle the Truth!"  Jack Nicholson



Bush's tampering with the United States Attorneys, and firing them for not being the right kind of religious fundamentalist and other ideological grounds isn't the issue here.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Rushemery)
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RE: Something has occured to me about Cub/Us foreign po... - 12/24/2007 9:13:35 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Speaking as a Brit who posts as a rule from a pro USA perspective I think you make yourselves a laughing stock over your attitudes to Cuba.


We are pretty fucking stupid about it, aren't we? Just because Fidel peed in someone's cornflakes 50 years ago?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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