RE: Bush is so full of shit... (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:11:01 AM)

Yeah, wow, the fuckin info coming from these guys is overwhelming....

A many outta gitmo and abugrahib have been let go with no charges, we now know where osama bin lauden is, where the weapons of mass destruction are, who all the insurgents and terrorists are and who is financing who, all due to the torture.

Or do we?

Tomas de Torquemada



Sanity -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:12:35 AM)

"Always" is a big word. Can you think of no circumstance where you yourself would condone torture? Say an entire school full of kindergarteners had been kidnapped... how far would you go to save them.

There are a lot of really awful hypotheticals I could pose to you.

The point is, even if torture is "bad" there are times when even you would resort to it, I am sure.


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Information obtained by torture will always be 'bad' even when the information is correct.



Sanity -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:14:15 AM)

I think she means "morally questionable".


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Information obtained by torture will always be 'bad' even when the information is correct.


You mean "Morally tainted"?

Firm




Mercnbeth -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:17:42 AM)

On the fence about this one.

Heard a story about a police captain in Germany who threatened torture to an admitted kidnapper. As a result, just from the threat, the kidnapper disclosed the location of the child; buried underground in a small box. The police captain was fired for his efforts.
quote:

A German Police captain is currently under investigation for ordering the threat of torture of a kidnapper, so that they could find out the location of the kidnapped child. It was extremely sad that this step turned out to be unnecessary as the kidnapper confessed immediately after the threat that the child was already dead. To pile farce over tragedy, the German Captain is going to be prosecuted nonetheless. Under German law, torture is strictly forbidden and if you ask me, the Police captain will be sentenced. There has been quite a lot of discussion in the press and speaking to my friends in Germany, there is a huge outpouring of support for the Captain. This led to a very difficult question – can torture ever be justified?
Source: http://piquancy.blogspot.com/2004/12/is-torture-justified-ever.html

Couldn't find a link to the actual occurrence, this happened in 2004. However I am positive that the ultimate result was that the captain was fired. Were it your daughter...

Faced with the option of water-boarding those behind 9/11 to prevent the attack; if someone brought the board, I'd have supplied the water from by bladder and not had one pang of regret.

It seems that those seeing this as a black and white issue are the same group that sees gray areas in many other situations. Illegal aliens, defaulting mortgages, are but two examples.

I neither condone or condemn; however in all the examples given; the 'victims' of torture still live and breath; unlike their victims.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:18:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, wow, the fuckin info coming from these guys is overwhelming....

A many outta gitmo and abugrahib have been let go with no charges, we now know where osama bin lauden is, where the weapons of mass destruction are, who all the insurgents and terrorists are and who is financing who, all due to the torture.

Or do we?

Tomas de Torquemada



Well, because of your dual assignments in the Pentagon and the CIA, along with your "Ultra" clearances means that you have perfect knowledge of all interrogation activities of US forces world-wide and the entire current status of anti-terrorists operations internationally ... I'm sure we can take your word for anything you'd care to espouse about the subject.

... (huh? What's that? You currently live on a farm in the American heartland? No Pentagon clearances? You don't even subscribe to a newspaper? Well, in that case ... pfffft!!!!.)

Firm



mnottertail -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:29:49 AM)

But of course there is secretive magic behind the scenes, and they are protecting us from it.  It has to be, what other logical explanation could there be that they haven't shown us the WMD or grabbed up Bin Laden or anything or straightened out Iraq, it is so far above us in terms of intelligence, there is a grander plan a glorious goal, and us fiddlefucksticks are fed the pablum of the right-wing media that nobody knows what the fuck they are doing in the administration.....

I forgot.pppppppppppppppfffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttt.



Sanity -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 10:37:07 AM)

That's like saying that, because I can't show you a bucket of gravitons, physics must be a load of horse crap

Your argument doesn't hold any water

Tough questioning isn't a magical crystal ball, as you're suggesting others claim - but it can be more effective than a mere cozy jail cell, which is a fact that you're having trouble coming to terms with



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But of course there is secretive magic behind the scenes, and they are protecting us from it.  It has to be, what other logical explanation could there be that they haven't shown us the WMD or grabbed up Bin Laden or anything or straightened out Iraq, it is so far above us in terms of intelligence, there is a grander plan a glorious goal, and us fiddlefucksticks are fed the pablum of the right-wing media that nobody knows what the fuck they are doing in the administration.....

I forgot.pppppppppppppppfffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttt.



mnottertail -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 11:03:15 AM)

Nor does the counter provided, FYI, in fact it is the least reasonable of any.

Ron



RazorJAK -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 11:27:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: RazorJAK


All those people were either hung or died in prison due to information extracted from torture.  If you claim that this information was verifiable then you're also claiming to believe in witchcraft.  Since that is what they were all accused of.

Want to try again about information gained from torture being accurate and verifiable.  Want to try again about people being tortured not saying untruths in order to have the pain end? 


You are failing to make an important distinction.

"Torture" to get a "confession", is far from interrogation designed to extract useable tactical and strategic information.

Certainly, if you wish for someone to "confess" for show-trials, you can indeed make them admit anything using torture.

If you goal is to extract information that can be effectively used in operations, then it's an entirely different kettle of fish.

Firm


The majority of those people were arrested due to "information" gathered during the torture of another.  So yes,  you've shown how effective torture is at gathering valuable and pertinent information.

The comparison holds water doubly due to the Salem incident being as much a land grab as it was a religious witch-hunt.




mnottertail -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 12:00:55 PM)

LOL

OK, here is my goal Mustapha, as you swallow water and drown.

I only want tactical and strategic information...

OK, here is my goal Witch, as you swallow water and drown.

I want the names of the other witches.

Yeah, put that way, I guess I see the vast difference, there is somewhat of a distinction...................


Ron 



farglebargle -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 12:09:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Can you think of no circumstance where you yourself would condone torture?


If someone thinks it's NECESSARY to torture a prisoner to extract information, why wouldn't the TORTURER then turn himself in for trial and imprisonment for his CRIME?

Actually, the would just plead "Guilty" at their arraignment, if they had Honor and Integrity.

My problem isn't "Someone in the breech", doing, "What needs to be done". It's them escaping the CONSEQUENCES of their CHOICES.

If some interrogator thinks it's THAT IMPORTANT, they should be WILLING to do the time.

"Don't Do The Crime, If You Can't Do The Time"



farglebargle -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 12:11:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I think she means "morally questionable".



When we legitimize torture, as a nation, we become *EXACTLY* as evil as any other nation which legitimizes torture.




farglebargle -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 12:17:54 PM)

quote:

But of course there is secretive magic behind the scenes, and they are protecting us from it.


That is inconsistent with both the 5th Amendment and 14th Amendment's guarantees of Due Process and Equal Protection.

Fifth Amendment:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Fourteenth Amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And anyone who SWORE AN OATH to protect and defend these Amendments, and VIOLATES THAT OATH is a piece of shit, and unworthy to represent the United States in *any* capacity.




Zensee -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 2:21:55 PM)

Considering that the CIA and similar groups using "modern" torture techniques claim they can break a subject in about 48 hours (i.e. get them to spill the beans) the necessity to continue torture for years on end, at illegal detention centers like Guantanamo, speaks either to their systematic cruelty, their incompetence as torturers or their incapacity with basic arithmetic.

You cannot favourably compare prolonged and institutionalised torture with its occasional use in battlefield conditions. And a nation cannot claim to be exporting democracy at the end of a water-board.


Z.



luckydog1 -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 5:13:24 PM)

Do you have any sort of evidence that people are being tortured for years on end?  I have never even heard this claim made before.  Unless you count simply holding them as torture, which does seem to be the endgame your side is working for.



luckydog1 -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 5:19:24 PM)

"How would they tell you anything? Hummm... there's drugs, there's threatening them with knowledge of their familie's whereabouts, there's trickery, there's faking them out.... then there's... boredom. How long can you stay in a cell with no human contact before you break? "

Bipolar barber, are you actually sugesting we go hurt thier famillies?  Simply pretending is a rather empty threat, it would require actually doing to be credible.

Wouldn't trickery and faking them out be exactly what was done in Abu Graid with the fake car batteries?, which the left went nuts over.  Boredom seems to be the main form of interogation we do use.



farglebargle -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 6:31:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"How would they tell you anything? Hummm... there's drugs, there's threatening them with knowledge of their familie's whereabouts, there's trickery, there's faking them out.... then there's... boredom. How long can you stay in a cell with no human contact before you break? "

Bipolar barber, are you actually sugesting we go hurt thier famillies?  Simply pretending is a rather empty threat, it would require actually doing to be credible.


You mean like when the US captured Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's kids?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,445117,00.html

quote:


Suskind: With extraordinary minutes passing he earned a sort of grudging respect from interrogators. The thing they did with Mohammed is that we had captured his children, a boy and a girl, age 7 and 9. And at the darkest moment we threatened grievous injury to his children if he did not cooperate. His response was quite clear: "That's fine. You can do what you want to my children, and they will find a better place with Allah."


Nothing more cowardly than a torturer. Especially one with such little manhood, that they obey unlawful orders.

Yup... BIG BAD TORTURERS, THREATENING CHILDREN....




Termyn8or -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 11:44:27 PM)

I do not attempt to justify anything right now, but as I am seemingly becoming the resident devil's advocate I have this to say.

What if it were your kid ?

What if it were your kid ?

See you after everyone says "Hmmmmmmm".

T



luckydog1 -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/27/2007 11:52:33 PM)

What if my kid had converted to Islam and gone to Pakistan to study Jihad, then got caught by the CIA?  I hardly know where to begin with that one.  Profound failure as a parent springs to mind.



Zensee -> RE: Bush is so full of shit... (12/28/2007 1:29:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Do you have any sort of evidence that people are being tortured for years on end?  I have never even heard this claim made before.  Unless you count simply holding them as torture, which does seem to be the endgame your side is working for.


Well YEAH. Don't you?

And what side do you suppose I am on and what is this end game we are working for? Me and whom else?


Z.



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