RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 3:19:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JackM1

those terrorist groups havent gained control because of the hard work our troops are putting in at the direction of the president.


...prove it.

....thing is, you can't, because we can't wind back time and find out what would have happened if GWB had finished up in Afghanistan instead of cutting and running to Iraq. The logic of the argument i have clipped from your post is exactly the same logic as that in the old joke about elephant deterrant.....can't see any elephants? Then it works. 




Petronius -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 3:24:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

<fast reply>

The CBS story had Bush and Hillary Clinton as the most admired people in America, not the world.


I was wondering how long it would take somebody to actually check the claim and show it for the rightwing bullshit it is.

But there's a certain norm: advertising via bullshit title, as happened here where the study for the U.S. is misrepresented in the thread title as "the world."




seeksfemslave -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 3:41:26 PM)

quote:


Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions - the vast majority of them Muslims.
According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."
Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered.
Allegations of prostitution used to intimidate opponents of the regime, have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women.
Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.
Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. o The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.
Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions.


Farglebagle asked earlier  for info on how many people Saddam killed.
NG says we want to impose our values on Iraqui's "English pills"

Ooogh err yes dont forget to add the millions killed after Saddam invaded Iran.




farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 3:45:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JackM1

firstly; people seriously admire that bitch hillary?


As much as people admire the retard, Bush.

quote:


as for bush...suppose that more people were smart enough to understand what he was doing,


He completely MISSED the 1200 year old conflict between Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. People are plenty smart enough to understand that BUSH doesn't KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING.

quote:


you know...liberating a country


Neglecting the little fact that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to "liberate a country" without a Declaration of War....

How many people died under Hussein, to keep the Country under control?

How many people died under Bush, after he destroyed the mechanisms which kept the Country under control?

And are you suggesting the People of Iraq aren't ADVANCED ENOUGH to have liberated themselves, if they wanted to?

quote:


also dont forget, that these people were thought to be harboring the leader of the terrorist group which had organized an attack on our country.


No they weren't. That was what we technically call a Lie. In fact, given that it's purpose was to influence Congress' deliberations, that LIE rises to the level of a FELONY under 18 USC 371.

quote:


IMO, bush was and is doing what he feels is best for our country.


Too bad what Bush FEELS is best for our country is a felony. I wonder how much input the "Imaginary Voices" he claims to hear have had?





farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 3:49:07 PM)

quote:


Farglebagle asked earlier asked for info on how many people Saddam killed.


I *also* asked how many people Bush as killed. The numbers for Hussein are meaningless otherwise.

Now, the John Hopkins/MIT Study from over a year ago had a range of 300,000 - 900,000 dead. That was A YEAR AGO.

Is it reasonable to use the number of A MILLION DEAD for Bush, a year later?

Do we need to divide by # of years ruling to obtain a metric of the annual deaths?

Bush's occupation causes 250,000 dead a year? What was that number for Hussein's casualties in maintaining Civil Order in Iraq again, and how many years was Hussein in power?







seeksfemslave -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 3:56:57 PM)

Come off it Farglebargle, you know as well as I do that American troops have NOT killed anything like that number.
You seem to have this blind hatred for GWB and it distorts your perception.
 




Estring -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 4:02:20 PM)

He is using the old trick of "tell a lie long enough, and it will become the truth". Those numbers he has thrown out there have been refuted by any sane source long ago.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 4:16:40 PM)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2a1lx_saddams-regime_politics

Farglebargle: a US govnt clip describing the excesses of the Saddam regime.
Note the first lady speaker is describing what happened to her cousin after a minor criticism of Saddam.

Since you are pathologically anti GWB and have, along with Sinergy, posted vicious personal criticism of him and also  you in particlar equate GWB and Saddam can you explain why you have not at least been visited by the secret police ?




caitlyn -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 4:38:48 PM)

The mission, was to lower American casualties, promote greater stability, lower the influx of munitions from Iran, and speed the transition of day-to-day military operations, to Iraqi forces.
 
You and Petronius have set your own benchmarks, so I think it's more accurate to say that the surge isn't accomplishing what you want it to accomplish.
 
We are on the same side though ... I would like to see us out by Christmas 2007. [;)] Doesn't change facts though ... the surge is probably the single thing done right, in this entire fouled up affair.




NorthernGent -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 4:42:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Since you are pathologically anti GWB and have, along with Sinergy, posted vicious personal criticism of him and also  you in particlar equate GWB and Saddam can you explain why you have not at least been visited by the secret police ?



That's not the point though, is it.

Of course countries such as England, the United States, Germany etc have a level of political freedom of which other countries can only aspire, but the sum has to amount to more than measuring yourself against Saddam Hussein, surely, you must have more admirable aspirations.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 4:53:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Since you are pathologically anti GWB and have, along with Sinergy, posted vicious personal criticism of him and also  you in particlar equate GWB and Saddam can you explain why you have not at least been visited by the secret police ?

That's not the point though, is it.
Of course countries such as England, the United States, Germany etc have a level of political freedom of which other countries can only aspire, but the sum has to amount to more than measuring yourself against Saddam Hussein, surely, you must have more admirable aspirations.

I say again Farglebargle does not compare in any sensible way
he equates, ie his somewhat odd one track mind finds equality.
 
He is just bloodie wrong NO?




farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:27:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Come off it Farglebargle, you know as well as I do that American troops have NOT killed anything like that number.
You seem to have this blind hatred for GWB and it distorts your perception.
 


I never said it was the TROOPS who killed everyone dead in Iraq since Bush took ownership of it.

But the deaths happened on the US's watch. So, to continue our exploration...

We've established, for discussion, the number of Dead Iraqis on Bush's Watch to be a million over 4 years, or 250,000 a year, with unrestrained sectarian and ethnic cleansing, 4 million refugees, etc...

Now, to compare this with Hussein, who ruled from 1979 to 2003 ( 24 years )

Now, perusing the internet, I come to this site, citing the number of 1 million dead Iraqis during Hussein's 24 years...

http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsundersaddamhussein42503.html

So... 1,000,000/24 = 41,000 a year....

Hmmm.. Hussein MAINTAINED ORDER, and killed a third of the people doing it as the unrestrained sectarian and ethnic cleansing under Bush...







farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

He is using the old trick of "tell a lie long enough, and it will become the truth". Those numbers he has thrown out there have been refuted by any sane source long ago.


Yeah, YOU keep telling the lie that the Johns Hopkins/MIT study is bullshit, and people will believe it...

So, where's your refutation? Are you going to cite IraqBodyCount.org? You do know their expertiese exists in only perusing the newspapers and the internet for reports to compile, and not actually conducting surveys?

So, discounting IBC.ORG, you got any other credible evidence that the numbers aren't reasonable?




farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:34:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
in particlar equate GWB and Saddam can you explain why you have not at least been visited by the secret police ?


you cannot equate Bush and Hussein. Hussein was effective in maintaining order. Bush has not been effective in maintaining order.

With the tapping of our phones and internet usage, and the no-fly lists, do they really need to be sending around the secret police? It's so much easier to leave us out in the wild, and map our social networks... Well, it's more PROFITABLE, at least...





Politesub53 -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:35:24 PM)

FB....... Your figures dont include the 8 million for invading Iran, or howver many for invading Kuwait.... By your own test, if you include all figures on GWB`s watch, then surely you need to include the figures i have given you too ?




farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:37:55 PM)

I didn't include them, because they are not DOMESTIC DEATHS related to the maintenance or lack or INTERNAL ORDER.

Given that Iraq hasn't (yet) gone to war, since America took responsibility, I don't think it's useful to include those numbers in the metric... But, of course, once Bush starts racking up EXTERNAL DEATHS due to Iraq's Foreign Policy, then we can surely add a column for that.

Remember my original question: "How many Iraqis did Hussein kill maintaining order vs How many died since Bush took responsibility due to the LACK of order"...





Politesub53 -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:42:33 PM)

Im not sure about the 8 million casualty figure either.... i will try and find out where i read it tomorrow.


Point taken about your original question




farglebargle -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 5:51:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The mission, was to lower American casualties, promote greater stability, lower the influx of munitions from Iran, and speed the transition of day-to-day military operations, to Iraqi forces.


Wrong.

Under Public Law 110-28, the benchmarks were:

1. Forming a Constitutional Review Committee and then completing the constitutional review.
2. Enacting and implementing legislation on de-Ba’athification.
3. Enacting and implementing legislation to ensure the equitable distribution of hydrocarbon resources of the people of Iraq without regard to the sect or ethnicity of recipients, and enacting and implementing legislation to ensure that the energy resources of Iraq benefit Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, Kurds, and other Iraqi citizens in an equitable manner.
4. Enacting and implementing legislation on procedures to form semi-autonomous regions.
5. Enacting and implementing legislation establishing an Independent High Electoral Commission, provincial elections law, provincial council authorities, and a date for provincial elections.
6. Enacting and implementing legislation addressing amnesty.
7. Enacting and implementing legislation establishing a strong militia disarmament program to ensure that such security forces are
accountable only to the central government and loyal to the Constitution of Iraq.
8. Establishing supporting political, media, economic, and services committees in support of the Baghdad security plan.
9. Providing three trained and ready Iraqi brigades to support Baghdad operations.
10. Providing Iraqi commanders with all authorities to execute this plan and to make tactical and operational decisions, in consultation with U.S.
commanders, without political intervention, to include the authority to pursue all extremists, including Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias.
11. Ensuring that the Iraqi security forces are providing even-handed enforcement of the law.
12. Ensuring that, according to President Bush, Prime Minister Maliki said ‘‘the Baghdad security plan will not provide a safe haven for
any outlaws, regardless of [their] sectarian or political affiliation.’’
13. Reducing the level of sectarian violence in Iraq and eliminating militia control of local security.
14. Establishing all of the planned joint security stations in neighborhoods across Baghdad.
15. Increasing the number of Iraqi security forces’ units capable of operating independently.
16. Ensuring that the rights of minority political parties in the Iraqi legislature are protected.
17. Allocating and spending $10 billion in Iraqi revenues for reconstruction projects, including delivery of essential services, on an equitable basis.
18. Ensuring that Iraq’s political authorities are not undermining or making false accusations against members of the Iraqi security forces.

quote:


You and Petronius have set your own benchmarks


CONGRESS makes the Law.

They are the benchmarks set in US LAW.

If you're going to participate in this discussion, shouldn't you *ALREADY* know this?





girlygurl -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 6:19:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

According to a Gallup Poll.

Video.

Firm



Well, Gallup sure as heck didn't ask me [:D]   He's probably blowin Gallup!  argh!

girly




juliaoceania -> RE: Most Admired Man in World 2007: GW Bush (12/29/2007 7:28:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petronius

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

<fast reply>

The CBS story had Bush and Hillary Clinton as the most admired people in America, not the world.


I was wondering how long it would take somebody to actually check the claim and show it for the rightwing bullshit it is.

But there's a certain norm: advertising via bullshit title, as happened here where the study for the U.S. is misrepresented in the thread title as "the world."



Page one my response to LadyEllen noted this[;)]




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