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Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 3:39:26 PM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Now I know that all the lovely ladies in Ask a Mistress are near perfect, but do you have any words of wisdom from your collective centuries of experience what can really crash a scene badly?

And what one might do when it has all gone horribly pear shaped?

A (romantic fool) friend of mine saw a pro-domme and was having a great time until he looked into her beautiful eyes and whispered "may I kiss you"?  She spat in his face.  He left in a huff and never went back. 

I laughed (coz I am mean), but he was truly disgusted and upset.  He did not see the funny side that other subs would love being spat on!

Surely anyone can make an innocent mistake of judgment.....so how do you salvage a scene from the "total turn off" mistake?

< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 12/27/2007 3:43:30 PM >

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 3:45:59 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		How do you salvage it?  Be with someone you trust that can laugh with you and/or help you turn it around.  I can think of at least five times in the last six months where my partner and I laughed our asses off at things that happened that were not at all meant to happen in a scene and not all of them were funny.  The fact that we're both able to laugh and have the ability to make fun of even ourselves together made what could have been a bad feeling into humor and the laughter itself is a turn-on.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/27/2007 4:00:44 PM >

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 3:57:57 PM   
LadyLupineNYC


Posts: 618
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline 		*shrugges* I might have done the same thing- either as a Pro or when playing (and most certainly with my slave) or might have laughed.  "kissed"??  seriously...I don't really much care for kissing men I DO like, let alone strangers.   She could have always said something like "...of sure...I think my herpes outbreak is just about over" see how he likes THAT   {yes, yes...spit has bugs too...don't ruin my good joke with your snarky logic!}

As for the actually point of your question...I am sorry, but he needs to removes the stick...that was a great response (IMHO), presumptive on his part that it was something she would WANT, and taking the fun out of living a fantasy out...

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 4:45:55 PM   
PanthersMom


Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		he expected her to allow him to kiss her?  most of the pros i know of would have stated up front that was not permitted. 
salvaging a scene is mainly about the partners involved, can they roll with the punches and laugh about it or do they have a strict fantasy plan and refuse to budge from their plan of action.  i have kids, "roll with it" is necessary around here.

PM

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 5:02:40 PM   
LadyLegs


Posts: 176
Status: offline 		That'll teach him to keep his romantic notions on hold, won't it? 

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 8:02:13 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I would have let him kiss the sole of my boot, maybe!  That domme had the right idea, and he needs to get over himself!



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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 8:09:25 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Spitting is a limit for some people. It is also possible that his response was driven more by the context of spitting than spitting in itself. In any case, if the spitting was done as part of a scene, it turned out to be a miscue.

If the spitting was done because she was offended by the question, there is room to discuss how appropriate or not the act was based on more information that defines the overall context. I think there are more graceful ways to handle the situation if she felt a boundary was crossed. I think it is more likely that the spitting was done as part of a scene.

When a miscue occurs, I think a scene should be stopped. While details for what occurs next may vary based on situation and people, I think the core of what occurs needs to be similar to what might be done to correct a miscue in any social relationship.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 8:09:52 PM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		The wrecks I've had:

1) Tripping on a rug and landing on my ass.  The sub couldn't help, as he was blindfolded and tied to the cross.  After cursing and making sure I didn't break an ankle, I sat on the floor laughing.  I stood up, and the scene went on.  He was more worried than I was.

2) Guy fairly new to me goes catatonic during some bondage/physical play.  This was not subspace, this was 'land of the lost', like the lights are on and no one is home sort of out there.  It also was not drugs -- he'd just come in off the field from military maneuvers.  All of his vital signs were normal aside from his heart rate being slightly elevated from his normal of 50.  I left the restraints in place out of concern for him coming up out of whatever this was violently.  After talking to him for what to me seemed to be an eternity, he snapped out of it.  As it turns out, he was in a special forces military operation back in the 90s and had a very bad incident where they were pinned down under gunfire and trapped in their disabled vehicle for hours.  Somehow, just the act of pinning him down and restraining him combined with his head not being totally cleared of "work", he went to that hidden catacomb in his mind for the first time "ever" since the incident.  He later said that I was right to leave the restraints on him or anyone who goes into another place in their head for my own safety.  We played on a number of occasions after that without incident.

3) Pro session back in the mid 90s, first time I'd seen the gentleman.  He came in for a spanking session.  He'd been to a pro before and I know who he'd seen, indicating to me that he was into light/sensual play.  The last time he'd played was 1 year prior.  We were about half-way through the very benign, light session when he started to shake and sob out of nowhere, and it was apparent that it was not specifically attached to the spanking session.  I stopped the SM activity and shifted into caretaker mode -- good tears, bad tears?  "I dunno", and the reply was odd in that it almost didn't sound like the guy I'd interviewed 30some minutes prior.  Twenty minutes of sobbing and crying passed.  He finally calmed down and was able to speak with me on what he was experiencing.  He shared with me that he didn't understand his desires until just now, apparently having repressed the fact that his aunt had spanked him and sexually abused him when he was a young boy.  Of course, this is all subjective -- he could have been lying but I don't think so -- this was very raw and real to him.  We talked about him getting some professional help, or at least talking to his physician about keeping an eye on him.  I referred him to a kink friendly therapist who I knew locally at the time.  He was a-ok when he left, and grateful for having had someone who was sensitive to his emotional break taking care of him.

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/27/2007 11:02:58 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Being in the same situation, I probably would have left myself due to an extreme turn-off. But then, I'm also a bit of a romantic.

If that was their first session together, it seems to me that her response to his seemingly innocent question was more than a bit heavy-handed.

Could she have managed to save the day with some quick thinking? It doesn't seem too likely. 

My guess is that those two would have benefited from a longer pre-session interview together. Isn't it in the pro's best interest to know her client, and also lay specific ground rules? Perhaps it would be an easier strategy to avoid making such mistakes as opposed to focusing on how to correct them.

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 4:46:17 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
When a miscue occurs, I think a scene should be stopped.


To add to this thought, I think whether or not to stop a scene upon a miscue relies on exercising good judgment.

Accidentally stepping on the foot of a bound sub, or some other situation that can be laughed off can likely be withstood. I think a situation that requires immediate attention (a miscue that has caused injury) or one that has disrupted the emotional state of either party towards the scene should be stopped at least temporarily.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 5:05:03 AM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks all

I think my illustrative example has distracted some from the question!

As for spitting, the pro-domme had truly revolted her client, so he never went back to Salon Kitty's (probably Australia's best commercial dungeon).  It would have been much smarter (and fun) to snicker "kiss me?  You would be lucky to kiss my boot....and you haven't earned that privilege".

Point is: the House lost a lucrative and otherwise happy client over one rather aggressive and unhygienic incident. 

I like the "longer negotiation" idea, but can you negotiate everything in advance?    Sometimes I feel excessive pre-negotiation ruins all sponteneity and surprise.  Where is the room for a Domme's creativity if given a long shopping list of do's and don'ts by the sub?

My scene wrecks have been of two kinds.

1)  Doing humiliation that I have every reason to believe will be good fun, but the sub gets sullen, resistent, then sulky and/or angry. Stop? Salvage? (Please do not preach that "real" subs never react badly and therefore I should replace my sub - I am talking about real life mishaps, not erotic fantasies where everyone is perfect). 

2)  Something unexpected happens I don't like and I am no longer in the mood.  Mid-scene.  The "high" of dominating deflates and the rest of the scene is a chore.  Take a short break? Stop cold?  Gracefully wind up and move to aftercare? 



< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 12/28/2007 5:11:39 AM >

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 5:11:08 AM   
LadyLupineNYC


Posts: 618
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

My guess is that those two would have benefited from a longer pre-session interview together. Isn't it in the pro's best interest to know her client, and also lay specific ground rules? Perhaps it would be an easier strategy to avoid making such mistakes as opposed to focusing on how to correct them.



Ideally yes. While I cannot speak for what this particular guy is like, most clients walk in with their cocking their hand and in no real position to speak.  As I was telling someone last night, many times you are standing there thinking “ok…does he want me to dress him up and call him Susie or beat his ass bloody?” At the end of the day, ProDommes often have to be very quick readers of people and very good at improv…   

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 5:28:58 AM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks MisPandora

My worst, worst fear is unwittingly surfacing repressed memories/emotions from victims of child abuse.  I have had male subs break down and wail and the first few times was extremely disconcerting.  You are probably more patient and compassionate than me.  I avoid playing with them again.


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<----- Corset, mask and collar designed and manufactured by metalsmith Karl H, chromed and lined in black suede. Masks and collars available from http://www.lucreziadesade.com.au/default.html. Corsets custom made only

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 5:34:35 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne
I like the "longer negotiation" idea, but can you negotiate everything in advance?    Sometimes I feel excessive pre-negotiation ruins all sponteneity and surprise.  Where is the room for a Domme's creativity if given a long shopping list of do's and don'ts by the sub?


I also appreciate spontaneity and surprise and only enter detailed negotiations if prompted by a domme. I usually discuss forms of submission I enjoy in general terms. Often pre-play questions are focused on what specific activities one likes. I think it is more important to focus on what one does not like--doing so defines boundaries within which one can exercise creativity. I think it is also helpful to probe why one does not like a given activity. Knowing the underlying reason might allow one to identify what other activities to avoid. On that note, knowing the underlying reason for activities that are thought to be hot give similar insights in the other direction.

Also, for activities that have not been discussed but are known to be more common amongst limits (face play), one could try a test approach. For example, instead of spitting, one could make reference to spitting on a face, directly (eg. I am this close to spitting on your face but I don't want to insult my spit) or indirectly (I was co-topping and the other domme did X), or act as if about to do it (getting in front of his face and letting him see that spit is being gathered in the mouth), and look for a response--did the eyes widen with anticipation or was there a different response. If there is a positive response, waiting until later in the scene might bring more of a surprise.

For the example in the OP, I wonder if the man would respond similarly if he was spat on without having asked the question--that would clarify how much he was squicked and how much he felt offended by the response to his question.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 12/28/2007 5:43:19 AM >

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 5:37:49 AM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		He thought spitting was gross and disgusting and therefore, so was she. 

I think the total turn off was disconnected from the question, but it does support his argument that the context was not a heavy humilation scene, it was bondage.

< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 12/28/2007 5:39:12 AM >

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 8:01:10 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
... I think it is more important to focus on what one does not like--doing so defines boundaries within which one can exercise creativity. I think it is also helpful to probe why one does not like a given activity. Knowing the underlying reason might allow one to identify what other activities to avoid. On that note, knowing the underlying reason for activities that are thought to be hot give similar insights in the other direction...



Bingo

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/28/2007 9:44:57 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with your take on the situation, MsC.  I am a firm believer in having contingency plans
for such situations that are appropriate to the persons involved. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

As for spitting, the pro-domme had truly revolted her client, so he never went back to Salon Kitty's (probably Australia's best commercial dungeon).  It would have been much smarter (and fun) to snicker "kiss me?  You would be lucky to kiss my boot....and you haven't earned that privilege".



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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/29/2007 1:09:26 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I agree MsC that this was an overly aggressive response to a question a sub could easily ask while in the throes of glorious subspace! I would have answered it verbally, and being such a kind soul as I am, probably with some allowance for his feelings ... "Yes, you may kiss My shoe/foot", "Yes, you may kiss My hand" or if I felt right about it, "Yes, you may kiss My cheek". Unlikely to do mouth-kissing in that situation ... and he may not have been meaning a full-blooded pash on the lips either! I wouldn't get snarky unless he did ... for example, if he responded to one of My suggestions with the assertion that My foot/hand/cheek wouldn't do, then I would respond much more firmly that he was lucky to get that offer and it was fast being rescinded! But then, I am not into the whole humiliation side of things and I don't tend to play with subs who like or want that. And My Mum told Me only camels spit LOL!

In terms of salvaging wrecks ...

1. My very first real life sub froze when asked to remove his underwear ... I was temporarily mortified "Great, I have a sub and I can't even get him naked!" Thinking very quickly and realising from his panic-stricken face that this was no game-playing on his part, I called him over to kneel and do some foot and leg worship instead. he looked intensely relieved and after a few minutes had clearly relaxed, whereupon I hooked My thumbs into the waistband and suggested he no longer needed those ... and he complied readily. Later I asked what the problem was. "i wasn't yet hard Mistress!" came the anguished reply! To which I replied that I hadn't expected him to get a raging erection as soon as he walked in and I really enjoy watching one develop. All was well in future ... and he thanked Me for the sensitive way I had dealt with it. If I had insisted ... he would have fled! And I'd have missed out on a lot of fun.

2. The local Dungeon used to run "crash test dummies" nights for new subbies to come along and safely experience some bdsm play with appropriate Dom/mes. I had played a couple of times with a boy whom I liked and related well to, and I put a lot of time and effort into preparing for a puppy play scene which I knew he'd like. That was pretty much all I took with Me that night ... so I was thrown a curve ball when he was assigned to someone else and I got a girl I didn't know very well! Thinking back, I probably should have changed tack ... but I spoke to her about My overall plan and she seemed OK with it. However, it crashed and burned and I ended it early and just talked. Firstly she was slightly desperate for experience at the time and didn't want to say no ... and secondly, she's never owned a dog LOL! So she had no idea how they respond ... therefore the whole thing died a horrible death! W/we BOTH learned a lot that night ... Me not to assume things, and she to be open and honest! I'm glad to say W/we went on to be friends and I did play with her much more successfully later ... and now She has become full time Domme to a lovely boy (whom She had the good sense to marry) ... they are still My friends. PS I am also still friends with the lovely boy even though he now lives half a world away. he never did get to be My puppy though I played with him many times later.

3. The only one I tried but didn't really succeed at the time with was with an older male sub. Yes he was overweight ... that in itself didn't discount him ... and he came along to a working bee setting up My Dungeon and was quite helpful. However, when he turned up for his first play session and stripped off ... I was horrified when I saw his skin. It was in really bad condition, extremely fragile ... and there was just no way I was going to hit that with anything, nor was I game to use wax or ropes or pretty much anything on it. Which pretty much nullified the play W/we had discussed. I tried to be tactful about it whilst also pointing out that maybe he had been less than forthcoming ... he was very hurt and then tried a move that quickly got him removed ... blackmail! Along the lines of "but I came and helped out ... therefore you OWE me ..." Sorry, no way! I don't owe it to anyone to do something that defies My sense of sanity and due care! he stomped off very upset ... but 2 days later phoned and left a conciliatory message to say he had thought it over and yes, I was right and he was sorry. And was I interested in him as a sexual service sub? "Umm ... no!"

It's not easy being a Domme ... it means a lot of very quick thinking and continual assessing of someone's physical and emotional state ... yes We are going to make mistakes sometimes ... some, like tripping over, can be laughed off if there is no major damage done, but others are a bit trickier to handle.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]


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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/29/2007 7:31:39 PM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

Thanks MisPandora

My worst, worst fear is unwittingly surfacing repressed memories/emotions from victims of child abuse.  I have had male subs break down and wail and the first few times was extremely disconcerting.  You are probably more patient and compassionate than me.  I avoid playing with them again.


Having had a boy in service to me who had been previously raped as a young child by his much older brother, I'm all too familiar with the landmines involved.  I don't think that I'd have gotten involved with him knowing his history had I not have experienced and managed the previous spontaneous incidents (or if he were not continuously in therapy.)

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RE: Scene wrecks - 12/30/2007 8:29:09 PM   
AllietheKitten


Posts: 115
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		1) Doing humiliation that I have every reason to believe will be good fun, but the sub gets sullen, resistent, then sulky and/or angry. Stop? Salvage? (Please do not preach that "real" subs never react badly and therefore I should replace my sub - I am talking about real life mishaps, not erotic fantasies where everyone is perfect).

2) Something unexpected happens I don't like and I am no longer in the mood. Mid-scene. The "high" of dominating deflates and the rest of the scene is a chore. Take a short break? Stop cold? Gracefully wind up and move to aftercare?

In scenario one, I would probably pull back or try a different tack. It may be the specific humiliation is triggering something, whereas some other humiliating wouldn't. I think the scene could probably be salvaged if the behaviour is noticed in time. However, after a certain point, resistance will destroy a scene because the sub is not longer in the moment-they are in their head and not in good emotional space (I am constantly working to get my sub out of his head/logical thinking and into purely sensual space).

During the second scenario-I would try pushing through it at first (to me, Domming is always a lot of work at first but I find I warm up more and more as I go on). However, after a few minutes if it became clear I didn't really want to do it I would slowly ease off and move into after care. I wouldn't stop cold, as this would make the sub feel like they have done something wrong (subs are often in a highly emotional state and think a lot of illogical things during the scene and fear of rejection is a fear most people share).

The last time a scene went wrong for me--my boy is really into bondage and fantasy, so I thought it would be fun to tie him up in the back of the car and pretend to kidnap him. I get him into the back seat, tie his feet together and tie his hands to the handgrips in the back seat. We get on the road and I think it would be fun to stop and get gas. My back windows are tinted but he doesn't know that and I wanted to stress him out a little with the possibility of public exposure (one of his soft limits). So I get out and get gas and when I get back into the car he is kind of singing to himself in this weird high-pitched voice. I think "OK, he's stressed because he think people can see him but one we get on the road everything will be fine." I start driving but after two blocks its clear that everything is not fine.
I pull over into a parking lot and jump into the back and untie him (I leave the rope cuffs on though, so he still has the comfort of bondage but isn't actually tied to anything). Its only after I get him loose that he begins to cling to me and cry. I hold him and ask him what was wrong. He tells me he was scared that we would get into a car accident and his hands would be amputated!
On a logical level he knew this made no sense but he was in such a deeply emotional place that he couldn't help his reaction and if I hadn't caught him in time he would have really freaked out.

No one can predict what a sub's triggers will be (often they don't even know until the moment it happens and they go into a bad emotional place). The only thing we as Dommes can do is to watch and notice when things go wrong and then catch them when they fall.

(in reply to MisPandora)
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