RE: On Clingy Submissives

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mnottertail -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/28/2007 11:33:41 PM)
would yo see your way clear if it was dependance? Or is that two big a too step? Curiously, Jus' me.

CreativeDominant -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 7:52:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth *~ Fast Reply ~* I'm a bit surprised that there is a general negative reaction to being "clingy". It's also eye raising to see the characteristic applied only to the submissive side of the flogger. I represent I am a clingy dominant. Within my relationship I am a VERY clingy Master. Why is that a bad thing? Should I be in a 12 step program? I don't find being clingy excludes me from being confident or unable to function alone. I wouldn't want to be around a submissive and surely wouldn't take on a slave unless they had similar confidence and had equal strength and personal self worth. However being together with beth is a preferred state. Shouldn't everyone seeking a broad relationship of some permanence which is inclusive of conversation and activities that don't necessary include/involve/require nudity, or the props of WIITWD, have a similar preference? Is wanting to share conversation and social interaction considered clingy? Let's not try to define healthy and un-healthy because that becomes an exercises in applying pronouns - "My relationship and interaction is healthy, your's is 'clingy'." Not going there! If there is an unhealthy aspect it's when self delusion is involved. It is unhealthy if one side of the partnership has unrealistic expectations for the relationship. Similarly expecting success in changing the nature of their partner is an unhealthy expectation. Then there is the unhealthy situation of staying in a relationship full of compromise and rationalization because ultimately you don't like being alone. If you don't like yourself you may cling to someone. Having your sense of value and worth only derived from a relationship may cause you to cling. Should you lack confidence in yourself you can cling to the perceived confidence in another. Lacking a personal identity you can cling to a collective relationship identity. I don't think these situations exist only for submissives. I've observed dominants exhibiting exactly the same rationalized logic to cling to partner; having and fearing similar conditions and results. Knowing yourself, and ideally, liking yourself is a good foundation and starting point for the goal of a healthy partnership of "cling". That is beautiful ... I am clingy and to some extent always will be ... When I was unwell this clinginess became unhealthy yet I do not believe that clingy has to be unhealthy ... like all things in life moderation is the key. You can walk away from the one you so desparately "need" and for some strange reason the world just keeps turning on its axis, the sun comes up each day and the birds keep singing ... life goes on and even though you may be desparately unhappy at first, time is a good healer and I believe that you can find happiness again. "For me" ... someone in a relationship with me should not just be wanted, it should grow into a very intimate need, their importance should grow with the relationship, idealy they should become a major cornerstone in my life. All things are subjective ... they take on different meanings dependant on who, where, when and the individual experences of the people involved. I am complete as I am now, my life is good and I enjoy it, yet I am complete as one person, involved in all sorts of relationships, family, friends and work. It is different to being in a relationship with someone intimately where you are no longer "one" but "two" (or more in poly) ... there is for me a "need" to feel complete with the sig. other, I regognise this as a dependance on the other and I see it as healthy, a natural growth of the relationship and think in their own way my partner would require His/Her needs to be filled by me for their own completion. If this is clingy than more power to it, I for one embrace it and look forward to experiencing it again in the future. I do not need him like oxygen because I will survive without him ... but to some extent the air is staler and life is not as sweet without him. just my 2 cents worth and again Mercnbeth you are beautiful and inspire so much joy in the unknown future.

CreativeDominant -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 7:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth *~ Fast Reply ~* I'm a bit surprised that there is a general negative reaction to being "clingy". It's also eye raising to see the characteristic applied only to the submissive side of the flogger. I represent I am a clingy dominant. Within my relationship I am a VERY clingy Master. Why is that a bad thing? Should I be in a 12 step program? I don't find being clingy excludes me from being confident or unable to function alone. I wouldn't want to be around a submissive and surely wouldn't take on a slave unless they had similar confidence and had equal strength and personal self worth. However being together with beth is a preferred state. Shouldn't everyone seeking a broad relationship of some permanence which is inclusive of conversation and activities that don't necessary include/involve/require nudity, or the props of WIITWD, have a similar preference? Is wanting to share conversation and social interaction considered clingy? Let's not try to define healthy and un-healthy because that becomes an exercises in applying pronouns - "My relationship and interaction is healthy, your's is 'clingy'." Not going there! If there is an unhealthy aspect it's when self delusion is involved. It is unhealthy if one side of the partnership has unrealistic expectations for the relationship. Similarly expecting success in changing the nature of their partner is an unhealthy expectation. Then there is the unhealthy situation of staying in a relationship full of compromise and rationalization because ultimately you don't like being alone. If you don't like yourself you may cling to someone. Having your sense of value and worth only derived from a relationship may cause you to cling. Should you lack confidence in yourself you can cling to the perceived confidence in another. Lacking a personal identity you can cling to a collective relationship identity. I don't think these situations exist only for submissives. I've observed dominants exhibiting exactly the same rationalized logic to cling to partner; having and fearing similar conditions and results. Knowing yourself, and ideally, liking yourself is a good foundation and starting point for the goal of a healthy partnership of "cling". That is beautiful ... I am clingy and to some extent always will be ... When I was unwell this clinginess became unhealthy yet I do not believe that clingy has to be unhealthy ... like all things in life moderation is the key. You can walk away from the one you so desparately "need" and for some strange reason the world just keeps turning on its axis, the sun comes up each day and the birds keep singing ... life goes on and even though you may be desparately unhappy at first, time is a good healer and I believe that you can find happiness again. "For me" ... someone in a relationship with me should not just be wanted, it should grow into a very intimate need, their importance should grow with the relationship, idealy they should become a major cornerstone in my life. All things are subjective ... they take on different meanings dependant on who, where, when and the individual experences of the people involved. I am complete as I am now, my life is good and I enjoy it, yet I am complete as one person, involved in all sorts of relationships, family, friends and work. It is different to being in a relationship with someone intimately where you are no longer "one" but "two" (or more in poly) ... there is for me a "need" to feel complete with the sig. other, I regognise this as a dependance on the other and I see it as healthy, a natural growth of the relationship and think in their own way my partner would require His/Her needs to be filled by me for their own completion. If this is clingy than more power to it, I for one embrace it and look forward to experiencing it again in the future. I do not need him like oxygen because I will survive without him ... but to some extent the air is staler and life is not as sweet without him. just my 2 cents worth and again Mercnbeth you are beautiful and inspire so much joy in the unknown future. I think Merc did an excellent job of expressing the other side of the whip that I spoke of...I will freely admit to being open enough emotionally to express my need for the partner in my life. Part of the problem with that has been sometimes choosing partners who went overboard on the "cling" (see my previous post) or who did not seem to need me at all. They may have...but their inability to express their emotional feelings in any way other than a basic fashion left me feeling a bit...hungry. When asked about it, the standard answer was "if I did not enjoy you, want you, need you, like you...I would not be dealing with you at all. I believe that actions are stronger than words". While I believe that is true in many cases and that, for some, that works very well...I also do not believe I am alone when I say that it is nice to HEAR the WORDS once in awhile. Rather ironic given that one of the complaints often brought up by women against their male partners is that "they never tell me how they feel". What I try to do is achieve a balance from MY end and let my potential partners know that I expect to hear something from them in regards to how they feel about me on occasion.

DesFIP -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:04:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie While I agree that sometimes the descriptors used might accurately describe some people, I think they are used as descriptors far too often and for the wrong reasons. I have had people like that in my life, and I have been that way to other people in my past, so I believe the "leeching" trait can apply to the words in some cases. I don't think it applies nearly as often as the words are flung around here, though. But if you had the same level of need for them as they had for you, would you still describe them as "leeching"? I put up walls around myself after my marriage turned bad because that was necessary in order to heal, and protect myself during that healing. However I saw afterwards that by keeping those walls up I not only kept others out, I also locked myself in. As long as I protected myself emotionally, I couldn't submit fully because for us, the basis of wiitwd is emotional transparency and I was hiding my emotions, not sharing them, because of fear. Eventually I had to get over the fear and take the risk as without it, I wouldn't have gained what I now have. There are good reasons why, having fallen off a horse, you are immediately told to get back on it. To conquer the fear.

sweetstorm -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:20:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP There are good reasons why, having fallen off a horse, you are immediately told to get back on it. To conquer the fear. And it seems to get more difficult with time, if you don't get back on that horse right away. The longer you leave it to fester, keeping those feelings inside, the harder it is to open the door and let them out.

sunshinemiss -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:33:43 AM)
Clingy is about fear I believe - the fear of loss - the loss of comfort, connection, position, attraction... something. It is different from interdependence.... Interdependence is about each one needing the other - ying and yang if you will. BDSM tends to encourage interdependence - two puzzle pieces being put together to become stronger because they are together. Desperation tends to encourage clinginess. imho. peace

juliaoceania -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:49:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Clingy is about fear I believe - the fear of loss - the loss of comfort, connection, position, attraction... something. It is different from interdependence.... Interdependence is about each one needing the other - ying and yang if you will. BDSM tends to encourage interdependence - two puzzle pieces being put together to become stronger because they are together. Desperation tends to encourage clinginess. imho. peace I would say that D/s is just what it is, and the way a dominant structures the relationship is what determines whether it is codependent or interdependent. D/s in and of itself does not determine this. I would also say that most people have times in their lives when they feel "clingy", fearful, or insecure.... it is not those feelings that make the relationship codependent, it is what the people in the relationship do about those feelings that count. It is also how often these feelings come up that determine how unhealthy they are, and the satisfaction within the relationship. Celeste has said over and over again that she needed to find the yin to her yang, and she did so. It is really the individual that has to determine whether or not their feelings are unhealthy for them, or if they need a new relationship with someone that fills their needs. For once I agree completely with Merc... what people find healthy or unhealthy when it comes to this doesn't really matter. If a clingy person finds a partner that wants them to cling, and they are happy with that...Im not judging that. I have days that I am working, busy with stuff, and so is he... we may never talk during that day (which is very rare, but it has happened). I know I am not a clingy person. I do not for the most part get anxious when I am not being given attention to... but that does not mean I never feel as though I am "needy" or "clingy"... at times I do, and I have accepted that about myself, I am happy with our relationship because I feel safe to communicate that. We all talk endlessly about "communication" being the key. In my opinion it is pretty hard to have open, trusting communication if one person feels they can never be perceived as "needy" or "clingy"... because most of us do have those feelings regardless of gender or role... just my opinion too

KatyLied -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:50:35 AM)
quote: Clingy is about fear I believe - the fear of loss - the loss of comfort, connection, position, attraction... something. I completely agree, I think clingy is all about fear of abandonment. I think it is dysfunctional behavior. If I even think I'm going near that sort of thing I will do stuff to distract and distance myself. I see it as very unattractive.

cherrypez -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:51:28 AM)
I don't agree that the nature of submission is emotional dependancy. Emotional attachment as one stated might be more accurate. Maybe I am a realist but I can not see myself as being so dependant on someone that I can not function normally without them. People grow in different directions sometimes, people die---of course I'd feel sadness if a person was no longer in my life but I would not want it to upset my world so severely that I was unable to go on living. Feeling secure in myself and my relationship makes me less clingy.

juliaoceania -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 8:55:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: Clingy is about fear I believe - the fear of loss - the loss of comfort, connection, position, attraction... something. I completely agree, I think clingy is all about fear of abandonment. I think it is dysfunctional behavior. If I even think I'm going near that sort of thing I will do stuff to distract and distance myself. I see it as very unattractive. So instead of communicating that to your partner, and dealing with it, you would rather subliminate it by distraction, and this is healthy? I am just trying to understand...because the fear of abandonment comes from the time when our species was so dependent on each other for survival that abandonment meant certain death... it is a pretty deep seated fear... actually for most of us at the unconscious level abandonment=death. When I began to really understand that was when I accepted the fear of abandonment like I accepted the fear of death, and through acceptance I do not fear it as greatly. It also has helped me express these fears to my SO as normal because he matters to me...just expressing an opposite way of dealing with it.

KatyLied -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 9:00:24 AM)
I do not have a partner, so it's not an issue. Yes, I think it is healthy to distract yourself and find ways of dealing with dysfucntional behavior instead of engaging in it. I would never want to appear whiny or clingy to a partner. I think that is the kiss of death. I'd rather work on being strong and independent, things which I am anyway. Just as it would drive me crazy to be in a relationship with a guy who was clingy and whiny. My reaction would be "whoa, get a life, I'm not your 24/7 entertainment."

chellekitty -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 9:08:34 AM)
i think there is a healthy fear of some things...it keeps us from doing stupid shit...fear of dying...fear of being lonely (which you can be in a room full of people)...what matters is how you deal with it...one person's completely healthy way of dealing with it, may be another person's completely unhealthy way of dealing with it....but that's ok, we're all individuals...and we don't have to live each other's lives....so, i'll trust that julia knows the best way to deal with her fears, and Katy knows the best way to deal with hers, and i know the best way to deal with mine, and everyone else knows the best way to deal with theirs, and if any of us doesn't, we'll ask for some alternative ways and then decide for ourselves, because we're all individuals with individual brains that can decide what is best for ourselves.... take care chelle

OldBastardly1 -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 9:13:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Clingy is about fear I believe - the fear of loss - the loss of comfort, connection, position, attraction... something. It is different from interdependence.... Interdependence is about each one needing the other - ying and yang if you will. BDSM tends to encourage interdependence - two puzzle pieces being put together to become stronger because they are together. Desperation tends to encourage clinginess. imho. peace I have to agree with this. It rings true to me, in my world. I am not saying that this is the only way, but it is my way. This is why it is so hard for people to find the perfect match for them. If 2 people do not fit into each other's world, then they don't fit. Plain and simple. We don't need therapy to address it. We are simply not compatible. I don't care if other people want to instill and practice a ritual like shaving racing stripes across their asses....it just isn't appealing to my tastes. And they are entitled to do things as they prefer as long as they are content and outsiders aren't adversely affected...just as I am. It is just that freaking simple. I am not out to sway everybody to my way of thinking. It doesn't matter if other people think my ways are wrong, any more than they are concerned about my thoughts on their choices. Besides, if we were all the same, who would we laugh at? [sm=mrpuffy.gif]

juliaoceania -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 9:33:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty i think there is a healthy fear of some things...it keeps us from doing stupid shit...fear of dying...fear of being lonely (which you can be in a room full of people)...what matters is how you deal with it...one person's completely healthy way of dealing with it, may be another person's completely unhealthy way of dealing with it....but that's ok, we're all individuals...and we don't have to live each other's lives....so, i'll trust that julia knows the best way to deal with her fears, and Katy knows the best way to deal with hers, and i know the best way to deal with mine, and everyone else knows the best way to deal with theirs, and if any of us doesn't, we'll ask for some alternative ways and then decide for ourselves, because we're all individuals with individual brains that can decide what is best for ourselves.... take care chelle Amen! I would have to agree with katy, if someone was clingy all the time, especially when I just started seeing them, it would be a major turn off. On the other hand, if they had a clingy moment because of a health issue, or something happened to them that they were having trouble with and they wanted to "cling" to me... that to me is part of what a significant relationship is about for me. I am not there just for sunshine time after all, but for the bumps in the road too. It took me a long time to allow myself to show my "clingy" face.... and it is not something I want to do every day for a fact... but knowing that I can show my human weaknesses and I do not have to be strong or independent all the time, and if I cry he will not leave. If I feel "clingy", he will not take that as I am clingy... well I can't say how freeing that has been for me. I get tired of always presenting that independent facade of being "strong". When I feel weak, I want to be able to show it to a person I am safe with. It is not an every day occurance for me anyways. I am a pretty optimistic person, happy go lucky for the most part. I would rather be having fun than crying[:D]. Sometimes I have to be the strong one too, and I am more than able to fulfill that role, been doing it my entire adult life, in fact I have been doing it since I was 14 and taking care of my mom after my dad passed away. Like I said, it is rather freeing not to have to be "strong" all the time.

KatyLied -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 9:52:24 AM)
quote: It took me a long time to allow myself to show my "clingy" face.... Yeah, I fear the clingy face. I am concerned that many guys see it as weakness and dysfunction, so I go out of my way not to show it. Actually I've been told I project "cold" and "distant", so there are some issues there too (for me).

juliaoceania -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 9:56:19 AM)
I think that Sinergy was the first one that ever saw that face... the day I showed it I went into cold mode first. I only answered questions with smart assed one word answers and he just sat there and watched me. I think it was because he did not feed the cold aloof part of me that I finally let the real deal out and showed him what I was really feeling.

kitttty -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 10:11:16 AM)
I guess when I think about it, my clingyness stems from a need for reciprocation of devotion. If I live as Master wants and then he does not show me attention, then I get angsty. I feel like it becomes a one way street where I do all the giving. I like to be cuddled, spoken to, instructed and most importantly, loved. Of course, being a submissive, I dont exactly go tell my Master to pay more attention to me or let me call him more often. If we are not at work, he sometimes calls me three or four times a day. I wish he would call me that often every day. I have no concept of what would be the point of submitting to someone if you do not wish to feel emotional dependence on them. It would be like having a fuck buddy who gives you orders from time to time. For me, submission is emotional dependence on someone.

ownedgirlie -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 12:07:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP But if you had the same level of need for them as they had for you, would you still describe them as "leeching"? Great question. If our need for each other was the same, then no, I would not see it as leeching; I would see it as two people clinging together in an exchange of give and take. I have been clingy before, to the point of being a leech. It was not good for me and it ran off the person I loved. My ex husband was clingy to me, to the point of being a leech, and yet he bullied me, too, go figure. The thing is, I would not want someone to need me as much as I need him. I like that imbalance; it feeds me and encourages me. Yes, I love being loved, don't get me wrong, but I do not want to engage in clinging together. That's one of the things that makes Master and I so compatible. quote: I put up walls around myself after my marriage turned bad because that was necessary in order to heal, and protect myself during that healing. However I saw afterwards that by keeping those walls up I not only kept others out, I also locked myself in. Those are powerful words. I locked myself in, too, so I know of what you speak. It's lonely in there, and desperate. quote: As long as I protected myself emotionally, I couldn't submit fully because for us, the basis of wiitwd is emotional transparency and I was hiding my emotions, not sharing them, because of fear. Eventually I had to get over the fear and take the risk as without it, I wouldn't have gained what I now have. I can echo these words. I remember coming to a point where I felt I was at the edge of a cliff, clutching (clinging, if you will) to a tree, not daring to jump. And there was my Master on the other side, saying if I jump, I'll make it all the way across and he'll be there. I was sooo scared to let go, and finally I came to the decision to let go and leap to him (a complete leap of faith) and follow him, and expose myself (emotionally) to him. And life has never been the same. quote: There are good reasons why, having fallen off a horse, you are immediately told to get back on it. To conquer the fear. Absolutely. Get right back on and don't give in to fear. Face it, deal with it, and enjoy. :)

KnightofMists -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/29/2007 4:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey So I throw this question out to the forums: Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence? First... I don't agree that by it's nature... submission encourages emotional dependence... but some individuals do encourage emotional dependency. For me that is a road that I see as loaded with dangers and risks that are far greater than the pay off. I think individuals that promote Emotional Interdependence to have a more substaining relationship in the long-term. As far as clingyness... it really is a matter of perspective of those involved and clingy-iness in a emotional dependent relationship is not what I would call as particularly substaining in the long term for the better of all those involved. However, clingy-iness in an emotional Interdependent relationship can be rather comforting. A comfortable level of clingy-iness for those involved in the relationship can help reassure and bring a level of certainity of the relationship. But... it's all a matter of degree... too much can not be so good.. just as too little can be bad as well.

CreativeDominant -> RE: On Clingy Submissives (12/31/2007 7:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: It took me a long time to allow myself to show my "clingy" face.... Yeah, I fear the clingy face. I am concerned that many guys see it as weakness and dysfunction, so I go out of my way not to show it. Actually I've been told I project "cold" and "distant", so there are some issues there too (for me). See my last post above, as it relates to this. It really is, in a way, funny how differently people deal with the "cling" factor in their lives and what they perceive as "being cling-y". What you describe yourself as being is probably the way I would also feel about how you were behaving, were you and I involved and so, that would be a case of me seeing you as not even being emotionally involved whereas you might well be BUT do not want to appear cling-y so instead end up appearing "cold and distant". There has to be a healthy balance out there and perhaps the trick is, as noted, either finding someone who is that "perfect" fit OR finding the way...with your partner...of expressing how you both feel without either one appearing cling-y or cold.

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