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"Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 11:55:18 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Baggage ban on batteries begins (AP)
Posted on Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:25PM EST

" WASHINGTON - To help reduce the risk of fires, air travelers will no longer be able to pack loose lithium batteries in checked luggage beginning Jan. 1, the Transportation Department said Friday.

Passengers can still check baggage with lithium batteries if they are installed in electronic devices, such as cameras, cell phones and laptop computers. If packed in plastic bags, batteries may be in carryon baggage. The limit is two batteries per passenger.

The ban affects shipments of non-rechargeable lithium batteries, such as those made by Energizer Holdings Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co.'s Duracell brand.

"Doing something as simple as keeping a spare battery in its original retail packaging or a plastic zip-lock bag will prevent unintentional short-circuiting and fires," Krista Edwards, deputy administrator of the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, said in a release.

The Federal Aviation Administration has found that fire-protection systems in the cargo hold of passenger planes can't put out fires sparked in lithium batteries.
The National Transportation Safety Board earlier this month said it could not rule out lithium batteries as the source of a cargo plane fire at Philadelphia International Airport last year. "

http://tech.yahoo.com/news//ap/20071228/ap_on_hi_te/lithium_batteries_travel

_____________________________

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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 12:25:00 PM   
Termyn8or


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Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"The Federal Aviation Administration has found that fire-protection systems in the cargo hold of passenger planes can't put out fires sparked in lithium batteries. "

That is total bullshit unless you are talking about a storehouse of said batteries. People have clothes and all kinds of crap in there, it's not solid batteries. If it sets a bunch of stuff on fire even, it will burn out quickly. The other burning materials should be eaxily extinguished.

But what it really boils down to is that there are people who are paid to write regulations, and it seems they do actually work.

And also what alot of people do not realize is that when you challenge authority, sometimes you win if you do it right.

What I mean is that you challenge the jurisdiction, which is basically the same thing. It's true in alot of cases, and that is also the only way to really beat the taxman. A tenet of law which is still surprisingly in effect is that if a court's jurisdiction over the defendant is challenged, the court must prove it.

But now we have regulations written by some guy, might make a hundred grand a year, but he ain't shit.

You think that "they say" means "they said" and you are fooled into beliving that everything is a law. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Like they "order" you to keep your cellphone turned off, for example on a plane. Fact of the matter is it wouldn't work anyway. Cellphones do not work off a sattelite, they work off of towers, which to save MONEY do not send signals up, only down. You are flying above them. (hopefully)

Airlines banned smoking a long time ago, not because of law, but because of MONEY. To open the ducts and bring in fresh air literally costs fuel, so they don't do it anymore. So now you nonsmokers can be all happy, but then you can catch each others' diseases now, colds, flu and so forth.

Happy now ?

You might as well travel by submarine.

T

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 2:21:41 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Remember, the purpose of the TSA is to hire more TSA Employees.

By creating an easily manipulated statistic, such as "Number if Items Intercepted", the easiest way to ensure the continued "Success" and "Growth" of the TSA, they just ban another class of Personal Property, and then next quarter they can point to the increased numbers and say, "We're stopping 10% more items than last year -- Give Us More Money..."



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 4:53:35 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Yes, fargle's right, and the TSA has one other purpose too: to scare people.

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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 6:18:37 PM   
Aneirin


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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		   Bans water and other fluids over 100ml, now loose batteries, what next, er, people?

I flew recently, from a Uk airport to a Scandinavian airport, and watched as people had their water bottles confiscated.Me, well they were'nt impressed with my New Rocks,belt buckle or accessory chains and after searching me, opted to do an explosives trace test on my lappy,a random test say thay, yes, but why me, not the suits that also were carrying them..

Anyway,those that had their water confiscated were reliably informed that they could buy water,airside,which they could at airport prices.This posed the question in my mind, that if traveller's water was treated as suspect,who checks all the water being sold airside?

Then there was the severely crippled old lady behind me that got asked to taste her own medicine,it being a fluid.Under protest it was tasted, but the protest was, that imbibing the medicine, it will upset the ladys medications.

So,the security at airports have a job to do and an increasingly more difficult job at that, it not being their fault, but the wear and tear on passengers is not good.

I can see the day, people not being bothered to fly, because of the loss of freedoms.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 10:23:01 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline 		Well, thank God i'm not flying before January 1st!!! i can only imagine the terrible, fiery fates that await the passengers aboard all of those flights

It's just ridiculous. i've got a damned cross-country flight ahead of me next month, and i'm been dreading the airport experience already... changing my body jewelry out (some of it is large enough to set of metal detectors), taking the multi-tool off my keyring, saving some empty water bottles to take into the airport... and who knows what kind of new idiocy they'll come up with in the next couple weeks. i'd much rather take my bike to CA if i just had enough vacation days

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/29/2007 11:24:59 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


Posts: 514
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		Loose Lithium batteries are a proven source of ignition. Fire on board any aircraft is just about the most dangerous situation you can have. Even with extinguisher systems installed you might not put a fire out before it does fatal damage to some critical aircraft system. So why would anyone object to controlling this possible source of fire? If you need to bring along batteries just bring unopened packages and things are fine. Doesn't seem to be an issue that takes a lot of thought really. Certainly not something to get all up in arms about. Or would you prefer to go down in flames?

(in reply to petdave)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 12:11:18 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline 		Proven experimentally or a proven source of actual aircraft fires that have happened in the real world? You can light a lot of things in a lab. i figure if there's a danger that a theoretical loose battery could contact a theoretical piece of conductive material in such a way as to short terminals that are on opposite ends of the battery, there has to be an equal danger that a theoretical laptop battery could become disconnected from the theoretical laptop, and interact with a theoretical piece of debris (pen, aluminum-cased Wi-Fi card, spoon) in the laptop case to do the same thing.

Hell, what about the possibility of a pair of suitcases, with their typically coarse, rough-woven synthetic bodies, rubbing together and creating enough heat through friction to start a fire? Give me a Homeland Security grant, and i'll prove the hell out of that!

i'm telling you... The "Shoe Bomber" and the "Toothpaste Bomber" were just warm-ups... by this time next year, we'll all be living in fear of the "Butt Plug Bomber" and letting airport flunkies spelunk our brown-eyes just to hop the air bus. i'm buying stock in surgical glove manufacturers while i still can...

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 6:20:21 AM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

Loose Lithium batteries are a proven source of ignition. Fire on board any aircraft is just about the most dangerous situation you can have. Even with extinguisher systems installed you might not put a fire out before it does fatal damage to some critical aircraft system. So why would anyone object to controlling this possible source of fire?


It is the manufacturer's responsibility to ensure their product doesn't spontaneously burst into flames. Not the TSA's to make sure that it CAN'T happen.

That aside, let's conduct a Cost/Benefit study.

How many flights have been interrupted due to a lithium battery incident?

What was the cost of that interruption?

What is the cost of this stupid, Un-American and Totalitarian Rule... ( Last I checked, Free People in a Free Country can Own and Use Personal Property without restriction... ALEs, however are subject to strict regulation... )




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 6:53:49 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		When are they finally going to ban bugars?

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 7:59:44 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yes, lithium batteries are a problem full stop, the SLB in the tail contains a big lithium battery,I once had to open the SLBs to test they worked , the lithium batteries were a problem, when they came into contact with the outside air,giving off heat, which sometimes warranted enough to eject the battery out of the test bay door and have the fire department dump half a tonne of sand on it.

Yes, lithium batteries can be a problem, but then so can fizzy drinks, the type they sell on board aircraft.One aircraft I knew about had a rotted airframe beneath the galley, directly below where the drinks trolley was stored.Carbonated cola type drinks rot alluminium.Ever tried putting alluminum in cola and see what happens?

What other things could be a problem to aircraft besides people?

Ugh and I am flying again tommorrow, just waiting to see what silliness transpires this time.Flying I used to love, best form of transport,now I hate it, I find it such an ordeal what with all the increased security and other weirdness.

Airport security, a wonderful job for all the jobs worths out there, kind of on a par with traffic wardens I think.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 9:39:48 AM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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Joined: 7/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Proven experimentally or a proven source of actual aircraft fires that have happened in the real world?


Proven in actual aircraft fires as well as many other forms of real world fires caused by this battery type. Fedex has had a number of in flight fires caused by lithium batteries. The reason they did not become critical is that when you are carrying freight the crew can don oxygen masks and then dump all the cabin pressure to quickly extinguish such fires. Can't do that in a plane full of passengers.

(in reply to petdave)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 10:31:01 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Is the Fedex 2004 ULD Fire from the AC Propulsion shipment of PROTOTYPE 350 pound vehicle battery packs really relevant to a discussion of Laptop ( and other Consumer Product ) batteries?

The real issue is, are Li-Ion battery manufacturers being held accountable for their product defects?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/30/2007 10:34:27 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 11:12:56 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Status: offline 		I hope my pacemaker battery is safe 

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: "Baggage ban on batteries begins" (AP) - 12/30/2007 11:25:01 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		faery, welcome to our little group of terrorists.

Did anyone notice that the price of gas goes up as well as airline restrictions ?

If this isn't a money game I'll eat my own shorts.

T

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)
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