Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour?

Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Submissive

Message

sirguym -> Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 11:56:37 AM)
I make my living in the scene, in many ways, though not as a pro-Dom, see my profile. I recently noticed an inexperienced submissive, (ie,. a sexual and BDSM virgin), had looked at my profile, so I asked him if he thought I could help. He said, 'yes, these are things I'd like to explore with you.' coming back with the kind of attitude and shopping list (pony-play, 'enforced cross-dressing', chastity, cages, etc.) that a pro-domme will often be faced-with; I know, I have many pro-domme friends. I said, 'fine, but though I'd probably enjoy doing at least some of that, it's all pretty routine to me, that I first did one or more decades ago, and do when I want with my existing girls; and I prefer girls who don't need to be forced to be girls ... so I can't justify taking time off from earning my living, etc. though maybe if you can help me out in some way; perhaps give me a hand with some aspect of my business, we could talk more?' He got very upset and abusive and blocked me. I accept he has every right to decline to play; as much right as I do to decline to play with him. I feel that someone so inexperienced as him is unlikely to appreciate the way this 'market' works, with subs hugely outnumbering Doms. However, was it reasonable for him to be rude to me in the circumstances? Am I being unreasonable in feeling that I am under no obligation to accept a one-sided 'relationship', with little apparently in it for me?

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 12:08:24 PM)
you say you're not a Pro-Dom yet you quote yourself by saying "I make my living in the scene" and here "so I can't justify taking time off from earning my living, etc. though maybe if you can help me out in some way; perhaps give me a hand with some aspect of my business" imho, if you're making a living in the scene i.e. receiving payment for services rendered unto submissive/slave/etc, then you're a Pro-Dom

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 12:10:17 PM)
He may have misinterpreted your request for "giving you a hand at your business". I dont personally ever think it is reasonable to be rude, but you were asking him to pay to play when that was not quite what he was looking for. Something else the Prodommes are used to, those hoping for a freebie arent going to take well to being told there is a price tag of any sort. If you are not interested in playing, which it seemed you were not, then just state that. It sounded more like a case of "I am not interested in playing, but if I can benefit from it then I suppose I can indulge you" which he might have gotten offended by. You are not unreasonable for not being interested in a one sided relationship, but you didnt actually say you werent interested. Keep in mind the monetary isnt the only way a relationship can be more than one sided, and since you didnt seem to be interested in this potential anyway maybe that should have been your answer. My 2 cents DV

Misstoyou -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 12:14:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym I make my living in the scene, in many ways, though not as a pro-Dom, see my profile. I recently noticed an inexperienced submissive, (ie,. a sexual and BDSM virgin), had looked at my profile, so I asked him if he thought I could help. As you contacted him first, perhaps adding "for a price" to your initial query will make the terms more clear next time and avoid bad feelings.

CalifChick -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 12:16:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym However, was it reasonable for him to be rude to me in the circumstances? Am I being unreasonable in feeling that I am under no obligation to accept a one-sided 'relationship', with little apparently in it for me? It is never reasonable to be rude. Tempting, satisfying, delicious even, but reasonable? Never. As far as one-sided relationships, I think you know the answer to that already. Maybe he was not interested in being one of your office girls or maids, and just wanted the info. Block, Ignore, Move On. Cali

SirMIkeSD -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 12:17:10 PM)
It is clearly stated that you make your living in the scene, I see no reason for him to be rude. But lets face it, rude seems to be the norm with many people on the net in general since they will never meet you face to face. Mike

sirguym -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 12:20:53 PM)
It says on my profile: I've earned my living in the scene for 16 years, as a writer, publisher, bookseller, mail-order company, event organiser and promoter. But not as a pro-Dom, or by any other direct 1:1 services. I do play for pleasure, mostly with girls who come and help me/us with our business, who enjoy the play and enjoy being involved. I wasn't seeking money from him, though if he preferred to pay rather than help in other ways, I guess I would have considered it.

ghitaPVH -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 1:18:54 PM)
Wait. You contacted him, offered your help. He takes you up on your offer, happy that someone with experiance is kindly offering to help him. You turn around and say, oh, but my offer wasnt free, you gotta do something in return for me. And you're shocked he was upset???

sirguym -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 2:38:04 PM)
quote: Wait. You contacted him, offered your help. He takes you up on your offer, happy that someone with experiance is kindly offering to help him. You turn around and say, oh, but my offer wasnt free, you gotta do something in return for me. And you're shocked he was upset??? [unquote] He had viewed my full profile, which clearly states what I am about; not just once, but a couple of times since. I was not shocked; I don't recall being 'shocked' in the last decade, but I was bemused. The analogy that comes to mind is of writing to a potential date that I'd like to 'go Dutch', i.e. split the costs 50/50%. Then later, after that point had not been further discussed, when it came to me gently introducing the topic of how exactly how he will chip in his contribution, he gets all morally outraged as though I am some kind of whore, for even imagining that he has any potential or actual obligation to make some kind of contribution. I was not demanding anything. I was just trying to politely point out that my profile says I was looking for a date who was prepared to pay their way, not someone to be 'the light of my life'; and was there any way that he could pay 'in kind', (except sex which was not on offer as I was straight, he was gay and we were both male), which he thought may be appropriate?

sodsta -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 3:29:41 PM)
quote: perhaps give me a hand with some aspect of my business, we could talk more Maybe he just wasn't sure what you meant by giving you a hand with your business. Depending on how it was worded, he might possibly have thought you were referring to paying for your services. Not saying it was your fault, and no, there was no reason for him to be rude, but wires do tend to get crossed every now and then, unfortunately. Out of curiosity, what exactly does giving you a hand with your business entail? Did you explain that to him? That might have put him more at ease.

BitaTruble -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 3:44:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym He had viewed my full profile, which clearly states what I am about; not just once, but a couple of times since. And didn't write to you. quote: The analogy that comes to mind is of writing to a potential date that I'd like to 'go Dutch', i.e. split the costs 50/50%. Except you didn't say that in your initial email. You offered help. To me that says .. "I know you read my profile and know what it says. You didn't write to me, but that's okay. Sometimes I do things from the kindess of my heart and maybe I can help you. I'm setting aside the criteria in my profile in order to do this for you. Lots of assumptions, yes, but then you made the assumption that he would be fine with meeting the criteria you list even though he never initiated contact with you. quote: Then later, after that point had not been further discussed, when it came to me gently introducing the topic of how exactly how he will chip in his contribution, he gets all morally outraged as though I am some kind of whore, for even imagining that he has any potential or actual obligation to make some kind of contribution. Well, I have no idea if he was actually 'morally outraged' but I can see his point. He read your profile, didn't contact you. You contact him, offering to help, 'then' bring up the subject of a tit-for-tat after it would have been clear in his mind, or so it seems to me, that your offer to help came from the heart and was genuine, then you spring an ulterior motive on him. Can you at least see his side of the issue? quote: I was not demanding anything. I was just trying to politely point out that my profile says I was looking for a date who was prepared to pay their way, not someone to be 'the light of my life'; and was there any way that he could pay 'in kind', (except sex which was not on offer as I was straight, he was gay and we were both male), which he thought may be appropriate? What were your expectations in writing to him in the first place? His bad for being rude. He could have declined without the immaturity. Your bad for leading the horse to the water trough then telling him he had to pay to take a drink. Celeste

sirguym -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 4:26:40 PM)
quote: Out of curiosity, what exactly does giving you a hand with your business entail? Did you explain that to him? That might have put him more at ease. I had not fully explained in messages up to that point; I had just got around to suggesting it was time to discuss who pays the bill and for what, after picking up the vibe that he was expecting the whole menu as a free favour. In practise, helping us could mean anything from folding leaflets, collating pages, stapling booklets, trimming or stuffing envelopes, to writing or illustrating a novel, taking a part in or editing a sound-bite, modelling for a still photo or video-clip, fixing or enhancing computer hardware, software or systems we use, making or modifying a human-pony sulky or harness, being a maid, butler or chauffeuse for us, or dozens of other roles or tasks, suited to everybody from the 'barely alive' to 'superwoman' level of ability! I am willing and able to be extremely creative in finding something that may be considered to be a win/win situation for us both. But our boast of 'turning fantasy into reality' is a simple statement that, 'we've turned our fantasies into reality, and you can come and join us there, if your particular dream role fits within the spectrum we encompass'. It is not the classic promise that, 'I can be whatever you want'; (and definitely not that for free!). Rather we offer a range of opportunities; if one suits you, and if we can agree a price, come and play! I hope that helps explain my position, dotting the 'i's and crossting the 't's .... Guy

MystressDream -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 5:02:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym quote: Out of curiosity, what exactly does giving you a hand with your business entail? Did you explain that to him? That might have put him more at ease. I had not fully explained in messages up to that point; I had just got around to suggesting it was time to discuss who pays the bill and for what, after picking up the vibe that he was expecting the whole menu as a free favour. In practise, helping us could mean anything from folding leaflets, collating pages, stapling booklets, trimming or stuffing envelopes, to writing or illustrating a novel, taking a part in or editing a sound-bite, modelling for a still photo or video-clip, fixing or enhancing computer hardware, software or systems we use, making or modifying a human-pony sulky or harness, being a maid, butler or chauffeuse for us, or dozens of other roles or tasks, suited to everybody from the 'barely alive' to 'superwoman' level of ability! I am willing and able to be extremely creative in finding something that may be considered to be a win/win situation for us both. But our boast of 'turning fantasy into reality' is a simple statement that, 'we've turned our fantasies into reality, and you can come and join us there, if your particular dream role fits within the spectrum we encompass'. It is not the classic promise that, 'I can be whatever you want'; (and definitely not that for free!). Rather we offer a range of opportunities; if one suits you, and if we can agree a price, come and play! I hope that helps explain my position, dotting the 'i's and crossting the 't's .... Guy *IMO... the fact that you contacted him and not the other way around and offered him help... only to try to get something out of him for that help...* ummm... think about it. I would have been rude also. You were basically preying on his need for help and trying to cash in on it. If he had contacted you after reading your profile, I could understand your "amusement"... but, I find your being "amused" at his response as extremely tacky. It was nothing more than a bait and switch.

AquaticSub -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 5:05:55 PM)
~Fast Reply~ The thing, to me, is that you contacted him. If you contacted me, even after me looking at your profile, and offered to help me I would assume that you were doing so because you would take some sort of enjoyment out of helping me. If I wanted help in exchange for services, I would contact you. If I were in your shoes, I would have mentioned that it would be in exchange for something, be it money or help, in the first e-mail. While that is no excuse for being abusive, I can see where he got annoyed. Edited for typo

DesFIP -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 5:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH Wait. You contacted him, offered your help. He takes you up on your offer, happy that someone with experiance is kindly offering to help him. You turn around and say, oh, but my offer wasnt free, you gotta do something in return for me. And you're shocked he was upset??? What she said. Okay, I can see you meant to be a sounding board but your contact to him didn't come across that way. It came across as bait and switch, as you trolling for business. I'd have thought the same as him. Next time be clear. Say that you noticed he's new and if he wants a friend to talk things over on occasion, you would be glad to do so. Don't give an open invitation and then be shocked when someone accepts it.

sirguym -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/30/2007 11:24:24 PM)
Thanks everybody, your responses have really helped me sort my own mind out about this. I don't want to embarrass him (or me) into going into more detail; but I am here on collarme to make friends and maybe find some collaborators in our hobby/business, which I have done, and I am doing. I am not here to make money - if that was my objective, I would use much more effective channels of communication than this site. I have learned a lesson or three through your responses, and though one can never completely guarantee to avoid misunderstandings, I hope what I have learned from this thread will help do so in the future.

Maya2001 -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/31/2007 4:23:39 AM)
I have on a number of times looked at full profiles but have never read the entire profile, I may just scan parts of in curiousity, so don't assume just because a person looks at your profile that they read it all if he is a new, and was asked to serve in your business, in his mind he could have thought you meant having sex acts with some of the females and he is strictly gay which to him would be very offensive , or 1000 other different wild possibilities could have entered his mind in interpreting what helping you in the business could entail , that could of scared the heck out of him. as a newbie starting off it can be scary, we have no idea who is safe or sane, when you added strings without explaining exactly what the services it would entail, he could have thought it was a lot more sinister than folding brochures since he does not know you from Adam, so what you considered rude of him could very likely a fear response due to not understanding what you wanted or were asking of him. And regardless of whether you are asking for money, gifts or services. asking for payment for your time does in fact make it a Pro Dom senario, which to many is offensive and is seen as the equivalent of prostitution once payment becomes involved

sirguym -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/31/2007 5:28:05 AM)
I just looked back at the messages; my first message included a heavy hint that discussion is free, but anything more has to be negotiated first. [I guess if I do something similar again, I will make it more explicit; though I will steer clear of his 'type' in future.] Next message from me confirmed that sex-wise we were incompatible, so nothing like that would happen, and the statement that, "I am not in a position to expend my time, resources or money for no return.". That is a simple statement of fact about my current situation. I clarified that if he wanted anything we normally offer for payment, eg pony-play events, adult school sessions, etc. I could not offer them for free, because they cost us money to lay on - but I would be happy to discuss any way he could 'earn his passage'. He queried that and I confirmed that, 'I am here to recruit folk for mutual fun, etc.' and 'If you are looking for free Domination services, or a life partner, I can't and won't help.' If he thought that I am a prostitute for asking money for him or others to come to a pony-play event and be a pony; when I have to hire the venue, provide all the equipment, promote it, etc., then every scene event organiser, whether they are doing it privately or for a scene group is a whore. If thinks I should offer it for free, or below cost, then I think it is probably time he gave up believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy! If you think paying somebody for their expenses, time or expertise is offensive; do you feel the same when you pay a plumber, an electrician or a lawyer? Because if you don't, then you're being morally inconsistent, surely? I can't see that there anything uniquely evil (or at all evil, in fact) about the FemDom profession, they are people too, and often highly skilled and professional about it, and generally much more honest than their clients. I don't consider myself to be a pro-Dom, but I see no valid moral objection about being one - yes, there are bad apples in all professions, and I've met a few pro-dommes I've wished I hadn't; but most seem to be great people. I've met a few plumbers, electricians and especially lawyers too, whom I've wished I hadn't! I just have him down as one of those overgrown toddlers who think they're entitled to whatever they want now, for free, and then threw a tantrum when by implication I told to grow up and come to terms with the real world, where nobody offers a free lunch.

Maya2001 -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/31/2007 5:47:58 AM)
quote: If you think paying somebody for their expenses, time or expertise is offensive; do you feel the same when you pay a plumber, an electrician or a lawyer? Because if you don't, then you're being morally inconsistent, surely? I can't see that there anything uniquely evil (or at all evil, in fact) about the FemDom profession, they are people too, and often highly skilled and professional about it, and generally much more honest than their clients. I think you are reading more into what I said, --- I said "to some people" quote: Next message from me confirmed that sex-wise we were incompatible, so nothing like that would happen, many doms expect subs to service other subs sexually, it could be what he thought you meant by helping in the business There was likely misunderstanding from both of you

WillowRain -> RE: Is it always wrong to pay, even if it is by returning a favour? (12/31/2007 10:00:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym perhaps give me a hand with some aspect of my business, we could talk more?' Does this mean something like, "You have to add to the houshold and be part of the household. One of the things you could do to help me and make my life easier is to come in and do some filing twice a week for two hours at my business. This is a form of service that I want and need and would very much enjoy you offering. We will set up time as well to explore these things that you are curious about. I will give to you my time and effort, and I expect you to give to me your time and effort... yadda.. yadda." OR does it mean, "There is a price for my services. This is the price. This act costs this. This act costs that. yadda yadda."

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625