RE: Punishment

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 9:40:02 PM)
So she didn't do anything you had forbidden her to do, didn't do anything she felt was wrong at the time and even you realize that she didn't really do anything WRONG, she simply needs a lesson in responsible communication, and yet you let her fall on her sword to reach for punishment as a way to make your irrational anger be appeased so she can learn what? Next time she makes a mistake, master gets pissed and shuts down? How about "You made a mistake, this upsets me, this is how you should behave in the future and why, let's try a few practice runs. Don't do that again. If you get into a situation like that again, politely leave the conversation immediately, copy it to me and we'll review it together." Gee, one path (yours) leads to anger, frustration, separation, insecurity and repetition of bad habits and the other (mine) leads to security, better skills, open communication and a productive conversation.

AquaticSub -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 9:53:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross So she didn't do anything you had forbidden her to do, didn't do anything she felt was wrong at the time and even you realize that she didn't really do anything WRONG, she simply needs a lesson in responsible communication, and yet you let her fall on her sword to reach for punishment as a way to make your irrational anger be appeased so she can learn what? I don't know about others, but I am inclined to agree that punishment isn't very effective in a situation where the offending party didn't realize they were doing something wrong. I think a stern warning about putting herself in danger is in order, perhaps along with putting rules in place about her future communications but a punishment coming out of the blue for things that hadn't been discussed doesn't make a bit of sense to me. For us, it would be punishable offense since I have rules already in place that make me responsible for protecting myself and regarding the sharing our personal information.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 10:09:53 PM)
I am often loathe to make comparisons of Ds relationships to child/parent ones, but I keep getting this image of a child crossing the street without looking, the mother freaking out and yelling at the kid, and the child bursting into tears and saying "I'll be good mommy, here, take my dinosaur away, just stop yelling." Do you really think the right thing to do is take the dinosaur and keep walking?

AquaticSub -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 10:28:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I am often loathe to make comparisons of Ds relationships to child/parent ones, but I keep getting this image of a child crossing the street without looking, the mother freaking out and yelling at the kid, and the child bursting into tears and saying "I'll be good mommy, here, take my dinosaur away, just stop yelling." Do you really think the right thing to do is take the dinosaur and keep walking? No. Not sure where you got that. As I said, a stern warning regarding safety is in order. Personally I'd vaguely question the mother who hadn't already told the kid not to run across the street already! If I were the mother in that situation, I'd probably do what I said above, give a stern warning, a smack on the wrist if I had told them not to run across the street and if I hadn't I would make sure that they realized they aren't supposed to that ever again! But no... I wouldn't take the dinosaur. I'm a softie like that. [:)]

kittish -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 10:31:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Srch4BiSub I want to thank everyone for their input it has been very helpful. It is probably a good idea to explain what happened. In a nutshell, she got into a conversation online with another submissive who she did not know. At this point I don't even know whether that person was a submissive, a Dom or whatever. Anyway, during this long conversation the other person asked her a lot of questions, where she lived, what she did for a living, questions about me, if i had kids, etc etc etc. Since my sub is an avid communicator and loves to meet people she answered a lot of these questions. At the end of their conversation, she emailed me with a copy of the covnersation since she thought I may be interested in what she had been doing. I was totally shocked. The covnersation was very one way with this other "sub" asking many personal questions and when my sub asked a simple question like this person's real name she avoided answering. My suspicion was quickly aroused and I have to confess that I did get rather annoyed with her. Despite the time, I immediiately phoned her and discussed what she had done. She could easily have compromised her own safety As soon as I pointed out to her the various suspicions I had of the conversation, she got pretty upset and apologetic and instantly realized how stupid she had been. I think she was more upset at the fact that I was angry and upset at what had happened. I asked her if she felt she needed to be punished for her actions, and she agreed. We have since discussed this on a second occasion and she is very sorry for her actions but feels she needs some form of punishment to remind her of what she did. She has even confessed that just thinking about the incident upsets her and I wonder if maybe this is punishment enough for her. Having given it some thought and reading some responses, I do think that denying her contact may not be a good idea. Whilst it will punish her it will also deprive me of hearing her voice and talking to her, but I also think that she may feel abandoned. I also feel that it is something that could have had dire consequences and something she should not forget. Vince. In light of the nature of the transgression, I would suggest that an appropriate punishment would be required research of on-line safety protocols, with an essay outlining what she's learned sent to you. I'd also suggest that you consider putting in place rules concerning what information she may or may not share with other people while chatting on line, as well as letting her know that you expect her to ask FIRST before engaging in any conversation that might be questionable. Considering that you hadn't mentioned setting up guidelines regarding this sort of thing in the first place (and setting aside the apparent lapse of common sense on her part), the above, along with the knowledge of your disapproval should be quite sufficient to prevent a recurrance of any sort of similar situation. If this sort of thing DOES happen again, then I'd suggest the problem is deeper than simply a lack of common sense regarding personal safety on her part. If you feel that research and an essay are not sufficient punishment, maybe you could consider limiting her on line time and contacts with others on line (NOT limiting contact with yourself, I agree with everyone who's said that would be a mistake). Respectfully, kittish

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 10:54:58 PM)
quote: As I said, a stern warning regarding safety is in order. Personally I'd vaguely question the mother who hadn't already told the kid not to run across the street already! Sorry chica, that wasn't a response TO you, just an additional musing. And kids get taught lots of things that they forget in the moment all the time.

AquaticSub -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 10:59:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: As I said, a stern warning regarding safety is in order. Personally I'd vaguely question the mother who hadn't already told the kid not to run across the street already! Sorry chica, that wasn't a response TO you, just an additional musing. And kids get taught lots of things that they forget in the moment all the time. Ahhh, I was a little confused! And I know. I was one of those kids who had to be kept on a harness. Damn ADHD and all those shiny things across the parking lot... [:D]

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Punishment (1/3/2008 11:20:31 PM)
In that case, yes an essay, one on the importance of not shareing to much info with unknown people. perhaps. quote: ORIGINAL: Cage Having read the above, I too would just keep it to the essay. I had assumed something much worse.... But I do think that the essay is a good idea. Cage

RedMagic1 -> RE: Punishment (1/4/2008 5:09:17 AM)
Hi AquaticSub, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but on the other hand I don't think we're really disagreeing here, given the spirit of both paragraphs I wrote in that post. How about "punishment for the sake of punishment, without regard to whether it builds the relationship" is a sucky relationship dynamic?

breatheasone -> RE: Punishment (1/4/2008 9:47:08 PM)
To the OP all I can say is...Dude, over react much?.....

darkpassenger434 -> RE: Punishment (1/4/2008 10:07:34 PM)
Looking at what the transgression was, do you think an effective punishment might be having to make arrangements to fix it. I will explain. She was overly talkative with a stranger, possibly compromising her safety while you are too far away to protect her. So prehaps looking for new lodging is appropriate. Packing the entire house or even part of the house is a huge pain in the ass. I am not even suggesting that you two actually move if it isn't warranted. I'm saying making her go through all the motions of uprooting the house while constantly thinking, "I have to do this because I put myself and the Master at risk" is a pretty punishing, and it certainly fits the crime. It also doesn't deprive either of you of any more contact than the situation already has, and might give you a lot to talk about. Just a thought. I hope this helps. -R

SirJohnMandevill -> RE: Punishment (1/5/2008 7:09:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross So she didn't do anything you had forbidden her to do, didn't do anything she felt was wrong at the time and even you realize that she didn't really do anything WRONG, she simply needs a lesson in responsible communication, and yet you let her fall on her sword to reach for punishment as a way to make your irrational anger be appeased so she can learn what? Next time she makes a mistake, master gets pissed and shuts down? How about "You made a mistake, this upsets me, this is how you should behave in the future and why, let's try a few practice runs. Don't do that again. If you get into a situation like that again, politely leave the conversation immediately, copy it to me and we'll review it together." Gee, one path (yours) leads to anger, frustration, separation, insecurity and repetition of bad habits and the other (mine) leads to security, better skills, open communication and a productive conversation. I'll echo L.A. here. The "transgression" really doesn't sounds like something that warrants cutting off contact or some vicious punishment. Take the "never do it again" route. (Aside: I LOVE reading the give and take on the boards. It's an incredible learning experience, one that makes me a better Dominant -- for myself AND my next [hopefully soon] submissive.). Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

Leatherist -> RE: Punishment (1/5/2008 7:33:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Srch4BiSub I am wondering if any Masters can help me with a dilema. I am Master to a collared submissive and we have been together for a long while. She is everything I could ever have asked for. I am currently on TDY with my job and will be out of the Country for several months. Thank God for the internet and cell phones. [:D] This has made our separation that much easier. Recently she did something (I won't go into details here) that totally astounded me and was nothing short of total disobedience and disrespect. After a very long phone call and a reading of the riot act to her, she pled guilty to the crime. Had I been within driving distance she would have been severly punished immediately. However, being out of the Country that is not possible, plus I will not be returning for several months. She fully understands the severity of what she has done and it's possible consequences and agrees that she should be punished. My dilema is how? Do I wait until I get back - which would be like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted or do I find some other punishment that can be administered now, at a distance. Since I am in daily contact with her, my initial thought would be to deprive her of my contact. But, this in effect punishes me since I very much look forward to speaking to her each day. I have read where a Master enlisted the help of a local Master to administer punishment on his behalf, but I am not sure whether this is a good idea or not. Has anyone come across this situation, or can anyone offer some pointers in the best way to deal with it. Vince Assign her unpleasant tasks that she must accomplish by writing and mailing to you. Or that she must photgraph, and send the results of.

Elorin -> RE: Punishment (1/5/2008 8:20:54 AM)
~using fast reply~ Honestly, I think that the punishment belongs to the dominant who didn't explicitly outline what is expected in such a situation, not the sub. She is lonely. Her dom is in another country. She is most likely hungry for contact and communication with other kinky people. And she grasped onto something that offered her this. Consequence? The two of you discuss this, and you the dominant set up a rule or protocol that makes it clear how much personal information can be shared in the future - no matter the BDSM role of the person talking to her. She gets in touch with a local BDSM community if she isn't already in touch with one, and/or finds a Yahoo group where she can build relationships with others who understand her kink and can give her support while her primary source of BDSM contact (you) is removed. And you look at your reaction and figure out if you read her the riot act because she was irresponsible, foolish, and didn't think well, or if it was because you felt guilty for not being there, guilty for not setting up rules ahead of time, and scared shitless at the risk she is now in due to that conversation. Probably a combination of things, but if you ripped her to pieces because of your own guilt, she deserves an apology.

Poppygirl -> RE: Punishment (1/5/2008 9:56:07 AM)
the best punishment would be no computer time that was not or is not directly related to being with you! since she cant be trusted to use it responsibily when you are not around!

DesFIP -> RE: Punishment (1/5/2008 3:03:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elorin And you look at your reaction and figure out if you read her the riot act because she was irresponsible, foolish, and didn't think well, or if it was because you felt guilty for not being there, guilty for not setting up rules ahead of time, and scared shitless at the risk she is now in due to that conversation. Probably a combination of things, but if you ripped her to pieces because of your own guilt, she deserves an apology. Folks, we have a winner. Smartest advice yet.

NorthernGent -> RE: Punishment (1/6/2008 9:01:57 AM)
The punishment should fit the crime. She is guilty of being naive, but, then again, you're guilty of being naive, too, i.e. by virtue of assuming she is well versed in internet chat. On the positive side, people learn from their mistakes, and it sounds like the two of you both realise there is a gap which needs closing. Any punishment in this case would be a matter of "do as I say, not as I do", and that's not an effective leadership tool, in my book. I would a) sit her down and explain why her behaviour was inappropriate, and impress upon her the fact that it can't happen again b) while you're at it, explain that the sole reason you're not punishing her, is because you recognise your part in this affair, and add that any similar transgression will result in xxxx punishment - preferably taking away something she enjoys.

Knightenslaves -> RE: Punishment (1/6/2008 10:35:11 AM)
I have to agree with most of the community here in that the "transgression" in question was not meant to be very diobedient nor disrespectful. If you both feel the need to punish I would suggest some education go along with that(someone else suggested the same).

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: Punishment (1/6/2008 1:59:43 PM)
I think the most effective action is the one that actually teaches the person the reason what they did was wrong. With that understanding, they are much, much less likely to do it in the future. In fact, as others have stated, this is probably a 'mea culpa' incident for you. Most likely you didn't realize this was an area in which she needed rules and training, but her actions show otherwise. Personally, I would approach this more as a training/education issue rather than a punishment. The essay idea is extremely good. Don't just have her write out an apology, but make her research things like internet and communication safety, online predators, scam artists, phishing/fraud, all of it, and then write an in depth explanation of why what she did was dangerous, and things she can do in the future to avoid those kinds of situations. At the same time consider putting additional rules in place to fence her in until her own judgement grows in regards to this. Now - after the training incident, if she continues to do it, that's when punishment would be in order because she knows that she did something wrong, why it is wrong, and has rules in place to remind her of these things which she broke.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment (1/6/2008 3:48:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent b) while you're at it, explain that the sole reason you're not punishing her, is because you recognise your part in this affair, and add that any similar transgression will result in xxxx punishment - preferably taking away something she enjoys. Can you clarify that you mean his part as in assuming and not training or giving clear expectations? Because while his reaction may have been inappropriate- that's not a reason to excuse punishment and I wouldn't want to set up the idea that when Dom acts stupid, the sub doesn't need proper punishment/training.

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