I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (Full Version)

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Vargsten -> I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 10:40:43 PM)

Dear Reader,

Today I wanted to throw out a question to all you die hard bdsm’rs out there. I was recently discussing rules and punishments with a fellow colleague.  Now the debate was this: If a Dom gives their submissive a set of ground rules she is expected to follow it or reap the consequences right? So what if a Dom breaks one of the rules themselves, what should happen to them?

Here were the rules given.

Rule #1
She is to do nothing detrimental to their relationship.

Rule #2
She is to do nothing that may degrade her self esteem.

Now the idea was he (the Dom) broke Rule #1. How does not matter, the point is he is guilty of breaching the agreement set in the foundation of their D/s relationship.  What if anything should happen to the Dom?

It was my point of view that the Dom and submissive should sit down and discuss the problem, because a serious problem it would be. However I can not come up with a single idea about what should happen to him. Theoretically a Dom would never do such a thing because breaking his own rules shows a sign in lack of discipline, self control, leadership, and his lead through example.  If someone in a bdsm relationship were to do such a thing they could hardly be called a Dominant, am I right? This is still neither here nor there, all I am really interested in, is what should happen to him? Serious answers only please, I think this is a serious question and I’m looking for a good philosophical discussion to help make up my mind. Thank you for reading this and/or responding.

Chris



AquaticSub -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 10:44:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

If someone in a bdsm relationship were to do such a thing they could hardly be called a Dominant, am I right? This is still neither here nor there, all I am really interested in, is what should happen to him? Serious answers only please, I think this is a serious question and I’m looking for a good philosophical discussion to help make up my mind. Thank you for reading this and/or responding.

Chris


Dominants are people. People fuck up.

Relationships are going to have problems, sometimes caused by one partner, sometimes by another and sometimes by various outside factors we like to call life. I think expecting one person to be perfect and never fuck up, never hurt the relationship, and never hurt the other person is a relationship problem itself.



catize -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 10:56:15 PM)

Gee, I dunno.  Would it possibly be something as simple as the dom says, “I fucked up and I’m sorry.”  ???



NakedGirlScout -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 10:59:52 PM)

The dominant is in charge, so he ought to clean up the mess he's caused. Or try his best to. That's the only thing that should happen.... imo.



EvilGenie -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:12:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Gee, I dunno.  Would it possibly be something as simple as the dom says, “I fucked up and I’m sorry.”  ???


Works for me!



sakidorei -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:19:11 PM)

This is a pretty open ended and vague scenario to me ... but perhaps i am just thick and it's late.  He gave HER a set of rules ... His rules may not always be HER rules ... there are times when there are different sets of rules in a relationship ... for Doms and subs or Masters and slaves.  You have NOT indicated what He intially agreed to in the context of HER rules or what HE agreed to in setting up the parameters for their relationship..
 
As to what happens to Him?  That's also rather vague ... likely the natural consequences that come when a trust is broken in a D/s relationship.  It's a power exchange relationship and though there are parameters set ... subs don't discipline thier Doms persay in my world ... however there are consequences for breeches of trust on both sides of the coin.  He may lose her trust ... she may act out ... the relationship may terminate as a consequence of His actions if they violate what He agreed to in the relationship. 
 
~saki
Property of Master D.



MissMagnolia -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:23:41 PM)

Nah. I'm the boss, the one making the rules. My sub isn't making them. Therefore, I can change those rules for myself. Because I can.[:D]



MasterFireMaam -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:29:58 PM)

As written, the rules are about HER actions, not his. If his actions are to be in question, there needs to be better negotiation.

BUT, sometimes, we assume things. So, she may not have known how unfair it would feel for him to do what she couldn't...or she may have assumed that he wouldn't do what she couldn't.

In the end, what really needs to be asked is how to repair the damage done and to keep it from happening again...OR take a real hard look at the relationship.

Master Fire



MasterFireMaam -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:34:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

Theoretically a Dom would never do such a thing because breaking his own rules shows a sign in lack of discipline, self control, leadership, and his lead through example.


I totally disagree with this. Just because I have a rule for one of my slaves does NOT mean that rule applies to me (or to the other slaves). I do NOT ask my girl for permission to make a purchase over $100 nor do I ask my boy permission to masturbate. They ask ME.

If the rules are to be the same for the Master as for the slave, THAT needs to be negotiated. I do have some of these rules. I have committed to always having positive intent behind my actions. My slaves have committed to that as well.

It's all in the discussion of the relationship.

Master Fire



Honsoku -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:35:24 PM)

The simple answer is that these are rules for her to follow, not him. Nowhere in those rules does it say that he has to follow them as well.

Now since he has made a mistake, and acting in a manner detrimental to the relationship is a mistake, he gets to clean it up (or not, and deal with whatever fallout happens).

Honsoku



tavinia -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/4/2008 11:54:05 PM)

my Assumptions:
     1. The Dom in question agreed to abide by these rules.  This is based upon Your statement:
quote:

"How does not matter, the point is he is guilty of breaching the agreement set in the foundation of their D/s relationship."
     2. He is remorseful
     3. He wants the relationship to continue
 
my Thoughts (aka imho):
If the above are correct, then He would take appropriate action to admit wrong-doing, apologize, discuss the error if relavant, and provide His sub with the opportunity to discuss her feelings.  Then, as in any adult relationship, the parties would move ahead together to rebuild/repair that which had been broken or lost. 
 
Quite frankly, a Dom that couldn't admit His error and apologize doesn't sound like all that much of a Dom to me.  Should she guard His honor, and her own, when He will not? 
 
I'm not saying He should self-flagellate; however, if He does value His own honor, her, and the relationship He would want to make amends rather than ignore an issue, which would likely fester silently to rupture later. 



darkpassenger434 -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 12:43:14 AM)

I would agree that the rules as stated apply to the sub here. That being said, I am an advocate that in addition to sub rules there need to be rules that apply equally to the relationship. People screw up on both sides of the fence, I would think a Dom would be responsible for his own punishment regarding transgressions of group rules he or she has established. Whether that is purely mental or something involving the sub is the Dom's perogative. It could be as simple as acknowledging the breach and openly committing to work harder at mastering himself. That being said. The rules as mentioned seem like an invitation for disaster. I don't know that its possible not to transgress against rules as intentionally vague as those as they involve subjective terms.
-R



Focus50 -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 3:00:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

If someone in a bdsm relationship were to do such a thing they could hardly be called a Dominant, am I right?

No; you're wrong - it has nothing to do with role or gender.  It's more like that he could hardly be called worthy of trust or respect.
 
As for what to do....
Assuming it was an honest mistake then I figure that's why us male Doms were given a chin - to stick it out and take it like a man; duly accompanied by the words "I fucked up and I apologise".
 
Now if, rather than a mistake, he was being cavalier in doing something detrimental to the relationship then it comes back to trust and respect.  The average sub is a forgiving soul but if she dumped his sorry arse because of it, I wouldn't blame her....
 
Focus.
Edited for insulting all subs with my poor spelling by referring to them as the wrong kind of soul (sole).  Chin is now retracted....



CuriousLord -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 3:52:52 AM)

Rules or agreed upon terms?

If it's a rule, it doesn't apply to the Dom. (At least, that doesn't make sense to me. Rules are things the Dom sets up, right?)

If it's an agreed upon term, and it's violated, in the absense of arbitration, this typically constitutes the end of a relationship. Of course, people are rarely so prudent in personal dealings, so it'll likely break down and become messy.



It should be noted I'm M/s and that I'm relatively lacking in D/s experience, so my views may not be applicable in the dynamic.



laurell3 -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 5:18:28 AM)

Like many have said your assumption all rules go two ways is not my experience personally.  However, I can't actually imagine having not doing anything detrimental to the relationship being a set rule for either party or expecting that punishment would ever be appropriate in that situation.  As a rule it's way the hell vague and really is something that should be about communication and not rule setting in my opinion.

What should happen to him?  He should apologize and talk to her and she should decide whether this relationship is appropriate for her given his behavior (which I have no idea what it is).   Does it mean he's "not a dominant", haha fat chance.  Possibly a poor one (really hard to tell with the info given), but nonetheless he carries the role and we all make mistakes.



DesFIP -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 5:26:17 AM)

He fixes it, meaning as long as it takes to re-earn her respect and trust. See, that in a nutshell is my objection to a punishment dynamic. It's based on revenge and doesn't do anything to help repair the damage.

You do something that hurts her, you have to figure out why you didn't care about her feelings at that moment. And you have to expect her not to trust you the next time you claim you care about her. You prove it through changed actions, not words. But be prepared that some things damage relationships forever.



MrrPete -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 5:47:41 AM)

It seems there's an assumption that the rules I set up for my sub AUTOMATICALLY apply to me. Simply not true.

I am the rule maker and I decide what rules apply to whom.



MissHarlet -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 5:59:37 AM)

I agree that rules set by the Dominant dont necessarily apply to them ..and I find these very vague .. and subjective.   My rules for my submissives do not apply to me. There are however some things that are not rules but terms of agreement and damageing a relationship would fall there for me.

Having said that .. I agree that if the Dominant has done something to damage the relationship they should talk to the submissive about it and apologize.  It is up to the submissive to decide if it is a deal breaker or not.



eyesopened -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 6:26:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vargsten

Here were the rules given.

Rule #1
She is to do nothing detrimental to their relationship.

Rule #2
She is to do nothing that may degrade her self esteem.


i don't see how the Dominant can violate either rule since the rules were set up for her to follow.

What happens when anyone does something detrimental to a relationship?  Well, the very phrase "detrimental to the relationship" means that the Dominant has somehow damaged the relationship and frankly, if He doesn't care then the consquences will be that eventually He no longer has that relationship.  If He cares, He will act to repair it.  What "should" happen to Him??  Are you suggesting that Dominants take some sort of punishment? 

The question is vague.  It suggests that the 'rules' were to be applied equally or that relationships should be equal.  Master and i are not equals.  We do not need to be equally yoked to pull in the same direction.



LaTigresse -> RE: I need Help with a philisophical D/s question... (1/5/2008 6:33:24 AM)

My first thoughts are probably rather cynical. First of all I am suspicious of someone calling themself dominant sticking their nose into someone else's relationship and critisizing the dominant. Call me crazy but that is always a red flag to me. Because quite honestly it is their business.

Secondly, one thing I often see forgotten on here. This is a relationship between two human beings. Sure, it is a D/s based relationship but guess what, we are not all that special. It is still a relationship between human beings. All the same rules apply, AND all the same problems! You know why? Because we are HUMAN. Human beings fuck up, we do stupid shit, we hurt one another. It is a fact of life. We deal with it and move on. Sometimes the relationship gets destroyed, sometimes it gets stronger. Again, it is a fact of life, the nature of relationships between human beings.

Oh sure, we like to think we are somehow better, special, have deeper more profound relationships......yada yada yada.........but the reality is that we just have a few different twists to them. Sure, we create a few different rules for our relationships, nothing terribly unique about that. Most people do. Our rules are just different than most. The reality is that, guess what!!, as in ALL relationships humans faulter and rules get bent or broken. It happens between parents and children, between employer and employee (ever had an employer that always followed their own rules for their employees??), between friends and between sig. others.

The key is not wether or not trusts (because that is really what it is) or rules get broken but how the human beings involved in the relationship handle it.......communicate........deal......BETWEEN them!

How I may handle a specific incident will probably be very different than how someone else would. Neither way may be wrong, just different. Who cares? It only applies to the people involved in the specific relationship.

So, all of that being said. What YOU might do if this were YOUR relationship is your business, your thing. What the dominant and submissive in question do to handle this situation is their thing as it applies to their relationship and THEIR business. They may choose to ignore it and move forward, they may choose to sit down and discuss it like grownups. They may choose to end their relationship. Again, it is between them. How I would handle it is irrelevant because it is not my relationship. Just because it is a D/s based relationship does not change the core human dynamics and the core responsibilities of having a relationship.

Edited to add....... the most humorous part of your post was the question about what should happen to the dominant. Is there some world wide Dominant Board of Revue and Discipline that I am unaware of??

What happens to said dominant is this. As in most of life when we human beings make a mistake, we either learn from it or repeat it and suffer the consequences.........DUHHHH!!!  Or we could go gangsta on him! Do some big Dominant Conference, have a mock trial, then kick the shit out of him. That'll learn him!



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