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References - 1/9/2008 4:43:39 AM

sugarplumsub

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2007
Status: offline

Hi E/everyone.

I am very new to D/s and just sort of finding my feet. A few Doms have said in messages that they could provide references if i require them. What are peoples views on this? Is it normal practice? Would you feel like you were interviewing for a job if you were asked to provide references and be offended? Or is it a reasonable precaution? I am really not sure how i feel about it, just a question that has arisen so wanted to see what people thought.

All replies welcomed, many thanks, sugar x

Post #: 1

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:12:58 AM

darkpassenger434

Posts: 138
Joined: 1/1/2008
Status: offline

I honestly couldn't provide any, but I wouldn't be offended if someone asked me to. Just not experienced enough yet. It doesn't really seem that unreasonable. I might get mildly irritated if "no references" meant " fuck off". I would expect no references to mean that the other person would want to take more time to get to know me before any serious interaction.
-R

_____________________________

"The man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the man doing it."

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 2

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:19:20 AM

ksub4u

Posts: 124
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline

Hi Sugar. I'm just not sure how worthwhile the references are. You wouldn't know the person providing the reference, so how valuable would it be? I'd rather rely on my gut instinct to see whether we are compatible.

That being said, I suppose if you are out in the lifestyle and involved in munches, etc., then references could be helpful. I'm not, but I have read that those involved in your local group will have a feel for a certain person. If a Dominant is spoken of highly by the group by-and-large, I think that would say something about the safety of that person.

I'd just take everything offered with a grain of salt and then proceed cautiously.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 3

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:25:47 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sugarplumsub

Hi E/everyone.

I am very new to D/s and just sort of finding my feet. A few Doms have said in messages that they could provide references if i require them. What are peoples views on this? Is it normal practice? Would you feel like you were interviewing for a job if you were asked to provide references and be offended? Or is it a reasonable precaution? I am really not sure how i feel about it, just a question that has arisen so wanted to see what people thought.

All replies welcomed, many thanks, sugar x

In general I regard the concept of references for a personal relationship a negative. Particularly online where it is nearly impossible to distinguish the truth until you've met the person face to face.References within a physical social community have a bit more standing to me but still I would hesitate. Someone may think person X is a great guy because they go to the bar together and are friends. But do they know how X behaves behind closed doors?Another may think person X is a jerk because they were turned down by X and have lingering resentments.The scenarios are endless, pretty much meaning that it is nothing like a job reference. You're asking someone else to judge if X is suitable for you and there is simply too much involved. I would ask people I know in the community if they know X and how they feel about X but I would not take that as gospel. People lie, knowingly and sometimes unknowningly. People have all manner of motivations. Suppose the one that you ask about X thinks that you are wrong for him? They may give a negative review to keep you away.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 4

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:26:59 AM

Coerced2Please

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline

references probably mean a lot more for women looking to play w/ potential men, esp. if the woman wants submit, as this takes much trust. Maybe too the references could be for the demanding sub, the one that wants a certain kind of training and nothing else. References could at least verify the person's interests.

but do people really use these? written or by phone?

(in reply to ksub4u)

Post #: 5

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:41:08 AM

MissMorrigan

Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

What information would references impart to another? Reliability of a submissive or dominant? That they are honest and trust worthy? That they are who they claim to be? That they have engaged in x, y and z? Their level of experience? That they are 'real'? All this only tells a person how they have interacted with the person that provided the reference, a reference, no matter how well intentioned, can tell another how a person will likely interact with them.

I have had submissives ask me to provide a reference for them and my answer is always the same: Sure I will verify that I have indeed played with you, but do ask the prospective dominant to take the time to get to know you themselves.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 6

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:47:51 AM

sugarplumsub

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2007
Status: offline

Thank you for all the responses so far!

Camille, you posed some very interesting thoughs, i had thought that i wouldnt necessarily be able to verify the authenticity of the references, but you gave a variety of other points for consideration that i hadnt thought of!

Dark Passenger, that is another thought also, if you have no references then i suppose people could take it as though you have something to hide, but as you say you have to start somewhere, and i for one wouldnt be able to provide any as i have no one to give one due to my inexperience!

ksub4u, yes i think i agree with the gut instinct aspect as well, i think even if you arent the best judge of character you still have markers that go up in response to certain things, so instincts are valuable.

Coerced2Please, i am not sure if they do really use them or not to be honest, it wasnt something i was even aware of until someone mentioned they had them!

Thanks for the thoughts, and the welcome, my first post so nice to know you are all so pleasant!

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 7

RE: References - 1/9/2008 5:52:07 AM

sugarplumsub

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2007
Status: offline

MissMorrigan, you posted while i was replying, sorry to have missed you in the first! That is very true, it is all relative, as you say how you interact with one is not necessarily how you would interact with another. I think perhaps they could be useful, but as ksub said i think the grain of salt is useful! Thank you.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 8

RE: References - 1/9/2008 6:02:29 AM

peppermint

Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

References can be a good thing, depending on the source. It would be naive to rely completely on references when meeting someone new although certain types of references can go a long way in making you feel safer. A good Dom for you might be the wrong Dom for someone else. Just became someone has great references does not mean you can let your defenses down. You still need to make good choices, set up a safe call, and meet in a very public place.

For example...i met a Dom through CM. He and i got along very well. I was a newbie and knew only a couple lifestyle people. He was going to be in my area in a month or so and wished to meet. After talking with him i knew he was a member of his local munch. It just so happened that i'd met a sub online who was a new member of that munch and knew some of the people. I talked with her and she didn't know the Dom, however, said she'd check around for someone who might. Later that day i got contacted by a sub who was a long time member of that munch and she knew the Dom. Yes, he was a long time member of the munch. Yes, he helped organize functions and was a trusted member of the group. I felt fairly safe meeting him, but still set up a safe call. As it turned out, he was exactly what and who he said he was. I told him i'd checked him out and he wasn't even a bit upset that i'd done that. He remains a great friend and mentor.

On the other hand, i was chatting with another Dom i'd met through CM. I wasn't very attracted to him but would have met him as i wanted to become acquainted with more people in the community. He offered references. His references were to have people he knew and played with contact me via email. I didn't feel that his references were very trustworthy as he could possibly have made up email accounts just to give as references. As it happened, i talked with the Dom in my first example and he knew the second Dom. He gave me more of the man's history and play technique than i'd been told. I learned that in his previous marriage he'd been caught cheating, was very poly, something he'd neglected to tell me, and was very rough. I passed on meeting him as he had play in mind. From what i personally know about him now, i made a very good choice.

Then there are the people who never belong to groups. They don't do public play or attend munches. They might make great Doms for someone and they don't have references. In the end, you have to use your own instincts about the people you ultimately decide to meet.

_____________________________

We are stardust, we are golden, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

Yes, I am crazy about feathered creatures. I have a dozen chickens, 3 ducks, 5 geese, and 2 parakeets.

Revise that number. Just got 14 new chicks and 5 turkeys.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 9

RE: References - 1/9/2008 6:16:14 AM

sugarplumsub

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2007
Status: offline

Thank you for the reply peppermint, it was interesting to see two sides to the referencing situation. I am not involved in any local communites at the moment, (so the link is welcomed thank you) and dont really have a check point so to speak, but i can see how yours have proved very useful. I think it raises the issue that people really can be misleading in how they represent themselves, which is such a shame for those who are honest, and quite unnerving for a new subbie! I have been very cautious up to yet, but i think i will increase that further, slow progression seems to be advisable.

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 10

RE: References - 1/9/2008 6:17:58 AM

MissMorrigan

Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

That is a very good point and one that I feel applies to me. I have never engaged in public play, while I know some people on the scene, I remain a very private person and although have attended munches know that the scene side of things isn't for me. To many I have played or had relationships with I am trustworthy, experienced in the techniques in which I speak of and am true to my word - on the flip side, I am the opposite of this to some of those I have declined or terminated service with due to their dishonesty, but then, it boils down to a 'who do you believe' scenario and why I always tell people to make up their own minds once they have gotten to know a person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint
Then there are the people who never belong to groups. They don't do public play or attend munches. They might make great Doms for someone and they don't have references. In the end, you have to use your own instincts about the people you ultimately decide to meet.

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 11

RE: References - 1/9/2008 6:26:13 AM

peppermint

Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

Ooops, i hadn't read your profile. However, the reference site i gave has a UK place that should help you learn about what is available in your area.

Have changed "state" to "area" in my signature.

< Message edited by peppermint -- 1/9/2008 6:48:08 AM >

_____________________________

We are stardust, we are golden, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

Yes, I am crazy about feathered creatures. I have a dozen chickens, 3 ducks, 5 geese, and 2 parakeets.

Revise that number. Just got 14 new chicks and 5 turkeys.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 12

RE: References - 1/9/2008 6:29:54 AM

MissMorrigan

Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Back in the day when I was pro domming, I had taken on a client who provided a reference from a previous mistress as to his authenticity, his level of experience (according to her, he was a heavy masochist) and his reliability. I took my time to get to know him over three weeks, taking into consideration what he'd claimed regarding his level of experience, as well as his former mistress' comments verifying this 'fact'. He arrived for his first session with me utterly filthy, I insisted he shower immediately as no amount of money could soothe the offence to my nose. The session progressed and we got to the point I was to give him a hard caning. I had him address my birching horse and proceeded to give him his first stroke. An outsider watching would have thought I'd branded him given his reaction - it wasn't even a full-on stroke. I allowed him time to process this and informed him another was being applied. The second had him running around the room bawling at how vicious I was and he hadn't 'signed up' for such 'abuse'. Feeling royally pissed off that he had clearly lied to me and it now dawned on me the ex 'mistress' was likely HIM using an alternative email address, I decided to bend him over the horse again, this time restraining him, and informing him I was about to earn my 'abusive' reputation as I gave him several extra strokes (thank goodness the lady next door was stone deaf!) before sending him home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sugarplumsub
MissMorrigan, you posted while i was replying, sorry to have missed you in the first! That is very true, it is all relative, as you say how you interact with one is not necessarily how you would interact with another. I think perhaps they could be useful, but as ksub said i think the grain of salt is useful! Thank you.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 13

RE: References - 1/9/2008 7:55:09 AM

kinkypuppy2

Posts: 345
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline

Given the anonomous nature of the internet references are VERY good and should be encouraged.

_____________________________

See nic "Kinkypupper" also as "slvseeker" As I cannot reply to any posts or log into collarchat under that name I had to create this profile.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 14

RE: References - 1/9/2008 8:35:20 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Historically (pre-internet days), references were the common method of introduction to individuals or other groups. However, references are far less commonly used within certain segments of the BDSM coummunity in our modern era of impersonal internet introductions, online communities that make for a poor substitute for real time socialization/education/example/personal contact, concepts such as equality of outcome (rather than equality of opportunity), and list longer than I care to take the time to mention.

However, the use of references still remains a common practice for many who see the need for them increasing in a world where we routinely come in contact with people who can (and do) sit in front of a keyboard thousands of miles away and create any kind of fictional biography they desire. No one recommends that references should be your only source of information, or that they should be a substitute for your own perceptions as you get to know someone. And I'm not fond of references from a stanger for a stranger (I much prefer references from recognized munches, groups, events, etc.) rather than individuals (unless I know the individual giving the reference). But they can quickly and easily confirm objective information that they tell you about themselves (ie: whether they are active in their community, whether they are single, whether they have served time for burying bodies in their basement, etc.).

My own observation is that those who have legitimate references to provide generally (though not always) advocate their use as one (not the only) informational source and that those without references generally (though not always) feel that they're some sort of offensive intrusion (or not "fair").

Whenever the topic of references comes up (and it does with some regularity) I reference what I consider to be a valuable Jack Rinella article on the topic...

http://albertasafecall.ca/Article6.html

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 15

RE: References - 1/9/2008 8:52:05 AM

KnOcala

Posts: 260
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline

I would also question the "references" because he is providing them. It could all be him. Its really tricky. If I was ro get engaged, I wouldn't ask for a reference from an ex-spouse, and to date, I wouldn't ask an ex-lover for a reference. The only way to get a reference that has first hand knowledge would be to ask around yourself and in any situation, the reference could be tainted wither way. I think if you can talk to people like in your first situation that are familiar with him, but not first hand expereince but know and may have heard about him. That would be the way to go. Safety is first. Trust your gut instinct.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 16

RE: References - 1/9/2008 9:39:38 AM

sugarplumsub

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2007
Status: offline

Thanks peppermint, i will check it out.

MissMorrigan - i am not suprised you were so annoyed, and im sure a lesson was learnt by himself that liars normally get what they deserve! A good point for caution though on not only the authenticity of refs but also for advocating perferences you are not ready for.

John - thank you for the extensive reply. I think your observation in many cases could be true, but then i suppose for the extremely private, for those who are inexpereinced and cannot provide references, and for those whose relationships have come to an end where they are no longer in contact perhaps through no fault of their own, i can understand the reluctance/inability to provide references. I suppose the response to the request would be quite telling, if immediately defensive you would start to wonder why.

KnOcala - Again within your response it raises the question of the origin of the reference, which i think is probably just as important as what the reference actually says.

Thanks again everyone!

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 17

RE: References - 1/9/2008 10:08:11 AM

vampchick88

Posts: 346
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline

Personally references don't mean that much. My pet has had previous owners and has aquired skills from them. I'm more interested in how he acts, skills, how HE is. References could offer words of advice, or they could just be friends trying to make himself look good. Actions speak louder than words to me.

_____________________________

Proud owner of rubberpet, the best investment of my time, trust, and heart that any Domme could ever dream of.

(in reply to sugarplumsub)

Post #: 18

RE: References - 1/9/2008 11:47:22 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

I don't give references but I do give free samples. I agree with vampchick that actions do speak louder than words.

(in reply to vampchick88)

Post #: 19

RE: References - 1/9/2008 12:23:06 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

I agree with vampchick that actions do speak louder than words.

I don't dispute this a bit. References are of little value for people you already know. I guess the point is, do you want to invest the time and effort to get to know every anonymous out of town guy or girl that you have an interest in, only to find out they are married when they told you they're single, have three submissives or Masters when they said they had none, have never even been to a munch when they told you they run one (or two) and give frequent presentations/workshops, etc.

It's the internet and people tell all kinds of lies about themselves. If they don't want to substantiate their claims, then I'd say that speaks volumes about them.

That is not to say that anyone should unduly prejudice those that do not have references. No one expects those that are new or isolated to have references. But if someone claims to have a long and intimate association with BDSM and is without references... well, that's just not possible.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 20

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