RE: References

RE: References (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> RE: References (1/9/2008 2:42:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover That is not to say that anyone should unduly prejudice those that do not have references. No one expects those that are new or isolated to have references. But if someone claims to have a long and intimate association with BDSM and is without references... well, that's just not possible. John I just wanted to expand a bit on what John said about the isolated not having references. It's true that there are plenty of folks who don't play in public and, as such, would not have references regarding BDSM per se, but as I do play in public and am a strong advocate of references and someone chosing to be isolated and not playing in public would mean were not compatible in that area. Since that's important to me, it would be a deal breaker. You can get all kinds of information just from bringing the subject up and before you put any sort of long term investment into someone. If you plan on staying out of the public eye, you're probably not going to be able to build up references either, so it's something to keep in mind as you keep walking. I don't, generally, play with new people either, unless I happen to meet them in public. If they are willing to do so, they can earn themselves some references by attending events and stuff so it's not going to hurt to ask for them. If they don't plan on being out and about in public, again, we're not going to be compatible anyway. I also agree with John when he mentioned it's a tool in the box.. it's not the only tool though, and shouldn't be treated as such. Celeste

MadRabbit -> RE: References (1/9/2008 3:46:30 PM)
The only references that matter to me are the one's from some munch or BDSM group OR individuals who I happen to know through meeting people in the local scene. It's not a deal breaker for me if they are absent, but will certainly loosen up some boundaries if they are present and I consider them to be reliable. I have a few references locally and non-locally who can validate that I am a real person who has participated in events. I don't promote them as anything more than that. As far as acquiring references, I look at it as something that happens naturally over the course of time and not something that I feel required to do. I feel absolutely no pressure to travel or participate a public event unless I have the free time and am interested in going to. My participation in the public scene is purely for my enjoyment and not out of a "need" to develop a BDSM resume for everyone to see.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: References (1/9/2008 3:53:57 PM)
Part of the "Introduction Package" I send out when I first get serious about a slave includes two references. Both are prodigious posters on BDSM message boards as well as being fairly well known in their prospective local scene (one is in Toronto, the other in L.A.). I don't think anyone has ever taken up the task of actually contacting them...at least they have never told me they have been contacted. I think, however, that it must be re-assuring to a slave to know that I do indeed have ties beyond some silly screen name. Taggard

MadRabbit -> RE: References (1/9/2008 3:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty Part of the "Introduction Package" I send out when I first get serious about a slave includes two references. Both are prodigious posters on BDSM message boards as well as being fairly well known in their prospective local scene (one is in Toronto, the other in L.A.). I don't think anyone has ever taken up the task of actually contacting them...at least they have never told me they have been contacted. I think, however, that it must be re-assuring to a slave to know that I do indeed have ties beyond some silly screen name. Taggard This is actually one of the downsides I think to the whole reference thing. Much in the same way you can falisfy references on a job application because maybe one employer out of one hundred will call them.

Rover -> RE: References (1/9/2008 4:05:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty Part of the "Introduction Package" I send out when I first get serious about a slave includes two references. Both are prodigious posters on BDSM message boards as well as being fairly well known in their prospective local scene (one is in Toronto, the other in L.A.). I don't think anyone has ever taken up the task of actually contacting them...at least they have never told me they have been contacted. I think, however, that it must be re-assuring to a slave to know that I do indeed have ties beyond some silly screen name. Taggard This is actually one of the downsides I think to the whole reference thing. Much in the same way you can falisfy references on a job application because maybe one employer out of one hundred will call them. No, it's the downshide to being lazy. John

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: References (1/9/2008 4:15:06 PM)
The question for me always becomes, if you get references to help form a judgement about someone, how do you form judgements about how to assess the references?

MadRabbit -> RE: References (1/9/2008 4:15:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty Part of the "Introduction Package" I send out when I first get serious about a slave includes two references. Both are prodigious posters on BDSM message boards as well as being fairly well known in their prospective local scene (one is in Toronto, the other in L.A.). I don't think anyone has ever taken up the task of actually contacting them...at least they have never told me they have been contacted. I think, however, that it must be re-assuring to a slave to know that I do indeed have ties beyond some silly screen name. Taggard This is actually one of the downsides I think to the whole reference thing. Much in the same way you can falisfy references on a job application because maybe one employer out of one hundred will call them. No, it's the downshide to being lazy. John Fair enough lol, but I still hold to my point that if people focus too much on people just "having references" (Which is the common theme song sung "Do you HAVE references?") as opposed to asking your friends of friends if this guy is cool or not, it's a downside. However, I don't mean to say that I think it's a flaw in the concept of references anymore than I think someone forgetting to use a safeword is a flaw in the concept of safewords.

MadRabbit -> RE: References (1/9/2008 4:19:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The question for me always becomes, if you get references to help form a judgement about someone, how do you form judgements about how to assess the references? That's only one way to look at the use of references, in my opinion. To me, it's no different than going to my buddies who know a guy I just met and asking about him to see if his facts about himself match theirs. I already know my buddies and time has passed for me to develop some degree of trust with him so it's speeding up the process of getting to know and trust this guy. However, this is why only certain references have any value to me and I consider them to be something that helps move the deal along as opposed to something that makes or breaks it.

LadyHugs -> RE: References (1/9/2008 4:58:10 PM)
Dear sugarplumslave, Ladies and Gentlemen; References are only as good as the source of/for references. Character references are as good as those who personally know a person and deals with them more than on an occassion. To me, there is never a reference good enough if my gut instincts tell me otherwise. It is indeed fact, that what I consider good may not be good for another, etc. It boils down to a personal selection and choice for the person making decisions for themselves. In the Internet world, I really do not hold solid support for just 'screen names' as one can go from one site to another and, though the screen name might be the same--might be someone totally different on each one of those sites. In addition, individuals can have multiple computers and multiple connections to an ISP and literally carry on a conversation with themselves and can/could/may/would lead a reasonable person down a skewed perception of what is going on. On the Internet, its really dealing with a lot of assumptions and a 'faith' that people for the most part are acting in good intentions. However, I prefer face to face meetings and meet my friends and or associates. I am active in my community in different areas. I could give many qualified references if necessary. However, in most cases my references have not been contacted as far as I know. Most individuals I am introduced to, are introduced by those who are well known in the scene and or lifestyle themselves and, I suspect it is an unspoken reference when a personal introduction is made by someone I know to me and their comments. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Rover -> RE: References (1/9/2008 6:16:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The question for me always becomes, if you get references to help form a judgement about someone, how do you form judgements about how to assess the references? That is a legitimate concern if what is being referenced are subjective judgements (ie: are they "nice" or "safe" or "respected", etc.) as opposed to objective facts (are they married, do they have other submissives/slaves/Masters, are they active in the community, etc.) Personally, I prefer to inquire about the objective facts and leave the subjective judgements to myself (with some input from those that I know personally and whose judgment I respect). John

domiguy -> RE: References (1/9/2008 6:55:44 PM)
Obviously it all comes down to what your expectations are. If you expect public play and to be "out there" then I would think you would seek the same in a partner. I would guess it would be relatively easy to find out if someone has been active in the scene in their local community. I think there are a great deal of people who value their privacy....You want to talk to someone that I have been with? First off, I wouldn't probably reveal that info and I don't think the women that I know would be overjoyed to take the call. When dating vanilla I always ask for references from the woman, I would call them immediately......Hi, you don't know me but I was wondering if Susie is some sort of psycho bitch from Hell? One more thing, did you ever nail her in the can?....Click.

Focus50 -> RE: References (1/10/2008 9:54:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sugarplumsub Hi E/everyone. I am very new to D/s and just sort of finding my feet. A few Doms have said in messages that they could provide references if i require them. What are peoples views on this? Is it normal practice? Would you feel like you were interviewing for a job if you were asked to provide references and be offended? Or is it a reasonable precaution? I am really not sure how i feel about it, just a question that has arisen so wanted to see what people thought. All replies welcomed, many thanks, sugar x References (or not) are a matter of your own intelligence and abilities - and what you're looking for. If you're looking for an exclusive, personal/private relationship etc, a 3rd party reference isn't worth a cracker. And frankly, I'd be dubious of anyone who produces a reference to ingratiate themselves into your life on a premise that 'X' or 'Y' person (or both) reckons he's a good bloke. How that hell do strangers (to you) know what you're looking for??? Personal relationships are about what attracts you (both of you) and you're primarily guided by your own instincts. Generally, if someone gives off a vibe that makes you wanna run for cover, I'd suggest that's all the reference you'll ever need. If, on the other hand, you're just looking for casual liasons with virtual strangers sharing a common interest which may involve putting yourself at some risk, then a wise person would gather any information available, including references - even from other strangers. This is how you access the "grape vine" - a solitary referee may have a motive to mislead you but several referees will help develop a common theme about the party you're interested in. IMO, if you're just dealing with a solitary individual, then the best reference is the name of someone you can actually talk to; to ask the questions that are important to you - as against a written reference that only has answers that are important to the person offering the reference. But NEVER ignore your own instincts - with or without an accompanying reference. And for the record, I neither ask for nor offer references myself. Only exception has been a few private functions where a 3rd party reference was a condition of entry. Focus.

came4U -> RE: References (1/12/2008 2:22:25 PM)
I wouldn't ask to talk to someone a guy has f*cked in the past. How cheezy. I got my own gut instincts tyvm. My gut never lies when it comes to feeling 'creeped out'. no references required here.

SirJohnMandevill -> RE: References (1/12/2008 3:43:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan What information would references impart to another? Reliability of a submissive or dominant? That they are honest and trust worthy? That they are who they claim to be? That they have engaged in x, y and z? Their level of experience? That they are 'real'? All this only tells a person how they have interacted with the person that provided the reference, a reference, no matter how well intentioned, can tell another how a person will likely interact with them. No, but that person can provide a different set of eyes...eyes that may be more objective due to time. I've offered several potential submissives my former sub's e-mail (with her encouragement, BTW). One contacted her, the others said they prefer their own observations. I say put the offer out there for a potential partner to take or dismiss. Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

sugarplumsub -> RE: References (1/13/2008 1:22:51 PM)
Just wanted to say a thank you to everyone who has replied, you have given me much food for thought!

Justme696 -> RE: References (1/13/2008 1:28:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: sugarplumsub Hi E/everyone. I am very new to D/s and just sort of finding my feet. A few Doms have said in messages that they could provide references if i require them. What are peoples views on this? Is it normal practice? Would you feel like you were interviewing for a job if you were asked to provide references and be offended? Or is it a reasonable precaution? I am really not sure how i feel about it, just a question that has arisen so wanted to see what people thought. All replies welcomed, many thanks, sugar x References (or not) are a matter of your own intelligence and abilities - and what you're looking for. If you're looking for an exclusive, personal/private relationship etc, a 3rd party reference isn't worth a cracker. And frankly, I'd be dubious of anyone who produces a reference to ingratiate themselves into your life on a premise that 'X' or 'Y' person (or both) reckons he's a good bloke. How that hell do strangers (to you) know what you're looking for??? Personal relationships are about what attracts you (both of you) and you're primarily guided by your own instincts. Generally, if someone gives off a vibe that makes you wanna run for cover, I'd suggest that's all the reference you'll ever need. If, on the other hand, you're just looking for casual liasons with virtual strangers sharing a common interest which may involve putting yourself at some risk, then a wise person would gather any information available, including references - even from other strangers. This is how you access the "grape vine" - a solitary referee may have a motive to mislead you but several referees will help develop a common theme about the party you're interested in. IMO, if you're just dealing with a solitary individual, then the best reference is the name of someone you can actually talk to; to ask the questions that are important to you - as against a written reference that only has answers that are important to the person offering the reference. But NEVER ignore your own instincts - with or without an accompanying reference. And for the record, I neither ask for nor offer references myself. Only exception has been a few private functions where a 3rd party reference was a condition of entry. Focus. I already thought the human touch to a relation was lost. Glad you brought it back

Redoubt -> RE: References (1/13/2008 2:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs Dear sugarplumslave, Ladies and Gentlemen; References are only as good as the source of/for references. Character references are as good as those who personally know a person and deals with them more than on an occassion. To me, there is never a reference good enough if my gut instincts tell me otherwise. It is indeed fact, that what I consider good may not be good for another, etc. It boils down to a personal selection and choice for the person making decisions for themselves. In the Internet world, I really do not hold solid support for just 'screen names' as one can go from one site to another and, though the screen name might be the same--might be someone totally different on each one of those sites. In addition, individuals can have multiple computers and multiple connections to an ISP and literally carry on a conversation with themselves and can/could/may/would lead a reasonable person down a skewed perception of what is going on. On the Internet, its really dealing with a lot of assumptions and a 'faith' that people for the most part are acting in good intentions. However, I prefer face to face meetings and meet my friends and or associates. I am active in my community in different areas. I could give many qualified references if necessary. However, in most cases my references have not been contacted as far as I know. Most individuals I am introduced to, are introduced by those who are well known in the scene and or lifestyle themselves and, I suspect it is an unspoken reference when a personal introduction is made by someone I know to me and their comments. Totally with LH here. And would like to add, if the reference isn't confirmable, then proceed with even more caution. Providing emailed references is effectively worthless, as they can lend credibility where none is deserved. Trust your instincts first, unless there's a telephone number and a voice at the other end. Even then, what's good for one may not be for another. Offering unconfirmable references is a good clue that you could be dealing with a scary person.

antipode -> RE: References (1/13/2008 5:36:54 PM)
References I don't need. I do an online criminal & bankrupcy background check when I can, which I will tell the sub about, and I have been known to take a sub to my doctor for an HIV/VD check, if they haven't had one. But references... they come from someone's perception, and unless you know that person really well, they're useless.

OldBastardly1 -> RE: References (1/14/2008 5:21:41 AM)
I tend to agree with Bita on this. References are not the only tool to use. I am active in my community but also travel to other areas. A reference from my "home club" to the potential club I want to attend is often very well accepted and appreciated. I have seen a few clubs that you can only get in with references or be sponsored from a member. I don't do references from ex's. I offer to provide them from community leaders, and am willing to give them, on whatever level is needed to help the sub feel SAFER to meet me. I encourage them to network & ask others that I have not offered to speak for me. I have nothing to hide. I don't push the issue with references, but I do offer them as A tool for the sub to use. References can also help minimize the amountm of time & energy that coukld be wasted on a non-compatible person. BTW.... I do not do online, so my interest and references would be real-life.

LadyPact -> RE: References (1/14/2008 7:52:40 AM)
I'm very much with John, Celeste, and Lady Hugs on this. I use references, have references, and give references only for those I know real time and not for anything on line. Just this past weekend, I was asked for a reference for someone that I had talked with by internet only. The best I was able to do was to say that I found him to be a pleasant person, and let Me contact someone for you that I knew he played with, to see if she could give a first hand account. I explained that I wasn't able to give a first hand reference, and I hoped she understood why. In My own case, yes, I'm happy to have folks asked Me for references who have seen Me play. Would you like them to be male, female, Dom/me, sub, young or old? For Heaven's sake, don't take My word on it alone that I have the skill (for lack of a better term) I say I have without being able to back that up. Give Me the pleasure of introducing you to people I have played with. Allow Me the opportunity to show you, in any way that I can, that your safety is one of My utmost concerns and I don't take My craft lightly. While I'm at it, here's My ID.

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