RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them?

RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 11:32:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I do not know who said that, but I do not think that is right. In fact if one were to look at penis size stereotype and Black men, Black men do not have larger penises than any other people on average. That is just one example. Jewish people are not greedy tightwads either. You obviously haven't met my Master (ha, kidding). This does bode the question though, of where stereotypes come from, in any facet? Is it because of displayed behavior? It is what we want to see or believe? I think the stereotype of honesty and integrity in the D/s or BDSM lifestyle may come from fantasy chat room conversations - the same place of ancient training homes in Europe, kind of stuff. How many Yahoo chatrooms used to exist of various "Homesteads" in which words like honor and integrity were bandied about like gospel? It's a fine notion, but hardly reality. And perhaps that is the case for any other stereotype as well. I always thought it was a way that people could feel safer in doing WIITWD. In other words, "Let me tie you up and beat you and control your entire life, really, you can trust me I'm a Master"

BitaTruble -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 11:49:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst Most people I talk to have no issues about sex, talking about it, bragging about it, mentioning cock size.. heck.. even my mother jokes about bulges in jeans. I wonder where the idea that nillas are prudish, closed minded and shun sex came into being? It sure isn't evident in the people I know. Kyst Kyst, I'm just using your post to jump off with a thought I have because it's been mentioned several times and your's was the last one I read, so easy to quote. :) I found it just a bit curious that most of the posts talked about how open vanillas are in talking about sex, but my example included many other aspects of BDSM outside of sex and save one, no one else spoke about those additional aspects. I have a few very close vanilla people to whom I can speak about some of these aspects, but by and large, none of my vanilla friends wants to talk about the great bruise I got, the whipping that sent me into subspace, or the CBT workshop I attended. I can't share these parts of myself because, with those few exceptions, no one wants me to share them and even though I joke about being 'mostly' consentual, I truly don't put myself out there and get into the faces of people who would be frightened or upset about it. If I go down to the local knitting circle, there's nothing that would be taboo about knitting so we can talk about all aspects of knitting from types of stitch down to the best needles to use for sweaters. Am I to understand that there are no taboos and that vanillas (with whom generic you are acquainted) feel just as comfortable with speaking to you about all aspects of BDSM? After reading all the varied responses, I'm beginning to think I've missed some sort of revolution or something! Celeste

sublizzie -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 11:50:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble It is often said that there is some grain of truth to sterotypes, so if the stereotype, the assumption, the expectation from someone entering BDSM (and from many who have been here a while as well) is one of honesty, integrity and openess.. from where does it stem? Some stereotypes have bits of truth in them but some are fabrications based on other people's fears or hopes. When I began in this lifestyle I believed in the whole "honesty, integrity and openess..." idea. I wanted it to be true. I quickly learned, the hard way, that it was no more true of this lifestyle than any other because people are people. Part of it is because people want to belong to a group that is all that is good in the world (while still being able to do what others consider naughty). We all want to belong to an exclusive group that will give us cache. That is how the whole "kinky is better than vanilla"thinking evolved. It's not better or worst, it just is. This is not exclusive to BDSMers. I find it in any group I know. Doesn't matter if it's kinky folks, Christians, domestic abuse survivors, recovering addicts/etc, cooks, or crafters. Everyone has their own special spin on what they are passionate about and it becomes the "best". They forget that it is best for them but not necessarily for everyone else. I do it too.

Justme696 -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 11:53:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst Most people I talk to have no issues about sex, talking about it, bragging about it, mentioning cock size.. heck.. even my mother jokes about bulges in jeans. I wonder where the idea that nillas are prudish, closed minded and shun sex came into being? It sure isn't evident in the people I know. Kyst Kyst, I'm just using your post to jump off with a thought I have because it's been mentioned several times and your's was the last one I read, so easy to quote. :) I found it just a bit curious that most of the posts talked about how open vanillas are in talking about sex, but my example included many other aspects of BDSM outside of sex and save one, no one else spoke about those additional aspects. I have a few very close vanilla people to whom I can speak about some of these aspects, but by and large, none of my vanilla friends wants to talk about the great bruise I got, the whipping that sent me into subspace, or the CBT workshop I attended. I can't share these parts of myself because, with those few exceptions, no one wants me to share them and even though I joke about being 'mostly' consentual, I truly don't put myself out there and get into the faces of people who would be frightened or upset about it. If I go down to the local knitting circle, there's nothing that would be taboo about knitting so we can talk about all aspects of knitting from types of stitch down to the best needles to use for sweaters. Am I to understand that there are no taboos and that vanillas (with whom generic you are acquainted) feel just as comfortable with speaking to you about all aspects of BDSM? After reading all the varied responses, I'm beginning to think I've missed some sort of revolution or something! Celeste True, there are more aspects. Some people I know and know I am a Master/Dom don't understand why the girl does obey all i say. The thought of a slave/sub makes them see Africans on fields badly whipped and abused. When I explain the girl offers her service, then they say she is weak. Although I never met persons so interesting as slave/subs. I respect them.

sublizzie -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 11:57:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble If I go down to the local knitting circle, there's nothing that would be taboo about knitting so we can talk about all aspects of knitting from types of stitch down to the best needles to use for sweaters. Celeste I'm betting the local kinky crafters group would be fine with discussions about your bruises or what you've learned about CBT.

BitaTruble -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 11:58:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie This does bode the question though, of where stereotypes come from, in any facet? Ya nut! That was my original question! ::laughs:: quote: Is it because of displayed behavior? It is what we want to see or believe? I think the stereotype of honesty and integrity in the D/s or BDSM lifestyle may come from fantasy chat room conversations - the same place of ancient training homes in Europe, kind of stuff. How many Yahoo chatrooms used to exist of various "Homesteads" in which words like honor and integrity were bandied about like gospel? It's a fine notion, but hardly reality. And perhaps that is the case for any other stereotype as well. I don't think we can blame the internet for this one, because that stereotype has been around a lot longer than the Internet. I think part of that stems from the same sorts of roadblocks that the gays used to face (and sometimes still face.) You didn't tell unless you thought you could trust the person not to out you. So, if We Are Them why are so many people still in the closet? ::pondering:: Celeste

RCdc -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:01:54 PM)
Celeste I do think there are taboos that so called vanilla friends have. But so do those who are hardcore BDSMers. I have had groovy conversations with friends who do not participate - and I have had discussion with BDSM peeps and particularly online here - who balk at some forms or acts - CM is a great example to use - you must have seen the threads where people find subjects completely taboo. Like I have said, I do not see a seperation, but a varying degree of sexual and ethical awareness. the.dark.

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:09:46 PM)
quote: Ya nut! That was my original question! ::laughs:: Yeah, well, I was "dropping" and it was late and I was consumed with my ADD so I took the scenic route to actually figure that out. [8D] quote: I don't think we can blame the internet for this one, because that stereotype has been around a lot longer than the Internet. I think part of that stems from the same sorts of roadblocks that the gays used to face (and sometimes still face.) You didn't tell unless you thought you could trust the person not to out you. So, if We Are Them why are so many people still in the closet? ::pondering:: Celeste Because there are less of "us" in mainstream society than "non-us" (gawd, did that make ANY sense?). And you mentioned yourself the roadblocks that gays faced. They faced such roadblocks until society got used to the concept (and in many places they still are not). That's the point I was making about "wedlock" and stuff. In general, people hate change. New concepts - especially those concepts that were once deemed "wrong" or "evil" or "sinful" are frightening to people. People tend to fear, "If I accept this, then what's next?" and so they resist. Look how far we have come since the 60s, after all, as a society. We have made incredible change. Just because we're not "there" yet, as an all accepting and tolerant society does not mean we are not on our way (are there too many negatives in that sentence?). As for your knitting example, no knitting is not a taboo subject but I assure you if you start initiating those conversations with non-knitters, you will bore them to tears. [8D] Note: I reread what I wrote and if it makes sense to anyone out there, then kudos to you! On that note, I'm closing CM for now since I'm confusing even myself!

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:15:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Celeste I do think there are taboos that so called vanilla friends have. But so do those who are hardcore BDSMers. I have had groovy conversations with friends who do not participate - and I have had discussion with BDSM peeps and particularly online here - who balk at some forms or acts - CM is a great example to use - you must have seen the threads where people find subjects completely taboo. Like I have said, I do not see a seperation, but a varying degree of sexual and ethical awareness. the.dark. One last note. This post got me thinking (scary). It wasn't until recently that I started "outing" myself to friends & family, because I finally became totally comfortable and accepting with who I am. So, in thinking "we" as a "BDSM community" (I really hate that term) are different or seperate than "them" a "vanilla community" (I hate that term, too)...perhaps we only see such a difference in our own minds because we have not fully accepted who we are as a whole yet? I only put that out there since that was the case for me. I have since told totally "non-kinky" friends about some of what Mr. Wonderful and I do, and they are accepting and fascinated and want to hear more. I am not a different breed of person than them; I just have a relationship that is structured differently than theirs.

Justme696 -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:17:33 PM)
quote: I am not a different breed of person than them; I just have a relationship that is structured differently than theirs. that says it all i guess. Well put

BitaTruble -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Celeste I do think there are taboos that so called vanilla friends have. But so do those who are hardcore BDSMers. I have had groovy conversations with friends who do not participate - and I have had discussion with BDSM peeps and particularly online here - who balk at some forms or acts - CM is a great example to use - you must have seen the threads where people find subjects completely taboo. Like I have said, I do not see a seperation, but a varying degree of sexual and ethical awareness. the.dark. Absolutely, but I would venture to say that when the vast majority of CM folks find a subject too taboo to discuss (and is still within TOS, of course), the vast majority of vanillas are probably going to feel the same way about it. Of course, there will be exceptions, but unless and until there are subjects which fora members consider taboo that vanillas don't, I don't think I can buy into We Are Them. I think it goes beyond sexual awareness and delves into the comfort of the individual. There are going to be a lot of people (from any lifestyle) who just don't 'want' to be aware of what's possible because it touches on nerves which they are not comfortable having touched. Celeste

RCdc -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:53:41 PM)
I am going to use an example from personal expereince. I kiss Darcy. I know he loves it. I love it. It's all good. It's not a particularly squick inducing activity (well, unless it's your parents[;)]) and it's mainstream all person freeforall. Now I will kiss him in public. Full on, tongues and yumminess. Now, I won't do it inappropriately. But I will do it. Because Darcy loves it. Public display of affection. Yet I have had full on discussions on CM and with other people off CM who view it as completely inappropriate. Collars in public - there is another one. Some think it completely wrong to wear without the consent of others? WTF? It's the BDSM peeps who are getting all huffed up with their problems on it. I wear collars in public and without exception, I get nothing but admiration for wearing one from non bdsm friends. I have friends who participate in golden showers. or going commando - Had discussions over it. Are they BDSMers? They do not identify as such and just see it as something fun to do. To them it is purely sex and all yumyum. So again, I still cant change my mind that its simply different levels of knowledge and comfort zones. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 12:55:51 PM)
Knows you are closing - but you rock anyway....[:D] the.dark.

Justme696 -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 1:01:32 PM)
Isn't it weird we discuss this so often, instead of enjoying just who we are and what we like? (well we do enjoy..but you know what i mean)

Missokyst -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 5:12:32 PM)
Not at all. I am saying that they are not as hesitant to be sexual as has been projected. Case in point, I am probably not going to discuss in details how anal sex feels to me with just anyone. I MIGHT mention it casually if the topic is presented, but would I talk about it to people simply because I know they engage in bdsm? Nope. But my sisters and mon used to huddle in her bedroom talking about men, dick size and who was getting what from whom. FREAKY! LOL I wouldn't want to have been in the room with them. But they, in their nilla way, often talked about sexual things reserved for people they know well. I do that too.. reserve it for people I know well. Being into bdsm does not automatically mean one is somehow sexually freer. It just means what turns us on is not quite what flips my nilla relatives switches. We are not special, nor different, it is only that things which turn us on are wired in another direction. Kyst quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst Most people I talk to have no issues about sex, talking about it, bragging about it, mentioning cock size.. heck.. even my mother jokes about bulges in jeans. I wonder where the idea that nillas are prudish, closed minded and shun sex came into being? It sure isn't evident in the people I know. Kyst Kyst, I'm just using your post to jump off with a thought I have because it's been mentioned several times and your's was the last one I read, so easy to quote. :) I found it just a bit curious that most of the posts talked about how open vanillas are in talking about sex, but my example included many other aspects of BDSM outside of sex and save one, no one else spoke about those additional aspects. I have a few very close vanilla people to whom I can speak about some of these aspects, but by and large, none of my vanilla friends wants to talk about the great bruise I got, the whipping that sent me into subspace, or the CBT workshop I attended. I can't share these parts of myself because, with those few exceptions, no one wants me to share them and even though I joke about being 'mostly' consentual, I truly don't put myself out there and get into the faces of people who would be frightened or upset about it. If I go down to the local knitting circle, there's nothing that would be taboo about knitting so we can talk about all aspects of knitting from types of stitch down to the best needles to use for sweaters. Am I to understand that there are no taboos and that vanillas (with whom generic you are acquainted) feel just as comfortable with speaking to you about all aspects of BDSM? After reading all the varied responses, I'm beginning to think I've missed some sort of revolution or something! Celeste

Kirren -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 5:29:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Maybe, at least with the cheating part, its the definition of cheating being applied? How many "Vanilla" people would say a poly relationship is cheating? How many couples may cheat because they have the need for which others create a poly relationship, whatever that need may be? Its really hard to cheat on someone that lets you sleep with other people as long as you follow standard safety guidlines, almost impossible, especially if she likes stories *Maybe its not that the community is more open, maybe its just that its that much harder to break the rules?* I agree. It is harder to break the rules in a poly home. I think that may make for a more..amicable situation for some, but at the same hand, could also harbor ill feelings for some. In answer to the OP, I feel that we are all the same people, we just see things differently. This happens. While some of us do tend to be more open, some of us are more closed off. It again, depends on the person/people. Its really a matter of perspective...at least I think so if I am understanding the question right.

Kirren -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 5:32:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr In that case... You have to be pretty open with yourself to first admit that you like tying people up and whipping them, and then to also admit that it doesn't mean you will become a serial killer or some such. Therefore it would stand to reason that after you make this type of discovery you should be a better person for it. fixin my spellin So, the openess, the honesty .. that comes from within. Being open and honest with ourselves after, perhaps, struggling to accept what we may think of as a quirk in our own character? I can buy that and even pay some tax on it. :) Thank you so much, Asher .. this is where I hoped my OP would lead. [sm=banana.gif] Celeste This lifestyle, I think, is about alot of things, trust, love, many many emotions. But I think in some way we are all some what extream...and therefore at the primal level, it is about breaking social, mental and religious taboo. So...yes, being open means alot. I think its imperative to be open. I mean think about it...you meet a Dom/me or sub that you like, you say..."what are you into? What are your limits?" The very birth of the relationship requires that the person open their mind and bear the darkest things in the mind to a new person. They have to say..."Hey...I like to be pissed on. I like to beat people, I like to be told Im a dirty little slut...ect..." How many times do you hear that at star bucks?

MadRabbit -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 6:02:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble It is often said that there is some grain of truth to sterotypes, so if the stereotype, the assumption, the expectation from someone entering BDSM (and from many who have been here a while as well) is one of honesty, integrity and openess.. from where does it stem? I haven't read the rest of the replies, but here is my opinion on this issue. No, there isn't. It's no different then any other group of people who have something in common and here is why... In a sense, you could find some truth to the notion that we are more "open" and "accepting" of kinky desires, but I find this to be the same with any group of people shares a common interest. Conservatives welcome and are open to conservative interests. Christians are welcome and open to Christian interests. The "openness" and "accepting" aspect ends when the viewpoints or interests expressed are no longer in line with the common interests of the groups. For example, any viewpoints not in align with the catch-phrase "Your Kink Is Not My Kink, but Your Kink Is Okay" are met with disdain, disapproval, and censorship when expressed. Other examples would be a feminist expressing views that a female submissive is debasing herself, a Christian fundamentalist expressing anti-homosexual or anti-female polygamy viewpoints, or even just a hardcore conservative with the opinion that the things that we do aid to the destruction of much needed social traditions. I have noticed a general opinion among our Gorean neighbors that seems to goes against the notion that we are more "open" and "accepting". I would venture a guess to say that their views on female dominance and male submission might have something to do with that. The point I am getting at is that when viewed with a large enough scope, I don't find much evidence that we are more "open" and "accepting" than any other group with shared interests. We are just "open" and "accepting" of our shared interests. Honesty? I can't say I find that to be an exceptional trait in our group compared to any other group. If we mean "honest" in the sense of our "kinky sexual habits", then I would say we are defiantly very honest. I won't say we are honest from the virtue of honesty, but rather honest because we are among people that we can be honest with. Much in the same way that I imagine the Ku Klux Klan is "honest" and "open" about their viewpoints when they are among members of their group, but not quite as "honest" about those things in normal society. If we mean "honest" and "open" in the sense of maybe our professional lives and occupations or "honest" and "open" about opinions we might have that don't fall within the lines of BDSM political correctness, I would say no. I don't see any exceptional displays of "honesty" and "openness" regarding those things. Integrity? It probably depends on what community you are talking about. Every person who has a BDSM interest? Definitely not. A small community in the public scene? Maybe. With the huge focus on "discretion" and "secrecy", integrity would be an important part of the preservation of both. I imagine you could probably find more of a percentage of people with this virtue at a public group since the one's who lack it are weeded out or not welcome.

catize -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 7:29:55 PM)
~Fast reply~ I work in the medical field. When I am at dinner with other medical folks the conversation sometimes gets into realms that make the non-medical diners drop their forks and say ‘yuck!’ Does it need to be divisive that I can enjoy dinner while discussing yucky stuff and another person can’t? I think that our comfort level in talking about ‘cocks, pussies, bruises’ etc. is because on the forum we know that for the most part what we discuss is a shared interest. Even so, there are things that I do that I am not comfortable sharing on the boards. I agree with ownedgirlie’s point that it is probably that I am unsure that it is really okay and I project that uncertainty. The “US” umbrella has its differences; we are not perfectly like minded. In that regard we are very much the same as any group you can think of. I don’t think it is wrong to strive for the ideal of openness, honesty and integrity. But I do believe it is dangerous to assume that every one of “US” does so.

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM & Vanilla: Us VS Them or We Are Them? (1/14/2008 10:05:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Knows you are closing - but you rock anyway....[:D] the.dark. You rock, too! [sm=flowers.gif]

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