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RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 1:59:22 PM

EponasChylde

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/31/2007
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quote:

How many of those seeking an abortion,are feminists,think about politics or know what feminism is about?I doubt,very few,if any.

I agree. I have never had an abortion, but I would have one in a heartbeat. I HATE babies! My desire for an abortion hasn't got diddly crap to do with feminism. It's about not wanting to carry a wretched parasite in my stomach or ruin my life by having to care for a brat that saps all my time and resources.

I believe the decline in abortion is due to many things. For one thing, contraceptives (GOOD ones)are cheaper and more easily available. Also, it is become easier to attain a sterilization. This is due, at least in part, to the new Essure tubal, which is both non-surgical and not requiring of anathestia (Sp?). This makes the procedure easier to attain (both in terms of finding a docter who'll do it and getting an insurance provider to cover the cost) in relation to the traditional or lap-type tubals which were classified as high risk procedures and hence relegated to use by only those of older age or those with many children. In other words doctors and insurance companies would only perform the procedure for those who NEEDED the procedure for some reason, and not for those who merely WANTED the procedure.

When I was 18, the Essure wasn't available and no doc would touch the idea of giving a young, childless woman a tubal. With the advent of Essure, it was much easier to attain and I sucessfully had my tubes tied at age 23.

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Post #: 21

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 2:06:51 PM

Bound2One

Posts: 614
Joined: 1/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cautiousiasub

More effective contraceptives, safe haven laws, more informed choices through better counseling in unexpected pregnancies. I doubt it's a matter of women not having a choice in carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term. Women still have the option of abortion, but there are other options out there too.

I think it's also a matter of teenage pregnancy rates dropping. I don't know if sex ed is 'doing its thing' or not, but something seems to be.

(in reply to cautiousiasub)

Post #: 22

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 2:48:27 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

quote:

The Guttmacher Institute, which surveyed abortion providers nationwide, said there likely were several reasons for the decline, including more effective use of contraceptives, lower levels of unintended pregnancy

If this is so then its all good.

quote:

and greater difficulty obtaining abortions in some parts of the country.

Unfortunately due to this many will choose to go abroad or go to back street clinics where risks are higher. Infection, botched abortions etc etc.

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Post #: 23

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 7:12:16 PM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
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I understand that it's easy to say 'if you don't want one, don't have it, but leave the rest of us alone'.
Unfortunately, human lives are at stake.
It's kind of like saying, 'if you don't want to participate in ethnic cleansing, that is your choice, but leave those of us who do alone.'
Uhm...
I'm sorry, but I can't.
I understand the reasons some people have done so, and my heart goes out to those who have made that decision.

Eponas; if you do truly feel as you stated in the first paragraph in your post, it is a good thing that your tubes are tied. I do feel for you, dear, and will give my um's an extra hug tonight.

Nothing is black and white, but, abortion has less shades of grey than some other issues we face. I do realize that there ARE some though. Just not enough to allow me to condone it, though.

~Christina

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 24

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 9:13:15 PM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EponasChylde

I have never had an abortion, but I would have one in a heartbeat. I HATE babies! My desire for an abortion hasn't got diddly crap to do with feminism. It's about not wanting to carry a wretched parasite in my stomach or ruin my life by having to care for a brat that saps all my time and resources.

Jeeze. Someone really doesn't appreciate the life and resources they were given. =/

(in reply to EponasChylde)

Post #: 25

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 9:51:08 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Have you procreated yet, CL? After all, you've been able to for quite a few years now: I hope you'll make up for lost time soon. You want to show you appreciate 'the resources you were given' and all that. Right?

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Post #: 26

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 9:57:16 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

greetings curiouslord and christina,

there are tons of people in this world who don't like kids and don't want to procreate - they just don't all happen to express themselves so virulently. he has grown children and hates being around kids now. i love kids...some of the time...when i can give them back. even if i were physically capable of carrying a child, i would not want to have one, and if i got pregnant, my abortion would primarily be because i don't want to have a kid, not because my body isn't capable of making it through a pregnancy.

just because one is born with ovaries doesn't give us an obligation to use them (aside from abortion, even, your posts come across as though it's somehow socially or morally irresponsible to choose not to have children) and it doesn't make us cruel, heartless people not to love kids.

respectfully,
annabelle.

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(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 27

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:02:57 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

Unfortunately, human lives are at stake.

Many think a pregnancy does not equate a human life, but that it just constitutes the premise of one. Therefore, the termination of a pregnancy is preventing a life from beginning, but it's not ending a life. It's allowing the life of the mother to continue without the hindrance of an unwanted pregnancy.

quote:

It's kind of like saying, 'if you don't want to participate in ethnic cleansing, that is your choice, but leave those of us who do alone.'

Absolutely not: ethnic cleansing is illegal. Abortion, as far as I know, is legal in this country.

quote:

I understand the reasons some people have done so, and my heart goes out to those who have made that decision.

Thank you: it wasn't an easy decision to make, but it was the only viable option for us at the time it was taken.

quote:

Eponas; if you do truly feel as you stated in the first paragraph in your post, it is a good thing that your tubes are tied. I do feel for you, dear, and will give my um's an extra hug tonight.

I think it took guts for Eponas to come out and tell us of her admittedly harsh view of pregnancy. I don't judge her, because that's the choice she made for herself.

It's probably great news that the abortion rate is going down, but we must make sure we don't take our rights for granted. Let's be vigilant in ensuring nobody robs us of what is, after all, our right to dispose of our bodies as we see fit.

In the light of the matters discussed on these BDSM forum boards, where people argue ad nauseam over the nature of slavery and over the rights of slaves to let others dispose of their bodies for them, I think this is a particularly case sensitive issue.

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Post #: 28

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:13:45 PM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

just because one is born with ovaries doesn't give us an obligation to use them

It's not the "with ovaries" part which strikes me as endebting us to future generations. It's the "born" part.

I just hate the "it's a chauvanist policy" bit that seems to come up. I haven't noticed a trend of men for pro-life nor women for pro-choice; there seems to be a good split. And it's not just female submissives on the pro-life side.

There are plenty of guys out there who, too, would love to shirk off responsibility for their offspring. I'm sure, if men could have their offspring (and thus their responsibility) terminated via abortion, many would.

A child is a life changing event for both men and women, so, please, no ovary-based arguments. It's the child's life that's a concern; I can entirely sympathize with your point that a child coming into the world is a great responsibility and a likely burden.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 29

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:40:29 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
I agree with the ban on late-term abortion. Once you get into the 3rd trimester, you are really walking a very fine line with this debate on whether a fetus is alive. Because a fetus can live outside it's mother at 6 1/2 months and have a pretty good chance of living under a doctor's care. There is brain activity and the fetus can hear at 6 months.
To say a baby isn't alive until it is born at 9 months is very, very ignorant of science. I'm sorry if that offends you but I've taken numerous biology courses and human development in college and there is no way you are going to convince me that a fetus at 6 months isn't alive. If you stick a light into the womb at 7 months, the fetus will follow it with his own eyes. It has been proven over and over again that a fetus can hear at 6 months and even identify their mother's voice. How the hell do you classify that as not being alive?

Late term abortion scares the crap out of me. My nephew was born at 7 months into the pregnancy. He is now a thriving 9 year old. He was sooooo tiny when he was born (just under 2 pounds) and didn't go home from the hospital until he reached 4 pounds, but talk about a loved and very wanted baby! He was adopted, by the way. His birth mother developed toxemia while pregnant and was forced to deliver early. Her health was at stake, but she chose to give the little guy a chance by delivering him, rather than by partly delivering him breech style up to his head and then sucking his brain out (that's how it's done, after all). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

I read somewhere (and I don't have citations at this time) that "the health of the mother" included things like depression, anxiety, etc., and was not limited to life threatening illnesses. That's one of the parts that disturbs me.

For the record, I'm not a fan of abortion, but I respect other poeple's choice to have one. I don't, however, support late term abortion unless the mother's life is threatened. Even then, in such cases where early delivery can occur, why not choose that?

As for abortions levels going down, my first guess would be it's due to the advancement and availability of birth control methods. And I don't think that's such a bad thing, either. Several friends of mine who have had abortions felt it was the right thing to do, yet still didn't feel good about it.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 1/18/2008 10:41:26 PM >

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 30

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:40:37 PM

Bound2One

Posts: 614
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Many think a pregnancy does not equate a human life, but that it just constitutes the premise of one. Therefore, the termination of a pregnancy is preventing a life from beginning, but it's not ending a life. It's allowing the life of the mother to continue without the hindrance of an unwanted pregnancy.

Well ... if many think a pregnancy does not equate a human life, but just a premise of one, and an abortion is preventing a life, there are many also who think a pregnancy does equate a human life, and abortion is ending a life.

My POV is that there is no *right* answer. Should abortion be legal? ::sigh:: I have to say yes, simply because my morality should not rule another's. Unlike another poster, I do see tons of gray in the abortion debate. I can sympathize with both sides of the argument. But at the end of the day, I have to say that my morality should not rule another's. But I'm not 100% comfortable with that. Hell, there are some that believe my use of the birth control pill is sinful.

I am VERY happy to see that abortion rates are down - that can only be seen as a good thing. I can't imagine any reasonable person seriously being happy that they underwent an abortion.

I just have to laugh at the vehemence shown by Eponas about hating kids. I've never heard of someone speaking in those terms before. I'm glad you were able to find a doc who would do a tubal on you so young - someone with your strong feelings on it should never have kids, and you took the responsible action. Heck, I have 3 UMs. There are plenty of kids out there that I've come across that I truly dislike. But my own? Nah. Gotta love 'em.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 31

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:44:39 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

greetings curiouslord,

i still don't understand how we are somehow indebted to future generations and how that makes us obligated to have children, though (male or female). i can understand (to a point, though i may not agree with it) the argument that if you do end up pregnant, you have a responsibility and it's your fault for getting pregnant and so you're obligated to have the child, but i don't understand what's wrong with choosing not to have children at all, or why one should choose to have children. personally, if i were ever to decide to have children, even if i had a totally healthy body, i'd adopt rather than have my own - there are so many unwanted children in the world that (while i don't judge other people this way) i would personally feel selfish if i chose to bring more in the world when i could give those already here a caring place.

anyway, i digress. i'm still lost on what about being born makes us indebted to procreate (particularly considering that the world is overpopulated as it is).

respectfully,
annabelle.

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(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 32

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:47:54 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: EponasChylde

I have never had an abortion, but I would have one in a heartbeat. I HATE babies! My desire for an abortion hasn't got diddly crap to do with feminism. It's about not wanting to carry a wretched parasite in my stomach or ruin my life by having to care for a brat that saps all my time and resources.

Jeeze. Someone really doesn't appreciate the life and resources they were given. =/

Wrong. Somebody really does appreciate her resources enough to know she won't abuse them. People who do not want children should not have children.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 33

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/18/2008 10:50:57 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

People who do not want children should not have children.

so, so very well said.

(i am just loving all your wisdom today.)

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i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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Post #: 34

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/19/2008 1:37:17 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

Life, whether one considers it "human" or not, begins at conception by definition. What one empathizes with, what one considers to be human.. why, this is up to one's own feelings.

For me, a fetus is just an even younger baby still in the mother's tummy. It's human, in my considerations. It's also a high demand on resources and such. However, my feeling is that.. which one of us wasn't the same? Were any of us born without someone giving that up for us?

So, to me, it's more about giving the young life what we've been able to receive.

Prevening a life from coming into being, however.. such as with condoms and birth control.. I have nothing against; I think those are good things. It's the taking of already existent life that disgusts me.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 35

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/19/2008 1:39:40 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Wrong. Somebody really does appreciate her resources enough to know she won't abuse them. People who do not want children should not have children.

Agreed; this is why we have contraceptives, and I've cheered their effectiveness.

However, what makes a baby that's just born so different from when it was in the mother's tummy just a minute beforehand? They both strike me as young humans. The slaying of either strikes me as henious.

I do not see abortion as preventing a human life; I see it as the taking of it.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 36

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/19/2008 3:44:19 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EponasChylde

It's about not wanting to carry a wretched parasite in my stomach or ruin my life by having to care for a brat that saps all my time and resources.

Hello EponasChylde,

For what it's worth, I think you put forward a reasonable point of view. I, too, have no desire to have children (aligned with the reasons you put forward).

If I was with a woman who fell pregnant, I would recommend an abortion.

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(in reply to EponasChylde)

Post #: 37

RE: US abortions at lowest level since 1974 - 1/19/2008 7:44:50 AM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

greetings curiouslord and christina,

there are tons of people in this world who don't like kids and don't want to procreate - they just don't all happen to express themselves so virulently. he has grown children and hates being around kids now. i love kids...some of the time...when i can give them back. even if i were physically capable of carrying a child, i would not want to have one, and if i got pregnant, my abortion would primarily be because i don't want to have a kid, not because my body isn't capable of making it through a pregnancy.

just because one is born with ovaries doesn't give us an obligation to use them (aside from abortion, even, your posts come across as though it's somehow socially or morally irresponsible to choose not to have children) and it doesn't make us cruel, heartless people not to love kids.

respectfully,
annabelle.

Hi Annabelle,

Listen; my ums drive me crazy. But I love them and would not send them back. (just as aponys (sp?) would not give up on a puppy she had if it started chewing on things)
I really don't know why you think it is my opinion everyone should have them. In fact, I think a LOT less people should have them than do...
What I do think is irresponsible is not being responsible for not getting pregnant in the first place if you don't want children.
Now, if you've done your research, are responsible, and are on a birth control method that is at least 97% effective, and you've taken it exactly as you are supposed to; if you end up pregnant, and you decide to terminate that pregnancy, at least do the child a favor and do it as soon as possible.
I have seen the videos of the fetus' (fetae?) attempting to get away from the needle, and what ever other hurty thing is down there. They are obviously in distress. I couldn't live with myself had I done that.
If I didn't want children, and I did everything as mentioned above, and did the procedure early enough, I might.

~Christina

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 38

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