RE: Forced submission

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CalifChick -> RE: Forced submission (1/17/2008 11:07:52 PM)
Why does dominance require force or manipulation? Why can I not choose of my own free will to give my submission, and he to give his dominance? I disagree that exertion of authority is force. I can yield to his wishes without force. I choose to do as he wishes, he does not force me to (mentally or physically). You said without force, there is no submission, only obedience. It is with that I disagree. Cali

SubbieOnWheels -> RE: Forced submission (1/17/2008 11:16:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick Why does dominance require force or manipulation? Why can I not choose of my own free will to give my submission, and he to give his dominance? I disagree that exertion of authority is force. I can yield to his wishes without force. I choose to do as he wishes, he does not force me to (mentally or physically). You said without force, there is no submission, only obedience. It is with that I disagree. Cali I think what is happening here is a difference of opinion regarding the definition of "force." I for one think of force as used in the original question to mean non-consensual exertion of superior strength - either of mind or of body. When I go into a BDSM relationship with my eyes wide open and an understanding that force will be used, that's one thing. When I am dragged into it willy-nilly, with no idea what I'm getting into, that's quite another.

Honsoku -> RE: Forced submission (1/17/2008 11:51:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick Why does dominance require force or manipulation? Why can I not choose of my own free will to give my submission, and he to give his dominance? I disagree that exertion of authority is force. I can yield to his wishes without force. I choose to do as he wishes, he does not force me to (mentally or physically). You said without force, there is no submission, only obedience. It is with that I disagree. Cali By definition, one can not yield without something to yield to. To yield is reactive, something else has to happen first. By extension, submission is also reactive, since one has to yield in order to submit. You can freely choose to be yielding, but there has to be a force to yield to, as it is impossible to yield to nothing. Therefore, the very act of yielding implies the existence of a force. That is why, at some level, some kind of force has to be involved for there to be domination. Domination pushes, submission yields, there has to be both. Just because you agree to yield and he agrees to push, doesn't negate that both are occurring. Lets look at it from the opposite direction; what happens when you stop submitting? You resist. You can not resist without a force resist against. There must be an action for there to be a reaction, and to be an action it must have some measure of force behind it. Not every day I get to use the laws of physics in a proof [8D]

DesFIP -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 4:15:02 AM)
Beating someone into doing what you say in order to avoid more beatings is abuse. Becoming into collusion with the abuser is unfortunately common, google Stockholm Syndrome. As far as whoever claimed that submission requires obedience, that's not universal. I'm not supposed to obey to submit. I'm supposed to be emotionally transparent and tell him how I feel. For me doing what he says when I feel badly about it is being nonsubmissive. Obedience is not everyone's kink.

Justme696 -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 4:15:58 AM)
I wonder how a person knows when submitting out of fear became submitting by free will. It could be protective and habit. Is one beeing abused able to judge this? I had a slave friend once, that was abused in a relation. SHe thought in the end it was normal in a Ms relation and didn't know how to life with out.

fairerthanshe -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 5:55:43 AM)
I'm confused. You asked a hypnostist to hypnotize you and that was a stealth trance? Do you mean that she gave you instruction not to remember what happened in the trance? Please explain what this means. I'm active in NLP ( neuro linguistic programming started by Richard Bandler and John Grinder), SJ and I both are, and we use a lot of hypnotism in our power exchange relationship. It sounds like whatever trance work she did with you, that it made a huge impact on your life. I hope you find what you need, want and desire to make you fulfilled. well wishes ~ fairer than she quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveAK I was introduced to D/s in a rather odd way. I "asked" a hypnodomme to show me what it was like to be submissive... to show me my submissive side. She proceeded to attempt to force me into becoming a slave. She was very good at what is called stealth trancing, and NLP. I was a brat then and caused a lot of problems... ultimately I left her, but now I do feel the desire for a 24/7 total power exchange in my life. Did she do this? Was there just an aspect of my inner self that she brought out? I will never know. I'm not sure I want to know. Its a little erotic to think about. I guess gave my consent, but I did not totally understand what would happen. There were many times I was forced by her stern control. Do I regret meeting her, or what I've become? No. In fact I miss her and the amount of control she held over me. I think ultimately it was good for me, but I acknowledge that now I have a need for someone like her, and that troubles me. ~submissiveAK~

uncollared4u -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 6:54:49 AM)
i dont think it would be fun to be forced, i love my submission it never came forced it came to me because i really wanted to do with with great desire from deep with in me

quick -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 8:36:27 AM)
quote: Really, we need a third term because obedience and submission overlap. All submission requires obedience, but not all obedience requires submission. For my own purposes, obedience is following the rules. Submission is yielding to the strength and authority of my partner. My obedience may be dictated by many things, but my submission is dictated only by my Dominant and my trust in Him. I agree the terms have some overlap, however. I understand there are things my Dominant must force me into yeilding to, to determine my limits. Communication and trust are what seem to be the keys here. If you do not trust your Dominant to act in your best interests, then 'force' takes on a completely different meaning, does it not?

SimplyMichael -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 8:38:17 AM)
When I have to deal with police, am I submissive because I obey, say yes sir, don't challenge or second guess them? Inside, I am thinking of where to place my shot (right between their fucking eyes) or what ignorant assholes they are, or how smug and arrogant they are and how I would dearly love to show them how vulnerable they are. I "submit" to them because if I don't they will beat/jail/fuck with me using the entire criminal justice system as a sledge hammer. When someone submits to me, I hope the reasons why and their internal monologue is going a hell of a lot different!

whenstarscollide -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 10:10:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael When I have to deal with police, am I submissive because I obey, say yes sir, don't challenge or second guess them? Inside, I am thinking of where to place my shot (right between their fucking eyes) or what ignorant assholes they are, or how smug and arrogant they are and how I would dearly love to show them how vulnerable they are. I "submit" to them because if I don't they will beat/jail/fuck with me using the entire criminal justice system as a sledge hammer. When someone submits to me, I hope the reasons why and their internal monologue is going a hell of a lot different! quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku Force does not necessarily mean physical force, that is only one kind of force (people frequently make the erroneous assumption that force = physical). I said absolutely nothing about beating anyone into submission. Bottom line is that domination requires some form of influence; you can either manipulate someone into wanting to do what you want, or you can "make" them do it. I use "make" in quotations because it is nearly impossible to physically force someone to take an action. Domination always comes down to a contest of wills (unless one side pleads nolo contendere). quote: ORIGINAL CalifChick I disagree. I don't have to be forced into anything to be submissive. Obedience refers to actions. Submissive is to yield to authority. One is physical, one is mental. YMMV. How can you separate those two? How can you be obedient without being submissive, or visa-versa? Using that definition, one cannot exist without the other. If the authority is not exerted, there isn't anything to submit to. That exertion of authority is a kind of force (there has to be force of some type, in order for you to yield to it). The question to consider is; what supports that authority? Really, we need a third term because obedience and submission overlap. All submission requires obedience, but not all obedience requires submission. How about using the term "compliance" to describe the action or fact of adhering to a wish or command does not necessitate a contest of wills? It is driven by a type of authority that exists within a culture or community's social and/or political contract (i.e. SimplyMichael's police office scenario). In this case, obedience has nothing to do with submission to another person's desire, but to an abstract conception of order and justice. Over all, I agree with Honsoku that force does not equal abuse. However, there is a fine line between the two - as there are both good and bad types of domination. To yield to a force when you have the capability and option to resist is submission. If you have no other alternatives, than it is most likely abuse. At least from where I am standing... (Didn't we all get into a similar kind of debate when trying to figure out the differences between domination and manipulation? rummages through past threads)

CalifChick -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 10:17:28 AM)
How about if we agree that we disagree Hons? You are saying that to yield, it must be to force. I say that to yield, it can be to his leadership, to his request, to his order, hell, to his charm and wit. Cali

SubbieOnWheels -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 10:27:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick How about if we agree that we disagree Hons? You are saying that to yield, it must be to force. I say that to yield, it can be to his leadership, to his request, to his order, hell, to his charm and wit. Cali I'll yield to charm and wit any time!

Honsoku -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 11:11:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael When I have to deal with police, am I submissive because I obey, say yes sir, don't challenge or second guess them? Inside, I am thinking of where to place my shot (right between their fucking eyes) or what ignorant assholes they are, or how smug and arrogant they are and how I would dearly love to show them how vulnerable they are. I "submit" to them because if I don't they will beat/jail/fuck with me using the entire criminal justice system as a sledge hammer. Yes. Though if they can use the entire justice system as a sledge hammer against you, they aren't that vulnerable now are they? [;)] This is a fine example of what domination is, at least perceived through you, when it consists of little but force and when such force is being used against someone resentful of it. Not all domination is enjoyed/healthy/good, though that doesn't mean that it isn't domination. Look at the terminology that we use; submit, dominate, yield, control, use, power exchange, etc. All of these imply using or being influenced by some degree of force. The exercising of power or authority is a force. It isn't a force in the sense we normally think of as it isn't physical, but that does not negate it's presence. The only term that gets used which doesn't imply the presence of force is "give" but that would make submission a gift, and we all know how you feel about that. The presence of force in d/s is the elephant in the room (no, not you LaM). Everything points to it's presence, but no one wants to admit to it. This is because to do so opens up a whole can of worms and puts d/s in direct conflict with what most people perceive to be ethical or healthy behavior. quote: When someone submits to me, I hope the reasons why and their internal monologue is going a hell of a lot different! I hope so to. Although I am almost certain that at some point in time, you have told a submissive to do something they didn't really want to do and they thought "smug arrogant bastard", yet did it anyway [:D] The measure of power isn't the ability to get someone to do something they want to do, but to get someone to do something they don't want to do. Getting someone to do something they don't want to do, requires some degree of force (of some kind). If this wasn't the case, they wouldn't do it. Force is an ugly, dirty word which carries a lot of negative implications along with it, but it is also the most accurate term to describe the process of exercising power.

Honsoku -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 11:22:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Beating someone into doing what you say in order to avoid more beatings is abuse. Becoming into collusion with the abuser is unfortunately common, google Stockholm Syndrome. As far as whoever claimed that submission requires obedience, that's not universal. I'm not supposed to obey to submit. I'm supposed to be emotionally transparent and tell him how I feel. For me doing what he says when I feel badly about it is being nonsubmissive. Obedience is not everyone's kink. I know what Stockholm Syndrome is. I never said one lick about "beating" anyone into submission. People read the word "force" and jump to conclusions about what kind of force is involved. If you have something you are "supposed" to do, that implies that there is something to obey. So if you weren't being emotionally open, you would be being disobedient, now wouldn't you? All that has happened is you have moved your obedience back a step.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 11:42:04 AM)
Honsoku, I take it your definition of bdsm related dominance and submission is that a submissive doesn't want to do the things she is doing for you? That your dominance doesn't so much change her mind but forces her do those things anyway? For me, I don't want force, as you use the term, anywhere near what I do. I am 6'2, physically large and intellectually imposing and I find using my power to force someone into doing or thinking what I want boring and effortless. I don't want to browbeat her into doing/enjoying something, I want to enlighten her, enrich her life, nurture her so that she finds her own joy in obeying me. Submission, as I use the term, isn't something taken, it isn't something given, it is something that is inspired. That being "mine" brings her an inner calm and happiness that provides the inspiration to do things that, at times, provide pleasure only to me and her only reward is knowing she has pleased me.

RCdc -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 11:49:24 AM)
BDSM may be physical, but it isn't physics - the definition of 'force' as applied is like suggesting that to dominate you need weakness as an opposite. the.dark.

littleone35 -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 12:05:11 PM)
I submit to Master and i also obey him. I was not" forced" i did it willing. So not everyone is the same. I amy be a sub but no one could force me to do anything i did not want to do. If i did not want to submit there was no way i would beatings or no. if i was beaten i would run not walk away. Matt's littleone

SimplyMichael -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 12:13:16 PM)
In international relations there are some terms that might be useful for this debate, hard power and soft power. Hard power refers to the use of military or economic forces to make someone do what you want. Soft power refers to influence. A good example would be on the issue of civil rights, if Saudi Arabia has very little soft power on that issue because they are so abusive but a country like Switzerland has a lot of soft power on that issue. I prefer to use soft power, who I am and my actions inspire submission. Now don't get me wrong, playing with force is very very hot. Grabbing someone by the throat, shoving them up against the wall and ripping their clothes off is hot, but it isn't hot because they are too weak to resist me. Instead, I think for many, feeling the raw power of their lover, THEIR LOVER being the operative concept, makes them feel safe because their lover is so strong/powerful. But that enjoyment of being overpowered isn't given/felt regardless of who is doing the overpowering, it is restricted quite narrowly to their lover/s.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 12:42:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Honsoku quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael When someone submits to me, I hope the reasons why and their internal monologue is going a hell of a lot different! I hope so to. Although I am almost certain that at some point in time, you have told a submissive to do something they didn't really want to do and they thought "smug arrogant bastard", yet did it anyway [:D] Never never have I thought that. I will admit to trying to get out of giving a footrub by giving a mind blowing blowjob, but that usually results in me giving him a blowjob and a foot massage..lol..

ownedgirlie -> RE: Forced submission (1/18/2008 12:43:51 PM)
Honsoku, I don't think anyone is saying you suggested beatings. I think people are replying to the concept of beatings based on what the OP said in Post #4: "To begin with He forced me but then i willingly submitted to Him.. (at first it was to just stop the "beatings" but then i actually enjoyed doing it.) Does that make sense "

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