RE: Right or wrong? (Full Version)

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SubtleCuriosity6 -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 4:09:26 PM)

Being Dominant isn't necessarily about making someone else do something they don't like.  It's about making the decisions that are best for all involved.  When you are simply scening with someone for the first time it's not all Dom/sub.  It's the first step in learning what your partner's reactions will be.  A good Dominant will allow the sub the leeway they need to find trust and fulfillment by allowing them to set the pace.  Once trust has been established the Dom moves the pace forward and the sub follows where they lead.  As for a safe word...after a relationship (with me anyways) is established subby had better actually be in an unsafe situation before he uses it or he will regret it.



beargonewild -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 4:11:55 PM)

Sometimes it is tough to determine if a post is in reply to the one above or to the OP. Though your reply did get me to stop and think about that angle, and that is a good thing.



weneedyourhelp -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 4:12:02 PM)

For me, I don't think it's necessarily "limits" that give a sub their power. Example: When kitten and I are playing, I pay close attention to everything about her, do I say it,almost like what a sub would do. (no offense intended, paying attention to needs is part of what makes a sub great.) But my feelings are I will adjust my play according to however kitten may be feeling, but I do that at my choice. So I guess I'm saying, (don't let her hear this) in our particular relationship, although I have ultimate control over what does or doesn't happen, she actually holds the power.  I hope that makes some sense to someone, if it does, please let me know what Ijust said! [8|]

Cougar



weneedyourhelp -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 4:34:01 PM)

Ok I give up, I guess I have a nasty habit of killing a thread? Lol



bellanotte -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 4:39:45 PM)

But the power is still yours just as much.... It simply pleases you to be a caring, considerate Dominant, and so you -choose- to act in such a way,  but the point is that it is a choice you are making, and (unless I read you wrong), you are not surrendering power to her in any way by doing so.

People start out in a relationship with equal power. Unless the Dominant surrenders power to the submissive, thus creating the imbalance, he/she will have equal power, and greater authority.



SayaNereida -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 5:35:13 PM)

quote:

Maybe I think too deep, but my understanding that within a relationship, it is the submissive that is the real dominant.


While I disagree with your choice of the phrase 'real dominant', I agree with the thought.

Here's why:
A submissive can be submissive to anyone they choose, with or without the other persons consent or some times even their knowledge.

To me, this is supported by the advice given (here on CM) to submissives finding themselves in a 'vanilla' relationship and their partner 'doesn't understand' or finds their desires 'offensive'.  I have read many responses  from folks suggesting that the person(interested submissive) do things their partner finds pleasing and meets their submissive need (household chores, fetching the dry cleaning, running the partner's errands, etc.); in the hopes of 'bringing their partner around' to the idea of their being submissive.  Thereby suggesting that it is possible to submit to someone even if they do not in fact recognize the submission.

A submissive does so by choice, to whom they wish, at least that's what I understand from the responses to submissive wondering about dominants that are not THEIR dominant, making demands/orders of them:  the majority of advice given is you don't have to do anything if they are not your dominant.

One can TRY to dominant another but unless they follow/submit, one is simply making rules and demands of another they may or may not follow; ie: being domineering.

Saya






salilus -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 7:38:09 PM)

Giving up control is an incredibly difficult thing to do. A lot of trust needs to be established and that usually means a lot of time is needed. Some people never get that time as some prefer to only have bdsm once in awhile and perhaps they don't live with the dominant they 'play' with, etc. None of this is bad, mind you, but it is where some folks are at.

In a situation where the submissive doesn't know/trust the dominant and the dominant doesn't know the submissive, inside and out, yes; the submissive probably does control a lot of the interactions, with good reason.



adoracat -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 8:26:01 PM)

~fast reply~

Daddy is in charge.  he decides what will or will not happen.  however!  he does ask for my input and opinion.  why?  because he isnt in my body.  he doesnt know how i'm feeling just by looking at me.    he also knows i wont abuse that privilege. 

there's been times that he asks me what i would like...but then doesnt do it.  *smiles* that's his right, too.

kitten



kyraofMists -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 8:48:17 PM)

That is not how our relationship is structured.  He has complete authority within my life (this includes more than play) and the only limit to that is one that he places on it.  He will not harm us; that is his limit.  In play, I only have a say in what will or will not happen if he decides to give me the choice.  He decides what he will or will not do with me.  We also do not use safewords.  The only way to stop play, provided that we are not being harmed, is to end the relationship.

What you describe seems more of a top/bottom relationship than a D/s one.  If the bottom dictates to the top what will or will not be done in play, then they are the ones in control.  Just because someone is the top during play does not mean that they are the dominant in the relationship. 

Knight's Kyra



PanthersMom -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 9:17:47 PM)

why does everyone have to follow the same "rules"?  i think each relationship defines itself based on the two people, or more, who are in it.  D/s is whatever you decide works for you and yours.  if it isn't, i don't want to be a part of it. 

PM



hisannabelle -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 9:20:48 PM)

greetings aneirin,

i don't choose to set limits on what he can or cannot do to me. he knows my physical, emotional, and psychological limitations and what happens when they are pushed; it's up to him whether he chooses to push those or not. i'm encouraged to communicate with him when i reach a limitation but that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to stop.

we used to have a safeword only as a method of communicating that, but that fell out of use very quickly.

personally, i would not want to be in an m/s relationship where i retained the control. that's just my own point of view and experience, however, and i understand that i may be in the minority.

that said, if i were just playing with someone i do not know well, i would put limits on certain things because as a bottom to them my level of trust, submission, obedience, or whatever you want to call it would be vastly different than what is present as a slave to my master. my master knows my limitations; it's likely, given my many and varied health concerns, potential play partners would not - and as i am not their property, i am his, i would not be comfortable with them going past that even if they did, so yes, in that case, i would retain some control. but i am most comfortable in a situation where i am property and do not retain any control, as in my relationship with my master.

he's done many things that are extremely outside of my comfort zone and challenge my beliefs and principles and overwhelm my limitations. it has not ruined any bonds. it has helped me grow quite a bit, and occasionally it's annoyed, harmed, or freaked me out, and sometimes it puts me in moral dilemmas, but i wouldn't have it any other way.

he also controls the length of scenes and whatever else happens. usually our playtime is either too long or too short for me ;) but learning to deal with that is another part of being his, so i have.

respectfully,
annabelle.



MzMia -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 9:35:49 PM)

I agree with what you are saying a great deal.
What you are stating is true, for MANY situations.
Especially when you are dealing with Top/bottom situations and play partners.
 
IMHO, unless someone really wants and gives up most of their power and authority,
they are pretty much on equal footing.
 
It is when someone REALLY submits and relinquishes up most of their real power and control, that the dynamic changes.
 

 



MzMia -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 9:43:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bellanotte

I think what you are forgetting in your argument here is that submissives are not the only ones who set limits.

If a submissive was the only person who set a limit, then your case might (or might not) hold water. But Dominants DO have limits too. They are not as frequently visible as the submissive's limits, because it is the Dominant performing the act, but there are things the Dominant will not do, just as there are things the submissive will not do.

Also, all of the Dominants I have been involved with or have played with have certain behaviors that if shown in a submissive, would result in a cancellation of the relationship (or scene). This behavior may differ from person to person. In my current collar, there are two things that would result in loss of collar if I did them.

I think the difference is that, we tend to just call a Dominant's limits "rules" and a submissive's... "limits." But some of those "rules" of the Dominant's are limits every bit as personal and needing absolute trust on the part of the submissive partner, as the submissive's limits need absolute trust on the part of the Dominant.


[sm=applause.gif]
IMHO, we never see or hear enough about Dominant's limits around here.
I have MANY conditions and limits, many Dominant's have them.
 
You have Dominants, you have Tops, you have switches and you have Service Tops
and Service Dominants.

I have more limits, rules and conditions than most of the submissive's I chat with.

Why would a Dominant stay in a relationship or even become involved with a submissive that does not fall into what the Dominant partner wants or fails to exhibit what that Dominant considers submissive behavior to be?

Another question you can ask is "Why would a Dominant pick or stay with a "submissive", IF they felt the submissive was in control or had the upper hand most of the time?
Things that make me go.... hummm?

 
 



Kana -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 9:45:19 PM)

I do what I do.
Others do what they do.
Its none of my affair how they set the parameters or the rules they play by.
I will say this. No two relationships that I have had with different individuals have followed the same protocols.each one is unique, thus they develop their own complexities. And more often than not, the situation can alter within a relationship as it is ongoing.
This is life, nothing is static, else it withers and dies.



Kana -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 9:49:42 PM)

I have limits too MzMia.
I think you make an accurate point with your comment in that regards.
They funny thing is somethings I have greatly enjoyed with one person I don't like with another.
Then there are somethings that I do like with one that I didn't like wth another.
But there are a few that I always enjoy, and some things I just don't do.
Shrugs, what can I say.



tulitukka -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 10:15:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, but I need clarification on my thoughts.

My thoughts are that a submissive does not Top from the bottom, but prior to a play situation, they say what they do not want, their limits. I respect a person's limits and will not go beyond.A relationship I have with a person I believe is based upon trust, if I break a person's limits, then I am beyond trust, and there the relationship suffers.

My thoughts as to a submissive being the one in control, is based purely on respect for their limits.

For example, I might want to do something another has an innate fear of, a massive dislike, whatever, fair enough, limits can be explored, but only in a submissives agreement.

To me, to do something outside of a person's most extreme comfort zone, can ruin a bond of trust.


Of course, you forget that dominants also have limits. And should those limits be crossed, they have similar capability and right to put a stop to things. Calculating this in, the only thing you are saying is that from the infinite possibilities the limits set by the submissive take a portion away, and limits set by the dominant take a portion away. Within the remaining space, it is the dominant that controls what happens. I don't see how this would imply that the submissive is in control. [:)]



MzMia -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/19/2008 10:19:09 PM)

[sm=applause.gif]
The Dominant is in control, often real control means deciding NOT to be in
a relationship with the wrong person, or walking away when you realize that you
are in a relationship with the wrong person.

 That is why I believe in taking the time to get to know someone well, before becomming involved.
Caveat Emptor.



Aneirin -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/20/2008 12:20:44 AM)

Thankyou all for your your thoughts, it is much appreciated.

As I see things, where I am at, is that I am not in a relationship,so there is the prospect of play with another. Now that other will be putting a great deal of trust in me, and I wish to display that I can be worthy of trust, so I will be following the correct procedures, i.e. discussion, limits(both ways) and until I know a person well enough, I would insist on the use of a safeword or other.I wish to let another know that I care about their welfare and safety.

Now, if and when there may be a relationship, procedures may be relaxed, as both of us will have gained sufficient trust in each other. My whole point of this post was from the position of how I am at the present, that is, not in a relationship and possibly seeking.

Whatever may happen later, as I have said in my profile, I seek friends first.Only from friends can other fruits come.




Jester0587 -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/20/2008 12:29:01 AM)

Aneirin,

I agree with your original statement on the previous page, that a submissive is in a sense the dominant.  Safe words and limits let them control the situation to the very point that they want it.

The only thing I feel brings that control back to the dominant would be "Internal Enslavement."  Mind-games, cognative-behavioral training, and the submissive's either pysical or mental dependance on the dominant can be used in an elegant dance to convice that submissive to do whatever the dominant does, and because they're already losing control to the dominant (rather, physical control) they're very open to suggestion.

Just a thought from your friendly neighborhood crazy...I mean psychologist.

-Alex



MaamJay -> RE: Right or wrong? (1/20/2008 1:13:31 AM)

Hello Aneirin,
In this and your OP, it becomes obvious that you are speaking in the context of a play session or scene with someone with whom you haven't yet developed a full D/s relationship. Perhaps it is best described as being Top and bottom, or "temporary submission" ie submission within set parameters of time and acceptable activities. There is a difference between power and control ... in this context the bottom still has a certain amount of power, but ideally if all goes well, they shouldn't have to exercise that power as control. The Top chooses what to do to please themselves and to retain control without setting off the bottom's "trip" button.

In a D/s relationship where power exchange is involved, the submission becomes much more protracted to the point where it may be 24/7. It may extend well beyond the boundaries of play into every aspect of everyday life. Generally, this isn't leapt into without discussion ... each extension of power exchange is discussed and negotiated. But once it is given ... it usually remains given. For eg, Master and i don't negotiate every day about who now has control over my schedule, the household finances ... or what songs He and i sing in O/our duo! All those things have been submitted ... they are now His. Because of the relatively informal nature of O/our relationship, if i became seriously concerned about His decisions (if He suddenly put the house on the market and decided W/we were going on a cruise - extreme eg! and i hate boats LOL!) ... i would always be able to question this ... but ultimately He would have the say. That's what i have accepted with each new aspect that i have submitted to Him, so ultimately He has more and more power and i have less. This is because of my growing trust in His decision-making ... that He will make the best decisions for both of U/us. And i am happy with that [:)]

So it's not so much that you are wrong ... or right ... it's more a matter of context.

And just to add, that Dominants do indeed have limits, Master certainly does, and so does My Domme side ... what is important is to find a sub whose limits mesh well. Then they become a moot point.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



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