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Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 1:53:37 AM

blackpearl81

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Home of the Yankees
Status: offline

Good morning (or evening depending on where your at)

I had several questions for the Dom/me's out there

My first question is:

in a Dom/me's opinion.. what are some of the + or -'s of having a previously trained sub.. compared to an untrained sub and.. which would they rather have

My second question is.

If you met or talked with a submissive who has never been collared, trained, owned, etc. would you be willing to be somewhat of a mentor or teacher? Not neccesarily start training him/her but more or less be more like an advisor, and just talk to him/her?

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Post #: 1

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 2:39:27 AM

UtahGoddess

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Utah
Status: offline

Hello,

In response to your first question:

The pluses of having a previously trained submissive are
-- they have an idea of what service implies
-- to the degree they have been trained they know how to perform tasks
-- they are familiar with protocols and such
-- they generally know what they are looking for in a Dominant

The pluses would be, of course, that you don't have to start from zero and teach them everything. They have a good idea of what they need and want in a relationship and a grasp of what they are willing to give.

The pluses of having an untrained submissive are
-- they are a blank slate
-- there is no Domina comparison (My old Domme did it THIS way)
-- it is easier to teach than to correct previous training
-- it is fun to share the first steps of discovery

New submissives are eager to learn new things and everything is new to them. You are their first at everything. They can be taught to please to your expectations without a comparative history. Your way is the only way.

The minuses of a trained submissive are:
--they think they already know
--they can sometimes be a bit Toppy because the current Dom/me does things differently
--they sometimes have difficulty letting go of past training

It is difficult to teach someone that believes they already know. They sometimes have difficulty with correction when they are doing it "right" according to previous ownership. They sometimes seek out a Dom/me like their old Dom/me as a way of replacing the old relationship....as opposed to starting a new one.

The minuses of an untrained sub are:
--they don't really know what they want or need
--many ideas are fantasy based and not reality based
--they are sometimes more motivated at the idea of submission as opposed to actual submission

People without experience have a fantasy image of what these relationships entail. They are so wrapped up in their submissive fantasies they don't foresee the fact that these relationships take effort. They tend to project onto themselves (and their partners) fantasy standards and ideals. These may not always be congruent with reality.

***************************

As for which I prefer, I have no preference. Both choices have pros and cons. I find that personal chemistry has more bearing on my decision making than experience.

***************************

I am not opposed to talking with people of all experience levels so long as it is for genuine conversation, advice, friendship, etc. However I am not one to twitterpate and entertain someone's fantasy life.

Ms Sandi

< Message edited by UtahGoddess -- 8/30/2005 3:31:02 AM >

_____________________________

"The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love" Havelock Ellis The Project Gutenberg

(in reply to blackpearl81)

Post #: 2

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 3:50:54 AM

MsSonnetMarwood

Posts: 1898
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: Eastern Shore, Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

As for which I prefer, I have no preference. Both choices have pros and cons. I find that personal chemistry has more bearing on my decision making than experience.

***************************

I am not opposed to talking with people of all experience levels so long as it is for genuine conversation, advice, friendship, etc. However I am not one to twitterpate and entertain someone's fantasy life.

Ms Sandi

Excellent response.

I will add just a bit.

One disadvantage of someone with no training is that when meeting such a person online, those are typically the ones that want to spend a loooong time online talking, and are more likely to be no-shows when it comes time to meet. That is one reason I shy away from the inexperienced.

_____________________________

~Ms. Sonnet Marwood~

Deja Moo: The feeling you've heard this bull somewhere before.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

Post #: 3

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 4:32:11 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blackpearl81

Good morning (or evening depending on where your at)

I had several questions for the Dom/me's out there

My first question is:

in a Dom/me's opinion.. what are some of the + or -'s of having a previously trained sub.. compared to an untrained sub and.. which would they rather have

It's nice to play with someone with some experience (or a lot of experience). It make the negotiations go faster and she has an idea of what she really likes and does not like.

The biggest negative is if she tries to impose the limits and desires of her previous dominant on me. For example, I had one playpartner who simply couldn't walk next to me. Do you have any idea of how hard it is to hold a converstation with someone three steps behind? [laugh]

quote:

My second question is.

If you met or talked with a submissive who has never been collared, trained, owned, etc. would you be willing to be somewhat of a mentor or teacher? Not neccesarily start training him/her but more or less be more like an advisor, and just talk to him/her?

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

That's a lot of what Libby and I do i the scene. We advise and assist. We have a pretty full dance card, so we aren't actively looking for new play partners but we enjoy helping others in the scene.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to blackpearl81)

Post #: 4

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 6:56:07 AM

MadameMarque

Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline

I believe that UtahGoddess/Ms. Sandi has stated the pros and cons of considering trained or untrained slave and submissives, very well. I, too, am much more concerned with the slave or submissive, personally, than with their resume'.

I have a preference for quite young men, and so I am aware of the likelihood that an applicant will be inexperienced.

If submissives and slaves care for a suggestion, I would say that, whether you are inexperienced or seasoned, an attitude of openness will allow your fullest potential to show. It will open the doors of communication and rapport with a potential owner or dominant.

It may be a cure for the drawbacks of both inexperienced and experienced submissives or slaves, such as Ms. Sandi has mentioned.

By "open," I don't mean to say have no boundaries. Don't put yourself in unsafe situations with persons you do not know.

What does openness mean? - Be receptive to the new person you are facing. When you begin contact with a new or potential dominant or owner, actually pay attention to him or her - that person is not a fantasy in your head, isn't just "some dominant." That is a specific person, and what's going on in their head and heart may be exciting. Be open to the moment, to the new, to the surprises of another person's different ways of doing things, seeing things, their personal fantasies, likes and dislikes, strengths and (is it possible?!) weaknesses.

Be yourself, be real - don't waste the opportunity to have a real connection with someone by being one of an endless parade of fakes. Don't just do and say things because you think they will make the dominant give you what you want. This is the same as trying to manipulate the dominant, and that will never satisfy you, mostly because you'll always suspect (though it may not be true) that if you ever stopped manipulating the dominant, that dominant wouldn't want you. Say what's true, act from your heart.

Be open to the dominant's influence upon you - cooperate and be pliant a bit! I don't mean that you should commit too much too soon. I doubt anyone can really handle making themselves completely wide open and vulnerable, from the start, with a stranger (that goes for dominants and submissives). I don't think you should. But let the dominant start to take the lead - that's what you're looking for, isn't it? and be open to experiencing that newly with this dominant.

Have a little faith in the person you're considering as your possible dominant or owner, in their intentions and abilities. Not the moving-across-country-to-live-with-a-stranger type faith or the "sure, tie me up, stranger" type faith. Just extend a little trust, on credit, you might say, to start. Let them do it their way (within your limits and your safety), so that you can have a taste of what "their way" is. Otherwise, you'll be too closed and wary of the dominant to make a connection with them.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

Post #: 5

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 7:19:56 AM

KCMOLucky

Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Kansas City, Missouri
Status: offline

Wow, beautifuly put. That did me good to read.

_____________________________

I don't have PMS, I just disagree with you.

(in reply to MadameMarque)

Post #: 6

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 9:30:42 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 4:39:27 AM
UtahGoddess;
======================================

i am really impressed. i see so much b.s. handed out by dommes and as i read through this i was floored by the actual real information w/o any of the usual hype.

thank You for a marvelous reading.
wow. i am in awe.

wolf

_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

Post #: 7

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 10:00:20 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I do prefer those with experience, but I think that in addition to chemistry, the person's "training" should match the domme's preferences. For example, I am not a person interested in decorative behavors (bowing, foot kissing), and excessive protocols. I insist on EYE CONTACT, and some were told that subs never look at the dom! For some, these are essential, and I don't think it would suit either party to try and "untrain" this sort of thing.

It would be enchanting if there were one codified set of behaviors that suited everyone, but since there isn't, open communication from the outset about what the submissive KNOWS is important. (as if communication is ever not important!)

Certainly, we like to say that it's all about the dominant, but IRL, our opposite number has to be happy in our service, or he/she will just go elsewhere. If the prospective sub's desire is to be in a high protocol environment, that person is just not going to be really content with casual behavior.

Match game, anyone?

:)Francine

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 8

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 12:11:56 PM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 8:56:07 AM
MadameMarque
Vanilla
Posts: 3
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline I believe that UtahGoddess/Ms. Sandi has stated the pros and cons of considering trained or untrained slave and submissives, very well. I, too, am much more concerned with the slave or submissive, personally, than with their resume'.
========

what floored ME was how She hit the nail when She talked about comparing. "I" am guilty because my 1st Mistress was a pro and now my new Mistress is not. and it is like 180 degrees difference.
i am touched, daily, if only a touch on my cheek with Her hand whereas my 1st NEVER touched me and i was in touch deprivation for a long time...

so so different.

so Ms Utah is right on the money and i seen NO flaws in Her logic.

wolf

_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"

(in reply to MadameMarque)

Post #: 9

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 3:21:04 PM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

I have thought long and hard about what you asked... and I'm still at a loss. There are perks in either scenerio. I think at this point in time... I would prefer that blank slate.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to blackpearl81)

Post #: 10

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 4:10:04 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Sometimes I think I would prefer the blank slate, also. But there is that definite drawback of not knowing what My TPE entails. OTOH, a boy with previous experience can also pose some difficulty. I have had the "This is how <insert name here> would handle this. It can get a bit tiring.
So I do like what MadameMarque had to say:

quote:

Be open to the dominant's influence upon you - cooperate and be pliant a bit! I don't mean that you should commit too much too soon. I doubt anyone can really handle making themselves completely wide open and vulnerable, from the start, with a stranger (that goes for dominants and submissives). I don't think you should. But let the dominant start to take the lead - that's what you're looking for, isn't it? and be open to experiencing that newly with this dominant.

Have a little faith in the person you're considering as your possible dominant or owner, in their intentions and abilities. Not the moving-across-country-to-live-with-a-stranger type faith or the "sure, tie me up, stranger" type faith. Just extend a little trust, on credit, you might say, to start. Let them do it their way (within your limits and your safety), so that you can have a taste of what "their way" is. Otherwise, you'll be too closed and wary of the dominant to make a connection with them.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 11

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 4:37:49 PM

denimknight

Posts: 38
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

Every now and again the best answer to a question has the effect of creating more questions. Miss Utah's very well thought out and articulated answer seems to be an example of this. Given Her answers (which seem to be generally agreed with based upon what I am reading) I would request the thoughts of others on some more specific questions.

I find myself in an odd no man's land between the two extremes of assumed experience. I've never been collared nor do I seek a collar at this point in time. Many seem to assume that I then have had NO experience and thus have only what I've read or dreamed about from which to draw regarding expectations of an M/s relationship. While I have not been active for very long the year and a half that I have, have been filled with some wonderfully enlightening real world experiences which have given me some solid examples from which to draw my expectations.

I say all this to give some context to my question: Given my unique position on the experience scale I think I might have a unique opportunity to eliminate the minuses inherent in trained and untrained slaves while at the same time maximizing the pluses.
How might I best go about accomplishing this goal? I would greatly appreciate any and all advice on this matter.

respectfully submitted
dk

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

Post #: 12

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 5:59:02 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I don't think that being "collared" is necessarily a plus. So, you were not in a long term committed relationship---or perhaps you were, but it was called something else.

Is that a handicap? I don't think so. There is nothing wrong with having a wide variety of experiences and finding out firsthand what you like and dislike. It's my feeling that too much stress is placed on "collaring" anyway. If a person is collared to someone who has nothing serious to teach, what has been gained? Hopefully both parties got satisfaction from the arrangement, but that doesn't mean that the dom or the sub are more skilled because of it.

Presenting yourself as you are will get you much further than saying you were collared for a certain period of time. Plus, there won't be that uneasiness about why you are not collared anymore!

(in reply to denimknight)

Post #: 13

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 7:53:23 PM

msub4Domme

Posts: 66
Joined: 3/22/2004
Status: offline

Avery good exposition from UtahGoddess.

i would like to add something from a subs perspective. i have had quite a few different experiences but only rarely something longer term. However, i view each "new" Mistress as a new person with new concepts of desired behavior and potentially different ideas for molding a sub to Her pleasures. As much as possible, then, i try to present mself as a blank slate. i will answer Her questions as to my past experiences but i don't hold that those are exclusively what i need. Matters are Her choice.

To summarize -- each Domme is likely to be different than any i have experienced in the past. To expect (of, heavan forbid, demand) a "repeat" performance is hardly what a sub should want. [also, variety and/or something new can be fun!]

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 14

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 8:12:22 PM

LadyJulieAnn

Posts: 979
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: msub4Domme

Avery good exposition from UtahGoddess.

i would like to add something from a subs perspective. i have had quite a few different experiences but only rarely something longer term. However, i view each "new" Mistress as a new person with new concepts of desired behavior and potentially different ideas for molding a sub to Her pleasures. As much as possible, then, i try to present mself as a blank slate. i will answer Her questions as to my past experiences but i don't hold that those are exclusively what i need. Matters are Her choice.

To summarize -- each Domme is likely to be different than any i have experienced in the past. To expect (of, heavan forbid, demand) a "repeat" performance is hardly what a sub should want. [also, variety and/or something new can be fun!]

Very nicely stated, msub4Domme.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to msub4Domme)

Post #: 15

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 8:57:59 PM

Misstoyou

Posts: 1149
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: denimknight

While I have not been active for very long the year and a half that I have, have been filled with some wonderfully enlightening real world experiences which have given me some solid examples from which to draw my expectations.

This was my submissive. I'm happy to say "was" because he's been mine for seven months now, and he has gained LOTS more experience. lol

There is a huge difference between "no" experience and "some." The primary benefit, as has been stated before, is that fantasy has been supplanted with reality. The sub has felt the result of submission on/against his body, not just in his mind, from a real woman, not just a mythical Domme, and he's ready to go deeper.

The legal term might be "informed consent."

_____________________________

~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"

(in reply to denimknight)

Post #: 16

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/30/2005 11:06:06 PM

brightspot

Posts: 3052
Status: offline

Hi, I am submissive, but would like to say...just for the heck of it...
I like my Domina Trained, makes a difference.

*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

http://360.yahoo.com/my_profile-TD4TwEw8crWS3GHFDcs_DK1rHmW6Dq_E;_ylt=Av2PfG9gH0wkQrMPivuMCivGAOJ3

(in reply to blackpearl81)

Post #: 17

RE: Trained or Untrained - 8/31/2005 4:14:46 AM

FTopinMichigan

Posts: 571
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

Hi, I am submissive, but would like to say...just for the heck of it...
I like my Domina Trained, makes a difference.

*Brightspot

Brightspot...you are a bright spot! Your response put a grin on my face, first thing this morning. You make a very good point, and one that I have to agree with, wholeheartedly.

K

(in reply to brightspot)

Post #: 18

RE: Trained or Untrained - 9/4/2005 2:20:02 AM

MsWhip

Posts: 17
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline

What UtahGoddess said about trained subs is true for me also. The failure is when they had a Dominant that wasn't very formal and they aren't really trained.

I have mixed experiences with untrained subs. One experience is that they suck. They have a fantasy and it doesn't mix with the reality of a D/s dynamic. The other experience is a sub who has done his research, knows what is expected in a RT dynamic and can easily accept a variety of protocals that may be encountered with any Dominant. I would classify these as unexperienced rather than untrained, as they have done the legwork on what mentality would be appropriate and can easily maneuver within at RT dynamic.

_____________________________

*If you have no sense of humour, you probably have no sense at all.

http://www.collarme.com/bdsm/v/148138/details.htm

(in reply to blackpearl81)

Post #: 19

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