RE: Feelings of Worth (Full Version)

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EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Feelings of Worth (8/31/2005 3:07:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane
I think that the sense in which this is right is very limited. A lot depends on how scared people are. People obeying out of fear who aren't very scared, tend not to be all that obedient either. People who are extremely scared can generally be 'controlled' in only rather crude ways- and may freak out, freeze up, or find the first opportunity to bolt. I've never really tried, since it's really not my style, but I suspect sustaining a 'just right' level of fear is a pretty tricky business- people tend to slide in one direction or the other.
Some kinds of fear can be fun, but as a primary motivator in a relationship I don't think it's very effective, never mind the ethical issues.
Cane


Actually my line of thought of this wasn't in the direction of someone else putting fear into the sub, or manipulating the fear of the sub, but to the specific topic- feelings of worth. If a person does not feel worthy, or is afraid that they aren't, they will look to another person to affirm things, to latch onto, to be secure.

That fear alone, the fear from the person themselves, can be MORE than enough to keep someone under control for a long time...all those relationships that go "I'm not really happy...but I'm afraid to lose what I have" are all statements of being afraid of one's ACTUAL sense of worth, and being controlled by it.



caitlyn -> RE: Feelings of Worth (8/31/2005 3:50:40 PM)

I don't know much about submission, but doubt there is any connection between it and feelings of worth/worthlessness ... other than by chance.

Probably not a revelation, but it does bring the post count up on this thread. [;)]



KnightofMists -> RE: Feelings of Worth (8/31/2005 6:04:07 PM)

There has been a minority polarization of view that submissives are suppose to be weak and helpless. There are many people (Dominant and submissives alike) that promote this particular view. That somehow submissives need the Dominant to be complete etc etc etc. I think we all know the babble that is strung. At the same time there as been this minority polarization that Dominants are somehow all power full strong perfect species of humanity (maybe I am stretching that alittle *G*) however, it equally has been promoted by Dominants and submissives alike. These of course are Myths or bad fiction at the best. Unfortunately, just like some people believe the everything in the National Enquirer (sorry to break some of your bubbles on that one) , some will believe these myths and fictions.

As time goes on, people learn fact from fiction... but it is a slow process. Someday maybe everyone will understand we all have our own Power centre. That we all contribute that power to the dynamics of any relationship we choose to be a part of. Someday maybe everyone will see value in the core of themselves and not dependent on their use by someone else. I for one value the core character of my slaves and I take part of my enjoyment from their uses. But use is not value. If one places their value on their use... I feel they are doomed to reach a point of uselessness. For the body will sooner or later loose the flexiblity of use. While the character and virtures of a person can long our growth ones body. Our character and virtues can even transend beyond our death into the people that we have touched in during our lives.




RiotGirl -> RE: Feelings of Worth (8/31/2005 6:10:25 PM)

i agree whole heartedly lily. Hmmmmm makes me feel gooooood. About just everything really



ProtagonistLily -> RE: Feelings of Worth (8/31/2005 7:36:19 PM)

quote:

Remember- scared people are people who are easy to control. A lot of focus on Ds is about being in control. The scares subs want doms to control them so they can feel secure, doms find it easy to control someone scared.


Jesus, sometimes I want to smack you and sometimes, you are so dead on it's unreal. And this time, you hit the nail on the head.

In other words, what you are saying, if I understand it is this: Fear allows these women to want to give all the control up in order to feel secure? I'm not arguing this, I just want to make sure I'm getting what you are saying.

IMO there's good fear (mind fuck fear...yummmm) and bad fear (I'm lost here, don't know what I'm doing, maybe some Dom will rescue me...blech).

And what does it say about the Doms who take on the fear filled girls because they can control them better? That's an equally interesting question I think.

Lily



dominmd -> RE: Feelings of Worth (8/31/2005 7:58:02 PM)

I like women, specifically submissive women to feel good about themselves coming into a relationship. There is less baggage with a woman who believes in herself, and knows what she wants. Now, humiliating this type of woman for a scene is totally different. Once the scene is done, she should be reassured of her worth in her life and in particular to the person that just Topped her. I never want a sub to walk away from me feeling down or sad. I just am not that kind of person.

I feel great when I can give a sub what she wants which is humiliation sometimes, and make her feel even better about herself when I am done. Part of this is to make me feel good because I hate humiliating a person. It actually makes me feel dirty, and unclean.

Yes, I love controlling people. Yes I love controlling women. But I like controlling the strong women, who want me to control them. Women who have low self esteem are easy as hell to control, because they are so damn ready to please for fear of rejection. Someone who does not refer to themselves as "I" right off, will worry me. At the most it will put me of totally. I have been controlled before. I let myself be controlled because it relaxes me.

In the end I am worth a whole lot. I value myself as a person that is intelligent, bright, secure in his masculinity. As a professional in the market place, I have to come up with my own worth as far as how much I bill my services. One can take that as an example or one's own view of self worth. If you do not value yourself highly, others will not value either.



Fawne -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 8:41:57 AM)

I am an educated, intelligent, cultured woman. I started my own small business, I learn everday and am proud to be independantly employed.

I date and have relationships with men who are successful, accomplished, responsible, even chivelrous. They enjoy the finer things in life and yeah, that includes me<wink>.

I take care of myself, excercise, eat a healthy diet, and can cook from scratch like Grandma taught me. Kids like me because I am silly and sing, dance, and tell stories talking in accents and funny voices. I have a smile for everyone and enjoy my ability to make other's feel at ease. (OK, maybe I'm a bitch online, but am nicer in person! LOL) I am told I have kind eyes.


But, I gotta tell you.. sometimes I think I am weird because I like SM.



ProtagonistLily -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 11:06:12 AM)

quote:

But, I gotta tell you.. sometimes I think I am weird because I like SM


This too shall pass....

L



Mercnbeth -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 11:19:21 AM)

quote:

This too shall pass....


Lil,

Just to be clear - we're sure you were talking about the "feeling weird" part and not the reference to liking SM.

If you want to feel NOT weird - come to the Folsom Street Fair in SF at the end of September. Blocks & blocks of people just as "weird". It's a total immersion experience where the vanillas are the weird ones!



ProtagonistLily -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 11:22:13 AM)

quote:

Lil,

Just to be clear - we're sure you were talking about the "feeling weird" part and not the reference to liking SM.


Yes Merc, I was talking about the feeling weird part. Although, sometimes if I'm in a new outfit or I'm doing a scene at a party that's a departure from the standard flogging/spanking/whatever, I'll feel a little nervous or weird in the beginning but it passes very quickly.

Lily

(Edited to express my own feelings of momentary weirdness from time to time...)



CitizenCane -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 2:15:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

Some kinds of fear can be fun, but as a primary motivator in a relationship I don't think it's very effective, never mind the ethical issues.
Cane


Actually my line of thought of this wasn't in the direction of someone else putting fear into the sub, or manipulating the fear of the sub, but to the specific topic- feelings of worth. If a person does not feel worthy, or is afraid that they aren't, they will look to another person to affirm things, to latch onto, to be secure.

That fear alone, the fear from the person themselves, can be MORE than enough to keep someone under control for a long time...all those relationships that go "I'm not really happy...but I'm afraid to lose what I have" are all statements of being afraid of one's ACTUAL sense of worth, and being controlled by it.



If I read this right, we're not too far apart- what you describe as 'control' here seems very clumsy and inadequate to me. It seems to be a case of keeping someone in check rather than causing anything very interesting to happen. I tend to think of 'control' as giving the power to accomplish things, and fear tends more toward inhibiting things, such as running away. Off the top of my head I can't think of any terms to discriminate these two kinds of control, so I'll concede your point, and hope you see mine.

Cane



darkinshadows -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 3:44:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

quote:

Remember- scared people are people who are easy to control. A lot of focus on Ds is about being in control. The scares subs want doms to control them so they can feel secure, doms find it easy to control someone scared.


Jesus, sometimes I want to smack you and sometimes, you are so dead on it's unreal. And this time, you hit the nail on the head.

In other words, what you are saying, if I understand it is this: Fear allows these women to want to give all the control up in order to feel secure? I'm not arguing this, I just want to make sure I'm getting what you are saying.

IMO there's good fear (mind fuck fear...yummmm) and bad fear (I'm lost here, don't know what I'm doing, maybe some Dom will rescue me...blech).

And what does it say about the Doms who take on the fear filled girls because they can control them better? That's an equally interesting question I think.

Lily


I am not entirely sure if I agree with the thought that scared people are easy to control. Some people when in fear or scared, are harder to control and tend to cruise towards manic behaviour when in the panic phase.

But as for feeling selfworth, I have always thought deeply how people feel the need to be unworthy, when everything surrounding people is so commercial. It is such a confusing mix. Most people desire objects or posessions of worth. Who really wants $2 pumps when they could be offered Blaniks?Or a plastic walmart when offered prada?

Peace and Love



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 4:02:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
I am not entirely sure if I agree with the thought that scared people are easy to control. Some people when in fear or scared, are harder to control and tend to cruise towards manic behaviour when in the panic phase.

In another thread I posted that, over the long term, scared or uneasy people are erratic and less predictable and harder to control, while giving people a false sense of security can be much easier in the long term.

That being said, fear is still a powerful method of keeping control, specially if the fear is innate to the person and not externally imposed..

quote:

Most people desire objects or posessions of worth. Who really wants $2 pumps when they could be offered Blaniks?Or a plastic walmart when offered prada?

OK bad analogy for me because I get more compliments from my 2 dollar hot pink handkerchief schoolgirl skirt than I do my 400 dollar black leather corset- because one is more unique than the other at a club.

I see your point overall though, the issue is that so many subs WANT quality and then step back and say "Does he REALLY want me? Am I REALLY worth that much?"



darkinshadows -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 4:09:18 PM)

quote:

OK bad analogy for me because I get more compliments from my 2 dollar hot pink handkerchief schoolgirl skirt than I do my 400 dollar black leather corset- because one is more unique than the other at a club.

I see your point overall though, the issue is that so many subs WANT quality and then step back and say "Does he REALLY want me? Am I REALLY worth that much?"


Exactly Em - I get more compliments for going barefoot than wearing my expensive heels - and your right about the questioning of worth - in an age where everything is so consumer orientated and commercial, what puzzles me is why some submissive types feel less worth when quality is essential to people? In an age stiving for perfection, is this why any personal 'difference' is seen as imperfection and fault?

Peace and Love



pinkpleasures -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 4:59:17 PM)

quote:

I wouldn't call it a pathology, but there's certainly common patterns in most Ds relationships that lends itself to such easily.

Remember- scared people are people who are easy to control. A lot of focus on Ds is about being in control. The scares subs want doms to control them so they can feel secure, doms find it easy to control someone scared.

More than anything I see most subs as control freaks and perfectionists. What other personal relationship do people get into where they do something correct 99 times but that LAST time they do it wrong and they get punished for it? What other personal relationship exists where the priary REASON for the relationship is so that one person can serve and be pleasing to the other? I think this is why so many subs want a vanilla core of love and devotion as the REASON for the relationship, with service and pleasing being how they express their love, it makes things a lot easier to be secure when there's an emotional tie.

Emeraldslave2


The core of the D/s or M/s relationship i envision and want is not "vanilla" or in any way subject to derision. It is the reason i seek a Man of Great Character; because i want a Man i respect as a Man above and beyond all else.

i agree with some of what you said, but i disagree that frightened people are easier to control. i found the opposite to be true; it was EXTREMELY difficult to communicate with battered woman in the process of leaving. i made them take notes; i gave notes; i said everything three times. Extremely high anxiety -- particularly of a man who has leveled a threat about leaving -- makes LISTENING very, very hard. Working with these women taxed all my skills.

To a lesser degree, my witnesses from state government were almost as bad. Fearful of retribution, they lied, distorted the truth, tried to destroy memos, etc. Acquiring their trust so that you have assembled something resembling the facts was a major difficulty in my early years as a litigator.

Maybe there experiences have no relevance to BDSM, but i did feel strongly that you were incorrect in saying the frightened person is easier to control. i have found just the opposite. But then , reasonable people can disagree.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 5:07:29 PM)

quote:

Actually my line of thought of this wasn't in the direction of someone else putting fear into the sub, or manipulating the fear of the sub, but to the specific topic- feelings of worth. If a person does not feel worthy, or is afraid that they aren't, they will look to another person to affirm things, to latch onto, to be secure.

That fear alone, the fear from the person themselves, can be MORE than enough to keep someone under control for a long time...all those relationships that go "I'm not really happy...but I'm afraid to lose what I have" are all statements of being afraid of one's ACTUAL sense of worth, and being controlled by it.

Emeraldslave2


Em, if you're referring to abusive relationships, this just is not true. The abuser certainly tries to instil a fear that the woman (or man) cannot survive on their own, as an adult, possibly with children. However, so much goes on prior to that; the apex is loving/hating the abuser due to his great affection and contrite behavior, followed by random beatings (for which he always gives a reason; keeping alive the illusion that the woman (or man) being abused could somehow satisfy him and he'd stop hitting her (or him). There's a tremendous alteration of cognitive dissonance going on...and it is only recently (say, the mid '90's) that society recognised battering as much more than a private affair which occasssionaly became a nuisance. There were the dark ages, when no one spoke out; no MD reported; police "handled" complaining women, etc.

And still, homicide by a significant other is a leading cause of death by women in this country.

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 5:17:26 PM)

quote:

Exactly Em - I get more compliments for going barefoot than wearing my expensive heels - and your right about the questioning of worth - in an age where everything is so consumer orientated and commercial, what puzzles me is why some submissive types feel less worth when quality is essential to people? In an age stiving for perfection, is this why any personal 'difference' is seen as imperfection and fault?

dark~angel


i myself (with no BDSM experience, but nonetheless opinionated) feel it takes a strong, happy, secure woman to submit....a woman seeking rescue will not be able to reach the depth of relationship available...and may use questionable characteristics when choosing a Man.

Personally, if do not care if He is a prince or a pauper...although i have never met a millionaire i respected. So i suppose i have a bias. i do not want to support another adult financially, nor do i want a Man whose financial life is a state of chaos of His own making.

Costumes and toys and such are very nice; but must be weilded by a Man i respect or i'd just walk.

pinkpleasures



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 5:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
i agree with some of what you said, but i disagree that frightened people are easier to control. i found the opposite to be true; it was EXTREMELY difficult to communicate with battered woman in the process of leaving. i made them take notes; i gave notes; i said everything three times. Extremely high anxiety -- particularly of a man who has leveled a threat about leaving -- makes LISTENING very, very hard. Working with these women taxed all my skills.

To a lesser degree, my witnesses from state government were almost as bad. Fearful of retribution, they lied, distorted the truth, tried to destroy memos, etc. Acquiring their trust so that you have assembled something resembling the facts was a major difficulty in my early years as a litigator.

Or maybe you're just really bad at keeping things/people under control?

In your examples they weren't afraid of YOU, or YOU taking away something that they needed. Thus, your efforts didn't really matter. For the person they WERE afraid of, or if a person knew how to look into them and manipulate their pre-existing insecurities, it wouldn't be that hard- THAT is what they feared and THAT is what was controlling them. Look no further than all the people who get into and stay into abusive relationships again and again and again.

In order to control someone who is afraid, it's often better if you can also control what they fear. It's not always necessary, but it helps.

And note what I said before- fear is only one way of controlling people, and usually doesn't work long term.



pinkpleasures -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/1/2005 8:00:39 PM)

quote:

Or maybe you're just really bad at keeping things/people under control?

In your examples they weren't afraid of YOU, or YOU taking away something that they needed. Thus, your efforts didn't really matter. For the person they WERE afraid of, or if a person knew how to look into them and manipulate their pre-existing insecurities, it wouldn't be that hard- THAT is what they feared and THAT is what was controlling them. Look no further than all the people who get into and stay into abusive relationships again and again and again.

In order to control someone who is afraid, it's often better if you can also control what they fear. It's not always necessary, but it helps.

And note what I said before- fear is only one way of controlling people, and usually doesn't work long term.

Emeraldslave2


Off the top of my head, the only person i have tried to control was my own kid...and during her teenage years that was a real battle..but she's happy and successful and has a good man, so i am pleased with her choices and values.

Leaving an abuser is the single most dangerous point in the relationship, and yes, i think my clients sometimes feared me, because i urged them on against instincts pounded into them. All my clients successfully left their abusive relationships, and insofar as i know, none found a new abuser to replace the old. The abuser has tried hard to create a "headspace" for a woman (or man) he is battering, and once that spell is broken, the women i knew were couragous and moved on to self-sufficieny.

i think we are talkimg past one another; i suppose a fear of heights might enhance or detract from suspension..for example. That is not the sort of fear i am referring to.

pinkpleasuresf



brightspot -> RE: Feelings of Worth (9/2/2005 12:16:47 AM)

quote:

Off the top of my head, the only person i have tried to control was my own kid...and during her teenage years that was a real battle..


This is Not meant as a Flame!!! but only MHO.

PP as I read your quote above, thoughts come to my mind...you say the only person you have tried to control is your daughter.
As I experience and from all your string of posts, 4 just on this page, that you have very deep control issues, IMHO.

This thread was begun by Lily, she asked about certain things in her original opening post.
How I have experienced this fora, and I have been here for some time is that a person starts a post and usually will ask for some kind of response...then in turn will respond to the answers they receive.

I am very confused why you feel you must comment on almost every single post that Lily receives to her opening post????
I feel it is Lily's place to do so. Not to say you shouldn't have your say to the OP, but that is where I think your response should be focused.
This, here, at CM I have considered and appreciated as a common courtesy.

Your profile states you have been here what 2 months? And have how many posts? 652 is what is says...I know people who have been here many more moons and have maybe a pair of handcuffs...because they post when they have the feeling they have something really important to graciously share with others, respectfully most often the OP.

I really appreciate hearing responses to the original posters inquiries and find it very intrusive to have someone else respond to people's responses outside of the original poster. This may be difficult for you to understand, just wanted to share what I have been noticing and hope people will have more respect for anothers thread by my sharing these thoughts.

It is my hope PP that you do not take this on a personal note, but instead as a eye opener, so that you may be less adament about needing everyone who posts hear your personal opinions on what they have to say as a response to the opening poster.

It seems to me kind of a manipulative way to hi-jack a thread and constantly bring the focus back to yourself,
when this thread I feel should be focused on what Lily started and how she choses to respond to the people who respond to her.

If you want to respond to everyone who posts I think it only courteous to start your own threads.
I know I make my mistakes, I try to learn from them and move on and you are not the only one here who can be a teacher to others.


To the Mods..I really did try and express my opinion with out flaming and I want you to know I have now blocked PP and will no longer have any reason react to her anywhere in this fora from now on, I only hope you understand my needing to say what I did.

*Brightspot



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