Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 6:26:28 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

With the fact that most people are now online, and various governments encouraging internet within the home, what do we think about the role of politicians and their place of meeting?

Could it be that senates and parliaments are now becoming obsolete and if we are all to be involved with the political process, could the internet be the next parliament?

Will votes on issues be done by the people of a country rather than an elected representative?

What are our views on this as a possible fairer and more representable system?

My thoughts, the thoughts that prompted this posting are that the role of government and policy making is largely kept from us, our only input might be a vote for a person who is not as bad as the other candidates running for a position of office. Fine, they are supposed to represent us, but largely don't, possibly for fear of their peers.

For example, this forthcoming bill on internet and printed pornographic material here in Britain, though I would say a lot of us have lobbied our political representative, how many of those representatives have voiced our concerns in parliament, how many have kept schtum for fear of being on the side of deviants and the thought that taking our side would open them to ridicule by their peers and the gutter press and there wreck their careers.

To me, internet is the way, because on forums, people without fear of others say what they think, their truth, not the facade they adopt in public. I would also like to see the people that own this country have more say in what happens in this country.

What do others here think?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

Profile

Post #: 1

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 9:56:12 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

If you were coughing up blood, would you want to have the diagnosis prepared by an online collaborative work of your fellow citizens who's medical training consisted of watching Scrubs?

Not to sound elitist, but much as we bemoan politicians as being lousy, frankly I can't imagine what would happen to a country run purely by populace.

Imagine the 'red headed' tax. About 2% of humans have red hair. To fund a new project, we institute the 'red head' tax; every person with red hair is obligated to pay 80% of their income in taxes.

Now replace the word 'red' with 'rich.'

This is what direct democracy would become.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Aneirin)

Profile

Post #: 2

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 10:52:55 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

We can do with the House of Representatives, the Senate is now totally useless.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Stephann)

Profile

Post #: 3

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 11:01:44 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

I agree with Stephan. Also lawmaking is a rather busy job that is full time several onths of the year. Regular people, would not have the time to participate fully, giving the nuts and unemployed people with all day to sit on line more power. It would basically end up with people voting lists, with no real thought. In a computer voting system, no one would trust.

A realted thought I have had would be to have the entire session of the legislature occur on line. Require every conversation and speech to be conducted in public (of course some stuff would be blocked for security reasons) but 90% could be open. Have the entire session recorded and available for viewing. This idea is extra relevant for my state, which is very large and low populated.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Profile

Post #: 4

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 11:14:45 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I agree with Stephan. Also lawmaking is a rather busy job that is full time several onths of the year. Regular people, would not have the time to participate fully, giving the nuts and unemployed people with all day to sit on line more power. It would basically end up with people voting lists, with no real thought. In a computer voting system, no one would trust.

A realted thought I have had would be to have the entire session of the legislature occur on line. Require every conversation and speech to be conducted in public (of course some stuff would be blocked for security reasons) but 90% could be open. Have the entire session recorded and available for viewing. This idea is extra relevant for my state, which is very large and low populated.

I disagree with your thought that those who stay home all day would be the only voters, not the regular people, as with everything comes boredom.Perhaps a novelty at first, but the stay at homes would soon tire of it.

If such a system were to be put in place, those topics of national interest should be reserved for peak viewing times.

All my thoughts were on this subject, was that people do get the chance to have their views on a subject listened too by means of a vote, or even a suggestion to improve on that question.

Why is it that the last election was so poorly attended, I believe less than fifty percent of the voting population voted, could this be because politicians fail to represent our needs, so the thought is, same ol, same ol, oh, why bother.

I do think we all should have more of a say other than a tick in a box every now and again.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to luckydog1)

Profile

Post #: 5

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 11:14:56 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We can do with the House of Representatives, the Senate is now totally useless.

Only because we no longer have a vested interest in State's rights over the Feds.

This is why the EPA can pander to the Big 3 Automakers, against the express wishes and laws of the States in 'defense' of the Clean Air Act.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to popeye1250)

Profile

Post #: 6

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 11:32:08 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Anerin, I am not sure of the details of the English system. But in America, we have more of a say than a tick in the box every few years, and I bet you do also. We can start a process of Constitutional Amendment. Or attempt to run for office. Start/join a pressure group. Most states have a petition process. Become a lawyer. Become Media. You can have a say in many different ways, but other people do not have to listen to you. Is that where your problem lies.

This really is a rehash of the debate over a Direct Democracy vs a Limited Republic, with a fancy shiny ornament (internet voting), that really doesn't change anything. I choose Limited Republic. And don't really like computer voting.

Doesn't mean I love the dinosouar system we have. I like the idea of two houses, but I would make a significant change to our current system.

I would like to see the House of Representatives become a Parliment with a national electoin, divorced from the States entirerly. And keep the Senate as the Representatives of the States. I think this would be a very positive change for the US, and allow smaller parties to have a meaningfull, but not disproportionate voice. Any criticism of my idea would be most appreciated....what is the downside I don't see?

(in reply to Stephann)

Profile

Post #: 7

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 11:49:00 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

I also disagree with the premise that we need to make it easier to vote, to get a higher turnout. There is nothing hard about voting. Most people don't know or care about politics. Nothing is gained by having them flip a lever based on something that stuck in their head while watching TV, or who they think is sexier. In a perfect world I would have an inteligence test for voting, but understand why that isn't going to happen. If people are uneducated and don't care about Politics, I would prefer they don't vote.

There is also an issue of scale, which you seem to acknowledge with the peak times and reserved time, but that basically requires Moderaters. Which is fine here, but I would take to the streets, If Mod 11 had the power to Moderate the National Debate, real power over me. I am sure she doesn't want to, and don't mean this as a slam. Please don't punish me <smile>.

And what about people who work at hospitals and such durring peak times? would they be excluded?

Again the idea that every single citizen all, 300,000,000 of us, has the right to have the Government listen to them, would completely paralyze the Government. There would be a never ending line. Either it would be a meaningless complaint box hooked to a trash can, or nothing at all would ever get accomplished. Or it would run by the Moderators, who would be tied up in endless litigation. Imagine the nightmares if people could sue the Mods. Or they could not be challenged (as in here)you would essentially have a dictatorship of the Moderators. Which has an interesting ring for a Science Fiction story, but not as practical Governance.

If you want to be listened to, get a group of citizens to start listening to you. If you get a large number, politicians will listen to you. But don't try to rework the system so you get to force people to listen to you. That isn't going to fly

(in reply to luckydog1)

Profile

Post #: 8

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 11:58:42 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I disagree with your thought that those who stay home all day would be the only voters, not the regular people, as with everything comes boredom.Perhaps a novelty at first, but the stay at homes would soon tire of it.

If such a system were to be put in place, those topics of national interest should be reserved for peak viewing times.

All my thoughts were on this subject, was that people do get the chance to have their views on a subject listened too by means of a vote, or even a suggestion to improve on that question.

Why is it that the last election was so poorly attended, I believe less than fifty percent of the voting population voted, could this be because politicians fail to represent our needs, so the thought is, same ol, same ol, oh, why bother.

I do think we all should have more of a say other than a tick in a box every now and again.

People dont vote for a reason, they have figured out that not one party sticks to its pre-election pledges. The only interest mosy politicians seem to have is self serving anyhow.

Gordon Brown said last week that there hadnt been any offers to take over Northing Rock from TSB last Autumn. Thats a complete lie, TSB did make an offer but wanted guaranteed bonds and the government said no. The plunge on NR could have been avereted but Brown had his eye on one thing, should he or should he not call an election.

Its no wonder that the public dont bother to vote, although i always do myself. As for voting by computer, no way, its far to open for fraud and hackers and whats to stop people keeping tabs on how you vote. As things stand, we vote them in and have a chance to vote them out, if only the tossers would call an election today !

(in reply to Aneirin)

Profile

Post #: 9

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 12:03:17 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Anierin,

In the extension of a theme luckydog touched on:

To believe that our votes are worthless, is to declare democracy worthless. The reality is that voter apathy has more to do with the competition involved with voting. If you feel your vote isn't worth much now, how will you feel when it becomes swallowed up by three times as many people voting?

The fact is, there are political opportunities for every citizen to have their voice heard; starting or maintaining political action committees, starting a new political party, newsletters, blogs, alternative news outlets, the list goes on. People who feel they aren't being heard, simply aren't speaking loudly enough.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to luckydog1)

Profile

Post #: 10

RE: Parliaments,Senates and dinosaurs - 1/24/2008 12:06:25 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

One other thing I forogt to mention. You vote everytime you spend money (or don't so really every action is heard by the system). Every cent you spend tells the system what you are voting for. Not the peopel trying to guide the system, the actuall thing.

But it hears what you really want (as evidenced by your actions), not what you say you want.

(in reply to Stephann)

Profile

Post #: 11