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"Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 2:06:27 PM   
FirmhandKY


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The Hummer!

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

...

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

...


The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.

That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

...

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius.

Firm

Really, REALLY

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 2:30:45 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Did you bother checking into this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius#Lifetime_energy_cost

BTW my Prius has an after market plug in conversion and I haven't filled it up since early December while driving it virtually every day, it's been bone chilling cold and I decided to pay for a parking spot rather than stand out in the cold waiting for the "L". When was the last time you put gas in your car? How much is gas now anyway, I never bother looking antmore?

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 3:01:11 PM   
cadenas


Posts: 517
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		That story is years old and was debunked. If these numbers were correct, I would spend more than my annual salary driving my Prius. Which is obviously nonsensical since I do manage to also pay my grocery bill.

CNW Research, who came up with that study, made two major mistakes. First, they assigned the Prius a very low life span. In reality, the Prius in California has a battery warranty for 150,000 miles, and my mechanic tells me that he is now seeing many with 200k to 300k on it. On top of that, they also count the same energy going into the manufacture several times.

Also, the cost was based on 2005 data. In 2006, even that report itself quoted a much lower number for the Prius ($2.87). Add to that the much higher gas prices today, and the numbers really are way off. Once you correct the errors in that study, the Hummer is clearly the far more expensive car by a wide margin.


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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 3:40:30 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Why would anyone want to verify a story? It doesn't begin to suprise me. Firm is a believer it doesn't take factual information to get him motivated enough to reproduce a story...just as long as it fits his overall conservative agenda...The truth is just a mere inconvenience for people like Firm. Nothing to base an opinion on.

Typical.

I immediately googled the article and the author. I have never passed on an article without doing so. I get a ton of crap emailed to me by friends....Some to the left some to the right. I never pass it onward without finding out if it is credible. People with no regard for the truth will just send it on....Wow.

I don't have the time nor the technical expertise to determine which side of the story is correct...But here are some interesting links if one is so inclined to realize there is usually more than one side to the story.

http://www.betterworldclub.com/articles/hummer-not-more-efficient.htm

Here is something I pulled from another source....It is interesting as I read through it and it seems to make some sense.

1. Take the "spitting distance" mileage, for example. The new EPA combined mileage put the Chevy Aveo at 26 mpg, the Toyota Prius at 46 mpg. So I guess 20 miles more per gallon is "spitting distance."

2. The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm, not a science journal. It arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/ ). And, insofar as a car lasting, what car do you expect to repair less? A Toyota Prius or a GM Hummer? You can check Consumer Reports for the answer to that one.

3. The Sudbury info is seriously outdated, and the comment about moon buggies (like, when did Nasa test moon buggies — early 1970’s) ought to give you a clue. Sudbury was polluted by a century of mining. In fact, some of Sudbury’s nickel went into making the Statue of Liberty. Currently, the mine is owned by INCO (not Toyota), and produces 100,000 tons of nickel a year, of which Toyota buys 1000 tons. Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make stainless steel. The Mail on Sunday newspaper, which ran the story the college article is a thin re-write of (visible here http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=417227&in_page_id=1770 ), used a stock photo from 1994 to illustrate the pollution (visible here http://www.photoboy.com/bin/Cklb?vmo=1173985067754 ). There, ahem, were as yet 0 Prius built in 1994.


Sudbury is no longer as polluted, as INCO and the city have planted over 8 million trees there since 1979. You can see reports on that on the Sudbury city website at http://www.city.greatersudbury.on.ca/cms/index.cfm?app=div_landreclamation&lang=en

The acid rain problem David Martin of Greenpeace is talking about in is the situation pre 1972!

INCO on regreening and SO2 emissions
http://www.inco.com/development/community/profiles/sudbury/default.aspx
INCO on hybrids batteries
http://www.inco.com/newscentre/featurestories/apr1305.aspx

< Message edited by domiguy -- 1/25/2008 3:41:48 PM >

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 4:26:02 PM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline 		So glad I drive a Volvo!    Screw the environment, I care about my safety!  

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 6:27:58 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		FirmhandKY:
Your link says that the Prius only gets 45 mpg at 80mph.  Where in the U.S. is it legal to drive 80mph. on a public highway?
thompson

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 6:29:56 PM   
DieselPowered


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

FirmhandKY:
Your link says that the Prius only gets 45 mpg at 80mph.  Where in the U.S. is it legal to drive 80mph. on a public highway?
thompson


The Long Stretch of I-80/90 from Indiana into Pennsylvania cars are allowed up to 75 but the State Bear wont touch you if you set cruise at a lil over 80    i have done this so i know first hand i have a 95 buick Skylark, on a full tank with cruise set at 82 i got a lil over 325 miles on a full tank


< Message edited by DieselPowered -- 1/25/2008 6:31:39 PM >

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 6:30:47 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

So glad I drive a Volvo!    Screw the environment, I care about my safety!  

rubberpet:
I would suggest that breathing clean air is also good for your health and safety.
thompson

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 6:35:29 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DieselPowered

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

FirmhandKY:
Your link says that the Prius only gets 45 mpg at 80mph.  Where in the U.S. is it legal to drive 80mph. on a public highway?
thompson


The Long Stretch of I-80/90 from Indiana into Pennsylvania cars are allowed up to 75 but the State Bear wont touch you if you set cruise at a lil over 80    i have done this so i know first hand


DieselPowered:
My point is that it is not legal. 
That you get away with it is hardly relevant.
thompson

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 6:37:05 PM   
DieselPowered


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Status: offline 		actually most states, although it is not written you are allowed up to a max of 10 miles over the limit in most states without the city kittys, county bountys or state bear bothering you, so weather it was legal or not can be debated all night lol but im just saying, it is allowed and in montana you are able to do 80 legally over the long stretchs of highway and desert

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 6:57:06 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DieselPowered

actually most states, although it is not written you are allowed up to a max of 10 miles over the limit in most states without the city kittys, county bountys or state bear bothering you, so weather it was legal or not can be debated all night lol but im just saying, it is allowed and in montana you are able to do 80 legally over the long stretchs of highway and desert

DieselPowered:
My point still stands.
It is illegal to drive 80mph. in the U.S.  Montana is in the U.S. and it is illegal to drive 80mph. there also.
This discussion is not about whether you can get away with breaking the "maximum speed law" but whether it is illegal.  This is in reference to the article about Hummers being more cost effective than a Prius.  The cite that the OP gives to substantiate his position uses the comment that at 80mph the Prius only gets 45 mpg.  If it is illegal to go 80mph. then why use that number to gage fuel economy? 
If you wish to depend on the charity of "da bear" when you drive then please by all means be my guest.
thompson

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 7:04:10 PM   
DieselPowered


Posts: 199
Joined: 5/15/2007
Status: offline 		ok well from that standpoint i would tend to agree, however i have heard good and bad things about Hummers and the Prius, as well as good and bad things about many other types of cars, but take into account, ok so it gets 45 mph to the gallon at 80, and yes by US law no place is set higher then 70-75 at most, but most auto makers design their cars to the intent that not EVERY motorist strictly follows the posted speed limit, not that im saying auto makers design cars to co-hearce people into breaking the law, but auto makers i think make cars as they tend to see/gauge how people will be driving them, some days yes i tend to lead foot it, but most other days i take my time, lving in maine i tend to enjoy the scenery around my home driving too and from work but figuring how many people out there drive like their are in Nascar, well the GPM tends to slide into place at one point or another

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 7:08:40 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		mercedes got a cute little car from 11,5 to about 16,5 and an every day car 31 in town and 45 highway, we shall see, the issue is that nobody, even getty could afford to drive in america at 3 bucks a gallon. 

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 7:54:10 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Darn, Domi,

I believed Domken when he posted the link to the wiki article.

The article did tickle my funny bone, and I thought I'd share it.

If I were really all interested in defending it, I'd probably take the later studies, and the "debunking" of this study and throw doubt and confusion all over the place.

But I don't do that just for fun.

Anymore. Much.     

Firm


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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/25/2008 7:55:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

FirmhandKY:
Your link says that the Prius only gets 45 mpg at 80mph.  Where in the U.S. is it legal to drive 80mph. on a public highway?
thompson


thompson,

It ain't about what's legal. It's about what's common.

Firm


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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/26/2008 7:17:32 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		So long as you ease up a bit when near certain city limits, 80 mph is only five over when flying low on I-84 through all of Southern Idaho, from the Utah border to the Snake River bridge at the Oregon border. Hardly anyone goes that slow though...

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/26/2008 7:42:45 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DieselPowered

actually most states, although it is not written you are allowed up to a max of 10 miles over the limit in most states without the city kittys, county bountys or state bear bothering you,



MAYBE.

The fact of the matter is, for New York for example, the boundary between a "Major Speed" and "Minor Speed" is 14 mph over the posted limit.

So, if you're doing only TEN mph over posted, it's LIKELY that the Trooper will wait for someone doing 15+ over, as the penalties and fines are significantly higher.

HOWEVER, if the trooper is bored, or for some other reason has nothing better to do, they MIGHT nail you.

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/26/2008 8:19:44 AM   
DieselPowered


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quote:

MAYBE.

The fact of the matter is, for New York for example, the boundary between a "Major Speed" and "Minor Speed" is 14 mph over the posted limit.

So, if you're doing only TEN mph over posted, it's LIKELY that the Trooper will wait for someone doing 15+ over, as the penalties and fines are significantly higher.

HOWEVER, if the trooper is bored, or for some other reason has nothing better to do, they MIGHT nail you.


Yea that is also another possiblity but take it from a guy whos driven coast to coast, especially in my truck, they tend to wait, yea if it is a slow day and your doing 10+ he might, or might not pull you over, he generaly flips a coin ((i have seen a cop do this lol)) its a funny story really but i am constantly on I-80/90 from Ohio to Illinios and vise versa on my runs through the US, and on I-80 heading out west i can have gotten away with setting my cruise at 80, so wether you debate legallity or not, no one ever consistantly ((minus most elderly people)) ever do the speed limit consistantly

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RE: "Green"?: Vehicle better than Prius ... - 1/26/2008 8:46:05 AM   
rubberpet


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From: The Land of Voodoo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

So glad I drive a Volvo!    Screw the environment, I care about my safety!  

rubberpet:
I would suggest that breathing clean air is also good for your health and safety.
thompson


True, but I'll probably be dead before the air is too toxic to breathe!  So, go Volvo!

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