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Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 5:01:57 AM

MissMorrigan

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That got you all looking!

Breadmakers... Now before you grimace and dismiss me, I have a Morphy Richards breadmaker and ALL recipes in the booklet require skimmed milk powder. I have made bread before (without the use of the breadmaker) and have never incorporated skimmed milk powder into any of my former recipes. The booklet does not explain why this is a necessary ingredient and having searched on the internet I came up empty handed.

So, does anyone know why this ingredient is a requirement for bread? Currently, I am omitting it and my bread comes out a little denser, milk isn't a raising agent so I'm wondering why this occurs. Dense bread, dense owner at present! So, scientists among you, help me out.

Post #: 1

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 5:20:16 AM

venusinblu

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As a baker myself, this intrigued me .. I found this .. it appears it's use is a 'prover' ... <shrug> ...

Skimmed milk in bread

A. SKIM MILKS IN BREAD DOUGHS While most everyone recognizes the value of whole milk, the majority of people are apt to underestimate the true value of skim milk as a food and as an “improver” for bread and other bakery products. In order to illustrate the true value of skim milk one authority on the use of milk in bakery products has very nicely compared milk to meat in the following manner:— “Meat consists of a fat portion and a lean portion, both of them valuable food,—but of these two, the lean meat is the more valuable as human food than the fat. In the same way, milk consists of a fat portion and a lean portion (namely, skim milk). Of these two, the lean portion, that is the skim milk, has really the greater nutritive and other value, though its cost is actually less. Lean meat is that part which contains the protein, salts, etc. Skim milk, in a similar way, is that part of the milk which contains the protein and salts so that it is a fair comparison to refer to skim milk as the “lean meat of milk.” Of course, butter is an excellent food possessing an exceptionally fine flavor, and whole milk carrying its normal proportion of butter fat is unexcelled for use in bakery products. However, butter fat is very expensive, and the cost involved, in many cases, limits the amount which is used for bread making. Therefore, in order to secure the improved loaf characteristics afforded by the other milk constituents, various forms of skim milk are being used in increasing amounts by progressive bakers.

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RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 5:47:06 AM

RCdc

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If you are using a standard bread brit/us flour, then you will get a heavier loaf in a bread maker, because of the gluten content. My recommendation is you shop for a strong french flour. Milk isn't a traditional ingredient in bread, it simply makes it 'puff up' and is used to make a more risen, fuller loaf(kinda like adding air I am surmising) so I am guessing that the way a breadmaker deals with dough is completely different to how you do when worked by hand.

the.dark.

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RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 5:53:16 AM

MissMorrigan

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Venus, that's a great help, thank you for finding that out for me. Now I know why my bread comes out a lot denser than when I've made it previously by hand - enough to knock a person unconscious at 20 paces should they upset me!

I've been making some lovely breads as of late that contain sun-dried tomatoes, black olives and onion. Delicious when served with home-made soup - I make an oven charred tomato/balsamic and aubergine soup and it's perfect for the kinds of breads that I make. No wonder my arse has the gravitational pull of a small moon!

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Post #: 4

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 5:58:02 AM

MissMorrigan

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You're right, I've noticed that the bread in a breadmaker doesn't rise as much as when I have made bread by hand... I opted for the breadmaker b/c I can just shove the ingredients in and forget about it until I need to use the loaf. The downside, as you said, is that the bread is heavier/denser.

Thanks for your suggestion, I'll try a strong french flour.

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Post #: 5

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 6:51:04 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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lol- i own 2 broken breadmakers- from thrift stores. they cost $170 or $3 broke. lol piece of trash!

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Post #: 6

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:07:07 AM

Real0ne

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yep I agree, and there is always the possibility of bad yeast. there is a lot of crappy yeast out there too.

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RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:34:09 AM

MissMorrigan

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I had to laugh, Pahunkboy! I can't believe they would cost so much new to buy there, if anything, I'd have thought they'd be cheaper to purchase in the US. Mine cost £43 and has been churning out 2lb loaves with little effort on my part - I throw in the ingredients, when the buzzer goes off I add the extra ingredients such as sundried tomatoes, herbs, onions and olives, and have even converted my partner's nan from her traditional glue-white loaf into eating wholemeal breads. The only disappointment, but then I guess I'm expecting way too much for my money, is that it doesn't slice the bread when it's finished cooking it

The only problem I do have with it is that it has a tendency to cook the bread for too long so that even on a light setting, the crust would break teeth so I cut back 20 minutes of the cooking time. If I want to be really evil I'll bake some rolls at full time so that they're rock hard and tell the kids there's a nice treat inside each one - names/numbers of local dentists!

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Post #: 8

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:47:05 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

The only problem I do have with it is that it has a tendency to cook the bread for too long so that even on a light setting, the crust would break teeth so I cut back 20 minutes of the cooking time. If I want to be really evil I'll bake some rolls at full time so that they're rock hard and tell the kids there's a nice treat inside each one - names/numbers of local dentists!

My bread maker has a light, medium and dark setting as well. I think most do. However the light is as you stated. Hard as a rock on the top, I've never tried dark before but I imagine you wouldn't be able to cut through it with a saw.
You would think in all these years breakmakers have been out. Someone would have made a test loaf and fixed the issue.

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Post #: 9

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 8:03:50 AM

MissMorrigan

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The first time I used it I discovered that the light setting means it's well done, the medium equates to nuking it and I don't even want to attempt it on dark.

The eagle has landed and just dropped a perfectly made 2lb 0oz wholemeal loaf which, after not having eaten all day, I've just finished eating a slice and it's delicious.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 10

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 8:05:02 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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Hi Miss, yes- one would think cheaper here. Most people buy white bleached bread- on the shelf. many cant appreciate fresh baked bread.

my freind Jenny also has a broken bread machine- hers doesnt mead- mine doent bake- so im hoping between teh 2 i can bake bread. since i moved i dont have a stove oven - the coppoer wire is too expensive to run a 220 from the eletric box to the ktichen- [mayabe 70 feet of wire]

anyhow broken junk- yup- thats US bric-a-brak. lol

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Post #: 11

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 10:39:34 AM

MissMorrigan

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Hello to you too, Pa

I saw a documentary some years ago regarding the effects of eating white bread on the digestive system. It showed how simple glue is made for kids with flour/water, then showed the effects of eating bread as it travelled through the digestive system... and sticks there - like glue, and the advice being given regarding bread was not to eat it unless it was the wholewheat/whole grain breads, but even then, to keep daily intake to a minimal. I can keep away from white bread, although I have the occasional weakness and give in to a toasted panini, but on the whole, stick to wholegrain breads and prefer those I make myself... at least that way I know exactly what's gone into them and find that b/c they don't have all that air shoved into them, one slice is very filling.

I think you also meant 'bric-a-break'

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Post #: 12

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 10:42:17 AM

MissMorrigan

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Especially among women!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
yep I agree, and there is always the possibility of bad yeast. there is a lot of crappy yeast out there too.

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Post #: 13

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 3:30:46 PM

thornhappy

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Joined: 12/16/2006
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Arrrrr, and that nonfat dried milk is a curse for the lactose intolerant. Nothing like eating some fine bread, only for it to react like a bomb in the gut.

Gimmee old school or sourdough bread, matey.

Sorry, just had to let the inner pirate out.

thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: venusinblu

As a baker myself, this intrigued me .. I found this .. it appears it's use is a 'prover' ... <shrug> ...

Skimmed milk in bread

A. SKIM MILKS IN BREAD DOUGHS While most everyone recognizes the value of whole milk, the majority of people are apt to underestimate the true value of skim milk as a food and as an “improver” for bread and other bakery products. In order to illustrate the true value of skim milk one authority on the use of milk in bakery products has very nicely compared milk to meat in the following manner:— “Meat consists of a fat portion and a lean portion, both of them valuable food,—but of these two, the lean meat is the more valuable as human food than the fat. In the same way, milk consists of a fat portion and a lean portion (namely, skim milk). Of these two, the lean portion, that is the skim milk, has really the greater nutritive and other value, though its cost is actually less. Lean meat is that part which contains the protein, salts, etc. Skim milk, in a similar way, is that part of the milk which contains the protein and salts so that it is a fair comparison to refer to skim milk as the “lean meat of milk.” Of course, butter is an excellent food possessing an exceptionally fine flavor, and whole milk carrying its normal proportion of butter fat is unexcelled for use in bakery products. However, butter fat is very expensive, and the cost involved, in many cases, limits the amount which is used for bread making. Therefore, in order to secure the improved loaf characteristics afforded by the other milk constituents, various forms of skim milk are being used in increasing amounts by progressive bakers.

(in reply to venusinblu)

Post #: 14

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 6:53:25 PM

ravennfyre

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Joined: 6/23/2007
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I only use my bread machine for the mixing/kneading process...I turn the dough out and let it rise twice before baking...I also use wild yeast instead of storebought yeast...I've had some wild yeast starter going for pretty close to ten years now...

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Post #: 15

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 6:54:42 PM

sharainks

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I've never wanted a breadmaker. Here is what I've found about using milk in bread. Its not needed. It adds calories and fat. You get a lighter puffier bread without milk. If using whole grains you get more of the grain and yeast taste.

I've made homemade yeast rolls for years and the recipe doesn't call for milk. Many people tell me I make the best yeast rolls they've ever eaten and I happen to think a lot of that is the lack of milk in them.

I have just about totally quit using milk and dairy. There are a lot of health concerns with dairy that most people aren't aware of. It really bothers me that the govt will not make the public aware of the problems with dairy...but then its a big govt commodity and the dairy farmers contribute a lot to the politicians.

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RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:00:51 PM

angelic

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First off, what a surprising, but somehow refreshing thread! i received a bread machine for Christmas and i LOVE it. i have been experimenting most weekends. Here's the thing, the recipe booklet that came with the machine SUCKED. So i started searching on line and have found really wonderful breads that do not call for the powdered milk. In fact, most of the recipes i've found online do not call for powedered milk. In recipes that call for butter, i substitute olive oil and it comes out just great. If you would like me to email you any recipes (i do not have many, yet), write me on the other side. i am happy to share.

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RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:38:30 PM

Termyn8or

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Miss, if you eat French toast, use some of that bread for it. I mean it kicks ass. Figure on one large egg for each slice though.

You might never eat pancakes again.

T

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Post #: 18

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:45:23 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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I've been able to bypass the 'thick as a brick' product from bread machines by using the various packaged mixes from the grocery baking aisle and scrupulously following the directions and water measurements. The hawaiian sweet bread mix is great.

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Post #: 19

RE: Very Serious Thread - 1/29/2008 7:59:43 PM

Emperor1956

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A couple of things: the.dark (and others) are correct in that milk is not necessary in bread, but I wouldn't trash it totally. Milk adds fat (so do eggs) and milk adds color - more of a "cream" color if you use white flour. It makes for a finer crumb, and a smoother "mouth feel" which some bakers want. You rarely get milk added to commercial bread for two reasons: First, if you use actual liquid milk, you must scald it first. Otherwise the enzymes in the milk react badly with the enzymes in the yeast and the bread gets gummy. This step is difficult and many bakers avoid it. Second, milk is expensive.

I don't personally like breads with milk. I like a coarse crumb, and a crisp, Italian style crust. And you get that by using water.

By the way, miss morrigan, I suspect your recipes call for milk powder to avoid the need to scald the milk. If you use powdered milk you don't need to scald the liquid. BUT you do need to increase the liquid, or the bread will be too dense. Still, I'd bet the culprit is the kneading cycle of the machine, and not the milk.

I use our breadmakers to mix and do the first kneading, but frankly no machine made bread will rival a true hand-kneaded loaf. And besides...making bread is incredibly sensual (I bet you all know that) so why lose the best part to some machine? I will say that once in a while I will buy some of those prepackaged bread machine mixes, dump them in, and play with the ingredients. I made a whole wheat orange-ginger-spice bread that way once that was outstanding.

Happy kneading!

E

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