RE: watching your master/mistress submit

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RoughFN -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 8:57:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: verysweet The Top in Rough's scenario was not left tied on the bed---at least that's not how I read it. I don't see any real issues with safety either, because I view it as a scene negotiated between the two dominant figures. I'm curious as to what the OP meant by 'messing with the slave', and how he invisions him/her feeling when this scenario is running through his mind. Is there a particular angle you're going for in order to complete this scene? Is it better for you if the slave is humiliated/struggling? What exactly do you get out of it, if anything? That is correct. The domme was not left tied up at the end of the scene, just on the bed face down. The confusion might've been that I liked the idea of some theatrics on her part - staying there face down on the bed and not getting up for a few minutes. Adding to anticipation and concern on the part of the slave until she gets up to untie him and tend to him. In no way was I suggesting leaving two people tied up and unsupervised. As for the slave, I just view the scenario as a mindfuck type thing and that's why I posted because I really was curious as to how some slaves would feel they'd be affected by it. I'm not going to deny that there's of course some part of me that gets off on the concept of having a domme submit to me, but if it's just her playing along in the scenario, it doesn't really count, now does it? For the effect on the bottom? I don't know. If we're going to talk about realism and real life and all, that's actually more up to the domme getting topped as to what effect she'd be hoping to achieve in her slave. The uber top is almost more along for the ride and gets to hear about it after the fact. I definitely view it as more of a cooperative thing between two tops to confuse the slave than topping another topper. God, all these non-specific terms are gonna get confusing. I should've just started off with Bob, Alice, and Mike. So "messing with the slave" was just basically turning her world upside down and hearing about the results after the fact. She might be turned on, hurt, confused, any number of things. Is that healthy? Naah, probably not. But, again, it's up to the middle domme to ensure the safety and health of the slave. It's kinda funny, because the more I type it out and read the posts, the more it strikes me that the one in the middle is in charge and the uber top is just doing a favor in the scene. Interesting. What do I get out of it? I don't know, really. The concept has always struck me as neat and turned me on a bit, but there are no specific goals or endgame that I'm shooting for. Just a fantasy that strikes me as "hot" for some reason.

RCdc -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN See, I view the whole scenario as a mindfuck to mess with the sub mainly. What strikes you as so unkind about it? This - quote: He wouldn't have any prior knowledge of what's going to happen or that I'll be involved, just that he's been tied to a chair and that his lady will be doing something to him next. Your talking a non negociated scene with you having power over a submissive/slave who has not accepted your postition. Now if its a submissive that has already negociated being used by their dominant, theres no worries and it's not a shocking scene in the way you paint it. But if its not negociated, then yeah, it's a bit more shocking but also abuse of authority. quote: She might be turned on, hurt, confused, any number of things. Is that healthy? Naah, probably not. But, again, it's up to the middle domme to ensure the safety and health of the slave. Total cop out on your part. Of course you have responsibility for both. quote: What do I get out of it? I don't know, really. The concept has always struck me as neat and turned me on a bit, but there are no specific goals or endgame that I'm shooting for. Just a fantasy that strikes me as "hot" for some reason. What do you get out of it? By the looks of it, you seem to be under the impression you get to be top dog without being held accountable. the.dark.

GambitLeBeau -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:11:04 AM)
Agree with the above. Your scenario is a non-consentual abuse of the slave. It symbolises a mockery of the middle dominant's control, and this surely cannot workwell for many people. The scenario can ONLY work if the middle player is in control- if they weren't they would actually be submitting- and how could the slave have the same view of their dominant after that?

verysweet -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:13:15 AM)
quote: I'm sure the first thoughts when I come into the room would be, "Oh shit, what's this guy gonna do to me?" but it would quickly become obvious that I'm just there to top his mistress. I don't see where the bottom has any interaction with the 'uber-top', aside from watching the scene. I approached Rough's 'fantasy' as taking place within the confines of a healthy Dom/sub relationship. And I don't see how the submissive/bottom tied to the chair is in anyway submitting to anyone other than his/her mistress. Color me obtuse if need be. Edited to add: Interesting thread.

juliaoceania -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:16:14 AM)
quote: Total cop out on your part. Of course you have responsibility for both. I think this is why I would never see a dominant in the same way after he allowed such a thing to happen... he would be abdicating his authority and responsibility for me to someone else who was going to incapacitate us both... and that would be even more shocking if the dominant had the attitude that he wasn't responsible... The description of the dominant laying on the bed "broken" denotes being incapacitated in my mind, and anyone who has played with sadomasochism knows it does not take being a sub to be thrown into subspace and to need aftercare, bottoms need it too. How can a dominant be responsible for their sub if they are in space and overloaded biochemically... and there is no way that the "uber" top is going to be able to know how the dominant in question is going to respond to their ministrations

RoughFN -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:17:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Total cop out on your part. Of course you have responsibility for both. I disagree. Realistically, is it better for the slave's actual domme to tend to her after such a scene or for the random guy that just walked into the room and whipped her owner? I'm not saying that the slave shouldn't be cared for, but that the uber top probably wouldn't be the appropriate person to do it, at least not initially. I definitely think that the slave's own top would handle it much better. Would it even be useful for the uber top (and I'm just using that phrase to differentiate between which one I'm talking about, not trying to rank them or anything) to stick around after the slave has been tended to? Again, I'm just asking for opinions on the subject. quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark What do you get out of it? By the looks of it, you seem to be under the impression you get to be top dog without being held accountable. Naah, I don't think that's true at all. For me specifically, if the domme isn't really submitting and is just playing along, then she's not really submitting, now is she? Sure, it's fun to be able to run a torture scene and all, but it's not real D/s. Almost like the difference between running a demonstration and being actually involved. They're both enjoyable, but for different reasons. And (to everyone), I know that there are a hell of a lot more logistics to be worked out to ever make such a thing a reality. Is it even a healthy scene? Can it be done safely? Would it damage the sub badly? etc, etc, etc. It'd probably need to be with a couple that had at least discussed the concept before and the domme knows that the sub could handle it. I mean, if we're gonna talk about real life and all, I'll say that of course I wouldn't be interested in doing a scene like that that damages the slave's psyche and hurts her relationship with her master permanently. No fun in that and what would be the point? The whole situation may be completely unrealistic and untenable, but that's fine too. Some fantasies should stay fantasies. No harm in that.

juliaoceania -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:19:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: verysweet quote: I'm sure the first thoughts when I come into the room would be, "Oh shit, what's this guy gonna do to me?" but it would quickly become obvious that I'm just there to top his mistress. I don't see where the bottom has any interaction with the 'uber-top', aside from watching the scene. I approached Rough's 'fantasy' as taking place within the confines of a healthy Dom/sub relationship. And I don't see how the submissive/bottom tied to the chair is in anyway submitting to anyone other than his/her mistress. Color me obtuse if need be. Edited to add: Interesting thread. You do realize that bondage can be dangerous and someone needs to be responsible for a person that is tied up? At least in our relationship it works this way. If the person that is supposed to be responsible for a submissive is tied up herself, how in the hell can she be responsible and in control over her tied up sub?

RoughFN -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:22:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania The description of the dominant laying on the bed "broken" denotes being incapacitated in my mind, and anyone who has played with sadomasochism knows it does not take being a sub to be thrown into subspace and to need aftercare, bottoms need it too. How can a dominant be responsible for their sub if they are in space and overloaded biochemically... and there is no way that the "uber" top is going to be able to know how the dominant in question is going to respond to their ministrations Poor phrasing on my part. I really did picture that more as playing the part and acting in the scene as opposed to really incapacitating the domme. Granting the appearance of being broken. But that is a reasonable concern - if the domme really is truly submitting and getting far into subspace, then there would definitely be concern for tending to the slave after the fact. I hadn't thought of it that way, since I'd been assuming more that the domme would be keeping herself in control at least to a point that she's not sliding down that far. If she would be, that could definitely be problematic. Guess it's something to do only with people that don't have any switch tendencies. [:D]

ProlificNeeds -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:25:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GambitLeBeau For female subs to male doms, I'd suspect it to be even worse- they seem to have more of a feeling of protection from their dominants, and to see their protecter reduced to a plaything would severely weaken their bond in my eyes. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have always considered myself a shield for my partner, as much as they are a protector for me. Regardless if they are physically stronger than me, the only shelter I need from them is in our private relationship and affections. I am not a delicate flower.

juliaoceania -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:27:12 AM)
quote: But that is a reasonable concern - if the domme really is truly submitting and getting far into subspace, then there would definitely be concern for tending to the slave after the fact. I hadn't thought of it that way, since I'd been assuming more that the domme would be keeping herself in control at least to a point that she's not sliding down that far. If she would be, that could definitely be problematic. You do realize that subspace isn't a "submissive" thing? I just thought you may not be aware that masochists can achieve subspace as well as bottoms in a scene... just thought you might not be aware of it. You, as uber top never having tied up this dominant person have no idea how she is going to respond... and I will say again, how can the submissive's dom be responsible for the submissive when they are tied up? How can they top when they are bottoming? It just seems like you expect this submissive's dominant to be two places at once... And when the sub starts freaking out, calling safewords... what do you do? Do you ignore it? Do you stop the scene? If it is you who must stop the scene because the sub is freaking out, then yes YOU are taking the responsibility... and if you don't stop the scene, you are taking a legal risk..... you want to do that, go for it.

RCdc -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:29:53 AM)
But you are basically saying you have no responsibilty? So if the submissive freaks out and the relationship is fucked because they didn't know this scene was going to happen, you are devoid of responsibility? On one hand, you want the authority, but none of the responsibilty. Get your head out of the concept that its solely the owner dominants responsibility - she is submitting to you in this scenario yes? That places you as the authority figure and that means you have a certain amount of responsibility. Until you 'get' that you have some degree of responsibility you shouldn;t even be contemplating this scene at all. Or are you suggesting that you are the one submitting to her/him but topping to head fuck the submissive? Either way, the submissive is not head fucked but abused. If you take a slave who has never consented to being used by another, never agreed to head fucks of such magnitude, wasn't aware what you were going to do - you are creating an abusive situation. The fantasy is a fantasy if the slave as pre agreed to all these posibilities, but if they agreed, then there is no problem is there? Your question becomes void because it's already pre arranged. The fantasy is abuse when you take a slave or sub and subject them to a situation they have not agreed to. the.dark.

verysweet -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:33:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: verysweet quote: I'm sure the first thoughts when I come into the room would be, "Oh shit, what's this guy gonna do to me?" but it would quickly become obvious that I'm just there to top his mistress. I don't see where the bottom has any interaction with the 'uber-top', aside from watching the scene. I approached Rough's 'fantasy' as taking place within the confines of a healthy Dom/sub relationship. And I don't see how the submissive/bottom tied to the chair is in anyway submitting to anyone other than his/her mistress. Color me obtuse if need be. Edited to add: Interesting thread. You do realize that bondage can be dangerous and someone needs to be responsible for a person that is tied up? At least in our relationship it works this way. If the person that is supposed to be responsible for a submissive is tied up herself, how in the hell can she be responsible and in control over her tied up sub? Yes, of course I do. I 'assumed' that his fantasy was taking place between people who are responsible. I don't think the OP would be witness to some potentially harmful situation (hands tied too tightly, chair tipping over during struggle) and not take action if the other Dominant was unable to. Argh. It's called imagination. I was using mine in this case. YMMV. :)

RoughFN -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:34:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You do realize that subspace isn't a "submissive" thing? I just thought you may not be aware that masochists can achieve subspace as well as bottoms in a scene... just thought you might not be aware of it. You, as uber top never having tied up this dominant person have no idea how she is going to respond... and I will say again, how can the submissive's dom be responsible for the submissive when they are tied up? How can they top when they are bottoming? It just seems like you expect this submissive's dominant to be two places at once... And when the sub starts freaking out, calling safewords... what do you do? Do you ignore it? Do you stop the scene? If it is you who must stop the scene because the sub is freaking out, then yes YOU are taking the responsibility... and if you don't stop the scene, you are taking a legal risk..... you want to do that, go for it. Maybe the dom isn't a masochist or doesn't go into subspace. Maybe the uber top keeps it dialed back enough so as not to be a concern. Maybe she's so concerned about the situation that she can't get that far deep. Who knows. The middle domme doesn't have to be in two places at once. She's tied up and submitting during the scene, and after the fact she's not tied up and tends to her sub. If something goes wrong during the scene, you stop the whole thing and let everybody up. "Legal risk"? Give me a break, people. I brought up a lightly sketched out fantasy and I was curious to see how a sub in that situation would react to it and we're taking it to the far extreme of planning out all the little details and worrying about legal risk and what to do if a safeword is called? It's a fantasy! Safewords are never called in fantasies! Sheesh.

RCdc -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:40:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: verysweet Yes, of course I do. I 'assumed' that his fantasy was taking place between people who are responsible. I don't think the OP would be witness to some potentially harmful situation (hands tied too tightly, chair tipping over during struggle) and not take action if the other Dominant was unable to. Argh. It's called imagination. I was using mine in this case. YMMV. :) So you make the assumption that this scenario is held by responsible people, when at least one of them has defered any responsibility? And when we are told that the submissive/slave/pet would have no idea of this scenario and it isn't pre-agreed? You make assumptions when there is little or no information. Those are the words as they are written. the.dark.

juliaoceania -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:42:46 AM)
You asked how we would feel about this as submissive people.... I would feel abused. If I could not get up and stop what was happening and I could not leave, I might very well consider the uber top responsible, since my own dominant was incapacitated by bondage. If I wanted the scene to end because it was too much of a mind fuck, and it didn't end... I would blame the uber top. I do not take abuse very lightly, nor my limits being tread upon by strangers. I think that what bothers me most about the scenario you are painting is that you are using someone else's willingness to mind fuck their sub as a way of getting around nonconsent... Now if this is all about fantasy, never to become reality... who cares? People have nonconsent fantasies all the time, nothing new about yours.

CalifChick -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:55:51 AM)
I think Julia pretty much said it all... it's a mindfuck I don't think I could recover from; it would changes things probably irrevocably. Cali

OmegaG -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 9:59:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN I'm curious to know what some subs would think of this scenario. I've always had an interest in running a scene where I get to top a domme (just since I like girls, but feel free to flip around the scenario for a dom submitting, it just wouldn't be to me). The specifics aren't necessarily important, but would probably skew more towards what I normally like - light bondage (enough to restrain her), a good long flogging, and inevitably some sexual activities as well. Further, the effect I'm going for isn't focused on topping a domme or anything. I'm not out to demonstrate to another top that she's twuely submissive and should bow to my charms or anything. I mean, I'd expect her to play along and be respectful in the scene, but I'm not concerned about whether she's really submitting or just playing along. I'm much more interested in messing with the slave. I have no interest in doing anything with the slave (nor do I care if it's a guy or a girl), only the domme. A rough outline would be... Domme takes her slave into the room and ties her/him to a chair rather securely. I'm thinking a nice wooden chair with arm rests so there's plenty of points to secure his arms, legs, torso, neck to the chair very securely. Maybe secure the chair to the floor, too, to ensure that it won't tip over. The point is that he won't be able to move but will easily be able to watch. Next, I get to come in, and the domme promptly submits to me while the slave watches. He wouldn't have any prior knowledge of what's going to happen or that I'll be involved, just that he's been tied to a chair and that his lady will be doing something to him next. I'm sure the first thoughts when I come into the room would be, "Oh shit, what's this guy gonna do to me?" but it would quickly become obvious that I'm just there to top his mistress. We run the scene, clear up and leave. To complete the effect, I'll make sure to leave her lying facedown on the bed as I go and have her not get up or move for at least a few minutes. Again, just so the slave can stare at her lying limp and broken (or maybe just relaxed) on the bed. After that, she gets up and...well, I don't necessarily care, though I would be curious to know the effect on the slave afterwards. So how does that sound? I've been really curious to know if the slave would be turned on or shocked. After all, that's his lady and owner that's reduced to acting like...him. What would the after effects be? Ruin the relationship? Mildly unsettling? Nothing at all? Horribly disturbing? I'm not entirely sure, but I think when the sceen the slave expected changes to something he didn't agree to then it becomes imprisonment which is against the law. When the uberdom places himself in the room without aided the slave then he is an accessory at best to a crime. If it were me and I was vexed enough, I'd look into pressing charges.

sensiia -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 10:02:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Such a thing would turn my world upside down and I would not be able to view the dominant in the same light again. I couldn't agree more. It would most likely end the dynamic if not the relationhip. May sound shallow but it is what it is.

vampiresscammy -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 10:03:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN It's a fantasy! then thats entirely different, you shoulda said that, if its JUST a fantasy, play as you like, do whatever you wish if your trying to make it a reality, any Dom/me who would agree to this with NO word to their sub/slave/pet/insert appropriate term of your liking here is taking their relationship into their hands and more than likely going to loose said 'sub' for lack of trust and poor communication, screw the rest of the problem

venusinblu -> RE: watching your master/mistress submit (1/29/2008 10:05:59 AM)
What mistoferin said .. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Such a thing would turn my world upside down and I would not be able to view the dominant in the same light again.

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