With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (Full Version)

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wankerforuse -> With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/29/2008 9:20:25 PM)

same treatment and have an outright ban inposed upon it,as like smoking alocohol is very,very bad for you as we all know.So in my opinion you can't ban one thing like smoking,ban all smoking in public places,ban all smoking commercials.While alcohol related commercials are still allowed,and alcohol adverts are allowed to promote sports which is an outrage.

What im trying to say is that society accepts the gross missuse of alcohol,but yet they condemm/find it an outrage if you smoke oh.And you must quit as it's bad for you.Well yes it maybe but is'nt alcohol,so why ban one of them and not the other.When both will cause you great health problems in the long run if you over do it,on either one of these substances.

So what im asking of you is this why is there such an urgency to ban smoking.While nothing is being done about alcohol?And it is alcohol which are one of the many causes of such crime all over the world especially amongst young people who drink excessive amounts of this rubbish,only to get drunk,get violent are then a problem for the local authorities.And it's also a problem for people living locally near these pubs/bars as they must be terrified to go out late at night.But that's acceptable i think not an outright ban on alcohol is what is needed here.An immediate ban on all alcohol related commercials straight away,and curfews should be inposed on young people.To protect them and to keep them out of harms way.But what also does anyonelse think about what i have mentioned here please?  




Owner59 -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/29/2008 9:26:05 PM)

If drinking booze meant that the people around you also had to drink booze to(like w/ smoking),then you`d have a point.

But it doesn`t,so you don`t.





CrimsonMoan -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/29/2008 9:29:40 PM)

personally I don't agree with the smoking ban. I'm the child of a smoker and a social smoker myself and whenever anyone goes on about second hand smoke and so forth I find myself saying that not everyone is affected the same way by smoke. I do agree that hey if you don't smoke you shouldn't be subjected to dealing with it but in the case of bars/pubs/clubs smoking goes hand in hand with drinking.  As far as alcohol stopping the commercials and putting curfews on young people (I would assume you mean the under 21 set) would do very little curb the problem.

Without rolling patrols of police how is the curfew going to be enforced? There are plenty of irressponsible parents in today's world many of which buy booze for the young ppl in their life to begin with. Overall I don't think a ban is right for the simple fact that banning smoking and alcohol is just a step away from them banning fast food. There are plenty of things in this world that are not healthy for you. its about personal responsibility in my book. You wanna drink smoke and munch down that greasy double cheeseburger? Go for it. it's not my business what you do in your personal life as long as it doesn't directly invovle me.




Owner59 -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/29/2008 10:22:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

personally I don't agree with the smoking ban. I'm the child of a smoker and a social smoker myself and whenever anyone goes on about second hand smoke and so forth I find myself saying that not everyone is affected the same way by smoke. I do agree that hey if you don't smoke you shouldn't be subjected to dealing with it but in the case of bars/pubs/clubs smoking goes hand in hand with drinking.  As far as alcohol stopping the commercials and putting curfews on young people (I would assume you mean the under 21 set) would do very little curb the problem.

Without rolling patrols of police how is the curfew going to be enforced? There are plenty of irressponsible parents in today's world many of which buy booze for the young ppl in their life to begin with. Overall I don't think a ban is right for the simple fact that banning smoking and alcohol is just a step away from them banning fast food. There are plenty of things in this world that are not healthy for you. its about personal responsibility in my book. You wanna drink smoke and munch down that greasy double cheeseburger? Go for it. it's not my business what you do in your personal life as long as it doesn't directly invovle me.



I was raised by parents who smoked.I suffered from  asthma until my mom stopped,and my dad started to step outside.

They both said that they wouldn`t have smoked around my brothers and I,had they known about the damage that 2nd hand smoke can cause children.

Let me ask.Would you smoke around a youngster now,today,knowing about the dangers and damage it might cause them?




CrimsonMoan -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/29/2008 10:30:55 PM)

Owner i am not saying that there ISN'T damage from seconhand smoke. What I am saying is that it doesn't happen to everyone. My dad never smoked indoors when my parents were together. Once they split he smooked indoors and when we went out we sat in the smoking section.  Do I smoke around my own UM? No i don't. i don't even smoke when i have him for the week. The only time I ever drag on my lil cigars is Fridays when i'm at the bar. Don't misunderstand me though i would be the last person to tell anyone hey you can't smoke around your kid you might do this and that to them later down the line




Owner59 -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/29/2008 11:24:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

Owner i am not saying that there ISN'T damage from seconhand smoke. What I am saying is that it doesn't happen to everyone. My dad never smoked indoors when my parents were together. Once they split he smooked indoors and when we went out we sat in the smoking section.  Do I smoke around my own UM? No i don't. i don't even smoke when i have him for the week. The only time I ever drag on my lil cigars is Fridays when i'm at the bar. Don't misunderstand me though i would be the last person to tell anyone hey you can't smoke around your kid you might do this and that to them later down the line



CM,

Not  trying to flame you.Just wondering.

Smoking is now banned in NY and NJ,but before that,it was almost impossible to find a smoke free place to eat.

One evening,I was enjoying my supper at a local bar.A mother of two had just finished her meal,and came over to the bar area(away from her UMs)to smoke,right next to me.

My thought was,"ok,you can`t smoke near your family,but I`m fair game for your stink`n smoke."

She was selfish as they come.

I`m ok with people enjoying their smokes,as long as it`s not getting in other people`s faces/lungs.

Same with drink and rich foods.As long as one doesn`t drive drunk or puke on me,eat and drink all you want.






CuriousLord -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/29/2008 11:29:18 PM)

Smoking's more disgusting than drinking.  When you get down to it, that's why there's such a difference.  Drinking may be more damaging (I don't know about that), it may cause more wrecks, it may inspire more abusive relationships and families.. but when you get rid down to it, when you think of someone smoking and someone drinking, only one of them really just feels nasty.  And that's the smoker.

People very usually act off base urges.  The horrible smell and the sickening taste in the mouth, along with the reduced air quality, really make smoking the "ew" thing.  Drinking?  It may be just as bad, if not worse.. and the guy next to you drinking may crash into you later that night on the road.  But, when it comes down to it, that guy drinking next to you isn't polluting your air all night long.  Even if he is a risk, he's far less annoying.

So, in short, I think it's just plain easier to hate smoking.




meatcleaver -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/29/2008 11:49:03 PM)

Research has shown that working regualar night shifts doubles ones chance of developing cancer and reduces the life span of such people considerably. If governments were concerned about people's health they would stop people working regular night shifts but they won't for economic reasons. Sueing  ones employer would be difficult because you can't be prove beyond doubt someone developed cancer because of working nightshift. But hey! One can't prove beyond doubt that a cancer was developed through smoking. Yep, I know smoking is a statistical danger but working night shifts is too so why is one problem being addressed and not another?

Let's get onto something similar to smoking, traffic pollution. It has been shown that the recent rise in respiratory illnesses of children is caused through traffic pollution. Why are governments not doing anything about it? We are not talking about consenting adults here where smoking is concerned, we are talking about innocent children! Of course we know why. The anti-smoking lobby don't mind telling someone else what they can't do but they won't have anyone telling them they should give up their cars to save the health of innocent children. Their concern about health isn't that great.




LadyEllen -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 2:04:55 AM)

Anyone who thinks there are no second hand effects from the way drinking is done over here has clearly not thought it through. Alcohol releases inhibitions and prompts people to do things they wouldnt normally, and the effects are very much a community thing - fighting, casual sex with strangers, motor accidents, shouting screaming and cursing up and down the street till 3am, huge piles of vomit on the pavement (sidewalk) - not pretty to look at but also a public health risk, assorted other social problems - all of which impact on a much wider group than the drinker and his/her mates. Were it just clear up costs, well OK... but its not - we have STDs running rampant, people killed and maimed, families wrecked, lives wrecked, the list goes on.

And yet - drink is not the problem. Drink is just the escape of choice for the majority - it is rather the way the drink is used; an indicator perhaps of the degree of escape required in a society such as we have developed.

And isnt it so much handier to blame the drinkers and the drink companies for our ills, just the same as we blame immigrants and people smugglers for them - than to indicate very, very clearly who is truly responsible?

E




PrizedPosession -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/30/2008 2:16:28 AM)

"I love to smoke. I smoke seven thousand packs a day, ok. And I am never fucking quitting! I don't care how many laws they make. What's the law now? You can only smoke in your apartment, under a blanket, with all the lights out? Is that the rule now, huh?! The cops are outside, "We know you have the cigarettes. Come out of the house with the cigarettes above your head." "You'll never get me copper! I'm never coming out, you hear? I got a cigarette machine right here in my bedroom. Yeah!....I don't know. Personally, I think Billy Martin said it best when he said, "Hey! I can drive!" Because we tried to be nice to you non-smokers. We fucking tried. Okay? You wanted your own sections in the restaurants. We gave you that, huh. But that wasn't enough for you. Then you wanted the airplanes. We gave you the whole God damn plane! You happy now? You own the fucking plane! I'd like an explanation about that one folks because I will guarantee you if the plane is going down, the first announcement you're gonna hear is, "Folks, this is your Captain speaking. Look, uhm, light 'em up, 'cause we're going down, okay. I got a carton of Camels non-filters, I'll see you on the ground. Take it easy." Actually, it'd be more like this, "[VB] This is your Captain speaking. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em. Rrrr Rrrr"
-Denis Leary "No Cure For Cancer"


in no way am i smoker not one puff, grew up with it, but 50 feet from a door come on...
and it's a bar...they aren't exactly at a gym, let the poor men lit up and have a beer.




CuriousLord -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 2:28:38 AM)

You know, I think our society's okay.  Granted, it continually should be improved, and many of us are trying at that.  Compared to our past, though.. all the way back to prehistorics.. I think it's just gotten better along the way.

But, you know, I don't think there was some mystical golden age.. that that's just a fairy tale people like to believe in.  Maybe there were reprieves in which they had relatively few disasters for the times, but not a golden age.. certainly not by today's standards!

We enjoy so much freedom and security with incredible oppurtunities for wealth.  I think many people have come to underestimate what a novelity even just having an old, beat-up car is!  My, what people just a hundred years ago wouldn't have given for the thrill a modern-day rust bucket can deliver..

Life expectancy continues to climb, and we're feeding more people every day.  The major causes of death today afflict us now more than in the past because people never lived long enough to become afflicted by them!  (Seriously, who gives a damn about cancer when the life expectancy's 30 years?)


If anything.. perhaps people need to learn appreciation for what they have.




spiritd1 -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 3:07:17 AM)

I think our goverments are putting way too many controls on us and should stay the hell away. Yes we need some rules for protection against crime and fraud but our legal habits should be left alone. It won't be long we will have to get permission to eat our meals and they will tell us what we can eat and when. As for smoking it should be  regulated by the establishments, I somke and drink and the non smokers come to the places that we smoke in even though the is a no smoking bar upstairs from where I drink. If they are so against smoking why do they go to the smoking bars and complain, seems like they are just being stupid. I understand everyone should have their own type of envirorment but don't come inyo a smoking place and think that just because you come in everyone that smokes is to bow and stop smoking, who the hell do you think you are? As far a I can see most non smoking places are far and few between and not very many even use them, they perfer to go to the smoking places and you think it is fair that we have to stop smoking just because you walk in? I have my life and should be allowed to live it peascefully as you should also but don't follow me around and complain because my smoke bothers you, that is preety stupid.
    It is not the people that have gotten they smoking bans in anyway, it is the Dammed big insurance companies and the health care people.  Tese people ar running our lives just as they forced us to use seat belts, it should be our joice not theirs. You wait you are all for the seat belts and no smoking but they are not done they will step on your toes soon for something esle and I will just say suck it up sucker and walk on. 




meatcleaver -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/30/2008 3:28:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

personally I don't agree with the smoking ban. I'm the child of a smoker and a social smoker myself and whenever anyone goes on about second hand smoke and so forth I find myself saying that not everyone is affected the same way by smoke. I do agree that hey if you don't smoke you shouldn't be subjected to dealing with it but in the case of bars/pubs/clubs smoking goes hand in hand with drinking.  As far as alcohol stopping the commercials and putting curfews on young people (I would assume you mean the under 21 set) would do very little curb the problem.

Without rolling patrols of police how is the curfew going to be enforced? There are plenty of irressponsible parents in today's world many of which buy booze for the young ppl in their life to begin with. Overall I don't think a ban is right for the simple fact that banning smoking and alcohol is just a step away from them banning fast food. There are plenty of things in this world that are not healthy for you. its about personal responsibility in my book. You wanna drink smoke and munch down that greasy double cheeseburger? Go for it. it's not my business what you do in your personal life as long as it doesn't directly invovle me.



I was raised by parents who smoked.I suffered from  asthma until my mom stopped,and my dad started to step outside.

They both said that they wouldn`t have smoked around my brothers and I,had they known about the damage that 2nd hand smoke can cause children.

Let me ask.Would you smoke around a youngster now,today,knowing about the dangers and damage it might cause them?



Traffic pollution is the cause of the steep increase in child respitory illnesses not smoking, yet I don't see the same people calling for a ban on smoking calling for a ban on traffic pollution. Why not? Could it possibly be it will effect them?

The last time I was in England, I went into a local pub to my brother and it was empty, the grumpy landlord behind the bar said everybody was out the back in the smoking tent, including the none smokers!  Obviously they can't stand each others puritanical natures, well not the ones in that pub.




Aneirin -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 4:21:33 AM)

Smoking in public I agree is a problem in that those that choose not to smoke for whatever reason are inflicted also. But I feel our government has failed to deal with the problem, making a law just aggravates people in that those people that are affected just feel yet another small pleasure is no longer allowed. Here in Britain as always, it has gone over the top, you cannot go nowhere now without seeing a little sign saying,'It is against the law to smoke in public places', and I mean they are everywhere, visible pollution.

For smokers constantly seeing this sign, it is like a case of rubbing it in, and I have seen places where the signs are vandalised or removed and even bus shelters where all the glass has been broken so the shelter is no longer an enclosed space.

I say the government has failed to deal with the problem, in that all it has done is just follow suit with every other country, it could have explored the options and to remember why the smoking ban was first thought of, was because of pubs and resturaunts, not the rest of the public spaces.

Despite what statistics there are available, pubs have suffered a loss in custom, my local pub has reported this, none but the hardy will smoke outside on a cold winter's night. My local has an undercover smoking area, which at times is more popular than the inside, the lounge just being a bar where people buy drinks and then move out to the smoking area and because it is cold, hug their pints instead of drinking their usual which does affect business.My local pub landlord was even thinking of closing the smoking area to get back his business, but fears no business.

Let's get this into perspective, smoking is a choice, a personal choice, how someone wishes to abuse their health is up to them and let's not forget the tax on tobacco products, surely the smokers paying more tax are contributing more to the country than a non smoker. So people say smokers who contract illnesses through smoking should be disbarred from hospital treatment, Why, they have paid for it via their national insurance contributions and the added tax from smoking.Smokers tend not to get ill as much as non smokers, and there is a suggestion that smokers would be ok with avian flu if it ever became a problem, so it is not as if smokers are that much of a burden on the NHS, just a political burden.

Sidestream smoke from smokers, really is small potatoes compared to what we might inhale in a city, diesel fumes being a very well known carcinogen, if you can smell diesel fumes, you are breathing it in and possibly lining your lungs with sulpherous carbon and whatever other nasty the fuel company has put in it.

Alcohol problems, people's choice, smoking, people's choice, eating fatty food, again people's choice.Excess in anything equals more tax paid.Honestly the government should concern itself with running the country, not interfering in people's lives, they do not own us and there should not dictate to us.We are entitled to choice as human beings, like any other human being.

Alcohol related crime, same as drug related crime, if that is a law and order problem, then those who police us should deal with it.

And let's not forget that though the government says we really should not smoke, drink more than whatever is the current limit or eat more of something we like, they still continue to allow the sale of those bad,bad things and there reap high tax from them.




RCdc -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 6:10:54 AM)

This is Darcy

I have no objection to establishments being given the legal right, with no recourse, to ban smokers from their premises, but as has been noted, once again the UK government has gone completely over the top and introduced a blanket ban.

We are essentially being dictated to, which goes against all of the principles of democracy. If you don't want to smoke, then that's fine. I'm all for bans in restaurants, and theatres, and the more obvious places like schools, hospitals, and nurserys, but the fact remains that there are some of us who do enjoy a smoke (I personally don't smoke cigarettes but do enjoy the more than occasional cigar), and there should be places that cater for this.

Why could the government not have left the option to allow the old fashioned smoking clubs to remain in place. Then, those of us who are OK with damaging our lungs, polluting our clothes and generally hastening the decline of modern society could actually indulge in our pleasures.

But what about the staff, I hear the anti-smokers cry? Well, make it clear that the job is in a smoking environment, pay a decent wage, and there should be no problem. After all, you do to an extent choose where you want to work. A vegetarian, for example, may not wish to work in an abbatoir, just as a non-smoker can choose not to work in a pub or club that allows smoking. Likewise you probably won't find Tipper Gore (or Mary Whitehouse to give the UK equivalent) working in a sex shop, or in a porno theatre, but it doesn't mean that nobody should work there, or that there aren't people who actually choose to work there.

The thing that pisses me off the most is the lack of choice. I'm an adult, I pay taxes, so if I want to indulge in something that is anti-social, but in the company of others who are accepting of this, then why the hell can't I? Taken a step further, who's to say that the powers that be won't suddenly decide that fetish events are bad for society and pass a blanket ban forbidding any venues from hosting them? It doesn't matter that we want to do these things behind closed doors, as it were (and as smoking clubs would effectively be) - if the 'masses' don't like it then fuck it, nobody can do it.

Were I to get into political office (and never say never) then I would lobby long and hard for the right for an establishment to choose to be a smoking establishment.

*lights up his cigar*




LadyEllen -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 6:17:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
So people say smokers who contract illnesses through smoking should be disbarred from hospital treatment, Why, they have paid for it via their national insurance contributions and the added tax from smoking.


Dont know if you saw recently the figures calculated by the Tories for government health spending allocation for cancer treatment? In many areas, as little as £5000-00 is allocated for funding with the highest around £15,000-00. This is the first year its been possible to make such calculations due to some change in the way the figures are published.

Tax on a packet of 20 is at least £3-50; we know this because this is the difference in price for the same brands on the continent and here in the UK.

Smoking 20 a day (a fairly average consumption), the smoker contributes around £1300-00 per annum in additional taxes. Despite warnings, the health problems associated with smoking do take some time to develop - often decades. Within a few years the smoker has contributed the allocated funding for cancer treatment at the lower sum mentioned above and within just over a decade has contributed the funding at the higher sum mentioned.

Either make it illegal or stop this ridiculous blame game where smokers are responsible for the downfall of western civilisation. Oh, but be prepared to pay more tax to make up the shortfall in revenue. Other happy spin offs include no more cannabis smoking of course - any form of smoking will be enough for a conviction and the materials for the former will be absent from the shops. Then we can have more people turn to booze for their escape instead - leading to more "happy nights out" and health and social problems than tobacco ever led to.

E




LadyEllen -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 6:28:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Were I to get into political office (and never say never) then I would lobby long and hard for the right for an establishment to choose to be a smoking establishment.



And there we have it!

We introduced 24 hour licensing, so people could have choice - despite the prophecies of the problems it would cause and in many places had led to. The choice of whether to consume a poison responsible for enormous health and social problems and which had many side effects on non partakers, just like smoking.

Yet we are not given any choice on whether to make our pub, restaurant or club (even cigar afficianodo clubs are subject to a smoking ban!) a smoking establishment where people could have the choice whether to work there or enter there. It seems that "market forces" - normally invoked by this government to be the solution to everything, is something to be feared in this case.

E




pahunkboy -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 6:34:19 AM)

it is about time to ban smoking.  i cant breath.




seeksfemslave -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given the (1/30/2008 6:40:32 AM)

I say ban everything the 'elf and safety lobby says is dangerous.

Cars, aeroplanes, pot 'oling, boxing, eating to excess, gambling, you might lose, sex, it raises the blood pressure , mountaineering, etc etc etc.

What is so wrong with people smoking/drinking themselves to death ?
So long as they know the risks then let them choose.
The self destruction is a sympton anyway. No doubt about that !
I know I'm right

Suicide is a legitimate life choice IMO.





beargonewild -> RE: With all the fuss over the smoking bans especially here in the uk should alcohol not be given th (1/30/2008 6:51:45 AM)

~FR~

Whether a person smokes or consumes alcohol, that still is a personal choice to make. The majority of people who smoke are curteous around non smokers and we do abide by their wishes not to smoke in their home or in their vehicle. In a public place such as a restaurant or bar, we all have a choice to go to a bar which people smoke in or go to one which most'y non smokers frequent. Here in Canada, the air quality standards set by the gov't is at higher level then what it is for a residence. Therefore, it was extremely rare to walk into any restaurant and see a blue haze of smoke in the air.
This is just my humble opinion folks as I light up a cigarette!




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