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RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 12:19:46 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		On my submissive side, I enjoy micromanagement to a degree. I like it because it instills in me an even stronger sense of my partner's domination, and it keeps me in this little mental space that I adore.

As a dominant, I haven't, honestly, had experience with submissives who are similiar to my submissive side. The submissives I have worked with are more independent, and micromanagement simply has not worked with them. I would enjoy it for the right person with the right motivation, however.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 12:21:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:



I like my submissive partners to able bodied humans who essentially could function without my control but who thoroughly get off on me superimposing my control.

I don't feel I've got the ability to superimpose my control over anyone, though it is a kick when someone accepts it. That is probably a minor difference in outlook toward a statement I otherwise agree with.


Ok Mr. Smarty pants, you said it way better then me. I'm not superimposing... more like overlaying it and of course they gotta want it ;)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 9/4/2005 12:23:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 1:41:07 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline 		Micromangement is something that has never appealled to me. I suspect it would make me feel as though I was a huge burden on my dominant, which is exactly opposite what I love about being submissive.

I don't for a moment believe all subs would or should feel this way if they are in a micromanged relationship, but I believe this is how it would affect me, personally.

I love when I have been able to solve a problem, or suggest an activity, or suprised my dominant with something that brings him pleasure. For me, submitting is a very active/creative thing.

Cin

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 2:25:39 PM   
MstrHellsFury


Posts: 388
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		well LA...I do micro...popcorn late at night...(smile)

Fury

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 3:01:41 PM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		I have spent years in the military with good managers and bad and I, for one, do not like the micro-management technique. I refused to use it on my people then and I won't use it on my Sub now. If my Sub is too dumb to think and make decisions then she's too dumb to be with me. LaMspeach has the right idea. Use good judgement and do what needs to be done. That's one of the things that makes a Sub really valuable to her Dom. My opinion; sorry if it rubs anyone the wrong way.

< Message edited by OscarHargraves -- 9/4/2005 3:02:47 PM >

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RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 3:36:53 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		OK. So the vast majority of responses to date are less in favour of micromanagement. And yes it's only 25 posts and far from a complete picture.

I acknowledge what KittenWithaTwist mentioned about liking micromanagement to a degree, though she didn't specify what the degree is. Perhaps all subs like it to a degree but does that degree. I mean some people like a teaspoon of sugar in their coffee and some people like a teaspoon of coffee in their sugar, right?

quote:

I have spent years in the military with good managers and bad and I, for one, do not like the micro-management technique.


This is interesting. You are the first to bring up the issue of micromanagement in a management/employment context since I stated it in my OP. I see that parallel too. In fact, most HR books will tell you to get away from the micromanagement technique, or to use it only when necessary.

So my next question is, what kind of message are we sending to submissives if we were to use a strong micromanagement approach?

- LA


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 4:20:58 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
So my next question is, what kind of message are we sending to submissives if we were to use a strong micromanagement approach?

- LA

I call them quirks, EVERY dominant has them (heck every person does). no matter how delegatory a dominants style overall is, I have yet to meet a dom who didn't have SOMETHING they were picky and precise with. Finding out what those things are is really important and something a sub should find out before the relationship gets too serious! A personals precise quirks, specially if they are laid-back in general, tend to be VERY serious to a person, even if they only realize that AFTER it's not done "just so."

Once you've found out what they are, you just have to inwardly roll your eyes, say yes sir/maam, do it and move on. It's just an irrational quirk about them.

If a dominant uses a strong micromanagement approach, such as always picking out clothes, always picking out food, always giving permission for every hour and activity of the day, always needing a check in, basically being in direct authority over every day to day issue, etc etc it could mean a few things.

It COULD mean that's just their personality style, a dominant who actually IS a control freak. It COULD mean that they are insecure and afraid of losing control. It COULD be their way of expressing love to the other person and an emotional attachment, by taking so much time and focus on the other person. It COULD be that they haven't learned to relax or train their sub how to take over on things.

Or something else completely.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 7:55:32 PM   
LadyJC


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline 		The things I'm extremely picky with. I've always done it for myself, partially cause I'm used to it and the other reason it's just easier.
For instance my clothes...I'm really picky about my laundry how it gets washed and folded...don't ask me why. I just do it myself to solve that issue, I'm used to doing it and honestly I don't mind doing my laundry.
I also dont' mind driving myself places. My mom who is in the lifestyle always hated driving and has problems driving so she gets someone to do it for her. Now for the most part one of her submissive's drives her.
I agree I couldn't handle being the one to stand over someone and say, wash the dishes, ok now clean off the counter, now clean the living room. If they see it needs to be done then get it done but don't whine about it.
I mean I know I'm looking for a 24/7 thing but in order for a relationship to work you can't be with them literally 24/7. You have to go to work, you have to go run some errands pay bills and then like me I just have to get out of the house for a while and let my hair down, or do something as calmly as go for coffee and write or read with out them bugging as to what I'm doing. I expect while I'm gone for them to be able to handle themselves and take care of themselves whether I'm gone for an hour or I'm gone for a few days.
I do have expectations of my sub such as being able to cook and clean and take care of himself...those are my major ones actually...I can't stand ppl who need to lean on someone else in every aspect of their lives. I also expect honest opinions and sometimes questions to enlighten themselves or even myself. Especially if it's with someone who's more experienced than me. (Which isn't hard to find since I've been in the lifestyle for just over 2 yrs.)
Lady JC

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/4/2005 9:04:47 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Ok Mr. Smarty pants, you said it way better then me. I'm not superimposing... more like overlaying it and of course they gotta want it ;)

For a change I don't agree with any of this except for the Mr. Smarty Pants part, and in this case that wasn't my intention.

And I'll get off topic here by explaining that I believe dominant skills include the arts of charm and persuasion. I think you've got those skills in abundance and and can get your way in almost any situation by subtly using them to your advantage; therefore folks can be dominated in that sense whether they want it or even realize it or not and for that matter you may not even realize you're doing it. I don't kid myself by thinking that I'm charming; that lack of charm limits my ability to persuade to simply beating others into accepting my position on occasion by overwhelming them with an barrage of facts. No art or subtlety involved there.

So, I think it is possible to dominate folks even if they don't want it and I think you've got the skills to do it. And that's why I pointed out the potential difference in outlooks.

Sincerely,

Mr. Smarty Pants

< Message edited by happypervert -- 9/4/2005 9:07:13 PM >

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RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 5:49:36 AM   
FTopinMichigan


Posts: 571
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So I’m curious. How many of you share my view, think I’m completely out in left field or think this might be fine for me but totally get off on micromanagement. And why?

- LA




quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

Hi LA,

I definitely share your view. Because I choose to experience this lifestyle within a monogamous, loving relationship, my submissive needs to be someone with whom I can relate on many levels. I want my relationship to be a partnership with someone who shares my interests in BDSM and D/s, as well as vanilla life, without needing to be micromanaged. My sub needs to have a strong sense of self and be comfortable in his role, as well as comfortable in his life in general.



Ditto, to what LadyJulieAnn offered above.

I will add that I tend to loathe the type of submissive men I've been meeting lately. Not wanting to generalize (but, I will )...but the majority of male subs I've met, are far too quiet and introverted for me. When I am quite clear about enjoying an extrovert, with a strong personality, I see men that stay quiet and do the "wait-until-spoken-to" character.

This type may be fun "in scene," but is hardly the relationship type, if he can't express himself. And I'm talking about expressing themselves whether in an formal or informal introduction, or even when asked direct questions. (How many of us can be Dental experts, 'cause it's like pulling teeth to get some guys to talk?)

And yes, I've met the strong, confident and self assured (male) subs, but they are usually attached to a partner/wife. In most cases, it's the wife, and the couple's evolution or discovery into BDSM that came 'after' the marriage. (And in my own observation, I've found the majority of submissive women to be more than confident about themselves, and "very" strong in personality, in contrast to men.)

When I've talked with this type of man, to explain my lack of interest in them, they respond defensively with, "that's what women want." Really? Did anyone tell the women?

I am happy to see that most of my lady friends, and it appears quite a few here too...do not seem to enjoy the same type that makes me cringe. (I've also noticed many confident male sub posters here, which is pleasant to see.)

I like someone that has enough confidence in themselves to be able to articulate who they are and what they like, as well as hold a simple conversation. I've found it rare to find an articulate AND confident sub man that isn't a wallflower, at BDSM events. He's usually that same guy that complains, "I just can't seem to meet anyone."

K

(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 6:42:07 AM   
Oumae


Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		I too like strong confident subs with initiative. Micromanaging can be fun during playtime but not something I'd want to do all the time as it would become an ordeal and bore me.
I'll give a sub certain guidelines but I expect them to use their heads and act accordingly. If they have a problem or question of course I'm there and want to hear it but not interested in directing every move.

Oumae

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 8:49:12 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
And I'll get off topic here by explaining that I believe dominant skills include the arts of charm and persuasion. I think you've got those skills in abundance and and can get your way in almost any situation by subtly using them to your advantage; therefore folks can be dominated in that sense whether they want it or even realize it or not and for that matter you may not even realize you're doing it. I don't kid myself by thinking that I'm charming; that lack of charm limits my ability to persuade to simply beating others into accepting my position on occasion by overwhelming them with an barrage of facts. No art or subtlety involved there.

So, I think it is possible to dominate folks even if they don't want it and I think you've got the skills to do it. And that's why I pointed out the potential difference in outlooks.


I sort of understand what you mean but it's not completely clear. Since it is off-topic, I'm sure you won't mind if I start another thread to address this <bats her eyelashes persuasively>.

- LA


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 9:01:33 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I will add that I tend to loathe the type of submissive men I've been meeting lately. Not wanting to generalize (but, I will )...but the majority of male subs I've met, are far too quiet and introverted for me. When I am quite clear about enjoying an extrovert, with a strong personality, I see men that stay quiet and do the "wait-until-spoken-to" character.


I know exactly what you mean. In another thread, elegant said the following:
quote:

I am a dominant slave, a slave with a very dominant personality. I have never called myself a submissive. (actually I try not to lable anyone as a submisive as the word is not a noun. )


That made sense to me. I mean there is the whole debate about what the word slave means, but yeah, I can get into that definition. I'm not so fond of the word submissive myself. I like a guy (and on occasion girl) who is tough as nails. I'd probably be more likely to say I'd like a socially dominant masochistic devotee © LA 2005 (ha!).

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to FTopinMichigan)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 2:05:34 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Master has a saying.....you can't do a power exchange if you don't have any power to exchange. He likes someone that brings something to the table. There is more to submission than just obeying. He feels that he shouldn't have to tell you to do everything, you should be proactive.



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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 2:21:46 PM   
anopheles


Posts: 241
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kc692


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

Just sitting here wondering if there really are people who "can't function" unless someone is telling them what to do all the time? And why would anyone have a relationship with them..? Isn't that obvious? Is this really just a case of mismatching of objectives and personalities? Is it that the sub man (?) is asking for direction as to how to please the f dom, but she'd much rather he guessed what she wanted? Or are there really sub men around who are so clueless..?

I'm just bemused by the idea of hopeless men (?) wandering around lost without women to whip them into shape... Just wondering... because I evidently have no experience of this...

~ Elektra


I think one of the directions LA may have been coming from was this:

I have seen (albeit, female, and these experiences have been limited), slaves, that even ask for permission to go to the bathroom, and if told no, (and I have seen this ) quietly squirm until being allowed to. I am not saying this is wrong;hell, if it works for them, go for it. But, there ARE some relationships that ARE micromanaged, with specific lists when the dom/me is absent, accounting for every minute of the day, with no deviation expected. I personally do not like to micromanage, like LA and some of the others, I do not have the time or the inclination for it, and, since my preference is for motivated, self-starters(whether male or female), the need to micromanage defeats the purpose of preferring those types of people, IMO.




As odd as it may seem to most of us, there are those out there that desire the micro-managed, zero-choice, zero-control life that most of us would consider being turned into a doormat. For me, it would be WAY too difficult. I have a hard enough time finding socks that match in the morning, let alone essentially "thinking for someone else" on a 24/7 basis. The benefits for either the Dom or the sub in that arrangement are lost on me, and I would be fascinated to hear from someone who does practice this lifestyle, and what their joys/benefits are.

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RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 2:29:49 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The benefits for either the Dom or the sub in that arrangement are lost on me, and I would be fascinated to hear from someone who does practice this lifestyle, and what their joys/benefits are.


Me too! Will the micromanager please stand up and enlighten us? I mean, providing s/he does exist...

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/5/2005 11:01:07 PM   
LittleMissSub


Posts: 46
Joined: 2/23/2005
Status: offline 		So I'm one of these "strong, alpha type" subs. I state this CLEARLY in my profile. I need an equally if not more so strong personality to Dom me. And it's funny, because I attract submissive vanilla men to me, that's how alpha I am in my "normal" life. People who have an inkling that I'm kinky think I'm a domme.

I just spent the last 3 years running 2 companies and now I'm writing a novel. I've purchased a home and I'm 24. I know I'm capable of making good life choices that lead to success. If I see a situation going downhill I will step in and try to save it. I will always try to anticipate what's coming next so I can be adequately prepared for it.

However, just because I am capable of making these decisions, doesn't mean I enjoy doing it. I have had a lot of responsibility thrown on me in my life for a long time, and most of it I've taken on myself. Who knows why. But I now I know I don't like it. Nothing is more freeing that giving up control to another and letting go, not having to make decisions.

But i don't want EVERY decision made for me. I too like a degree of micro management. You want to pick out what I eat sometimes, fine. You want to pick my clothes for a special occassion, fine. Pick out my toenail polish? fine. i know one Dom who is definitely a micromanager. He liked to pick out make up, nail polish colours, tell you how to apply the make up. If you crossed your legs in the morning, right leg would go over left, in the afternoon left leg over right. The leg thing I thought was cool. Little things like that allow you to keep your submission in your mind all the time without feeling as though you're obsessing over your partner. You constantly feel as though you're serving, even when they're not around. It's like an inside joke that you can take pleasure in all by yourself.

I know for sure i wouldn't want everything decided for me...that's something that I perceive to come with being a slave....but I'm probably wrong. I do take a great amount of pleasure in figuring out what a Dom wants, and challenging them in different ways. If I didn't challenge my Dom as much as I expect him to challenge me, I would feel I was only taking in the relationship, not giving anything back and wouldn't feel completely comfortable.

lol, don't give up, there are the micro-management type out there.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/6/2005 5:53:15 AM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I agree 100%. A sub should want a Mistress not need one.

gary

---------------------
not need one?....??? hmmm. well? actually ...."I" NEED my Mistress because vanilla SUCKS! and i partially resent your statement.
i figure if there is no need there is no desire. and desire is the foundation of my service. otherwise i may as well go find a cave and live away from human kind.
solly cholly. NEED is something have-to. want is just a whim. i may want a 2006 but i dont need it. i NEED my Mistress because i NEED to serve.

wolf


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RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/6/2005 1:22:09 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Me too! Will the micromanager please stand up and enlighten us? I mean, providing s/he does exist...


LA,
One person's definition of "micro-management" may be another person's definition of "lifestyle". What is your definition of "micro management"?

In your situation, do you require someone in your service to ask permission for the privilege of an orgasm or is that under their control? Can someone in your service come to see any time or do you set the time/place? Does you sub determine which implement to be used in sessions? Saying no to any of these could be defined as micro management.

But I'd agree that most would define it by requiring specific behavior for specific activities. Mandating the type and style of dress and undress, daily ritual, position training, protocol, requiring specific appearance, permission for mundane tasks such as bathroom privileges, drinking, eating, smoking; as well as speech in public and private are just some of the aspects of the relationship I have with beth. If that is the perception of micromanagement - I am a micro-manager. Why? One reason is it provides opportunity to put the dynamic of our relationship into the realm of every day life. Many people post here wondering how to maintain or interject M/s relationship in the vanilla world. Requiring permission for mundane activities, especially when out in vanilla life, is one way. But the biggest reason I'm a micro manager is - I ENJOY IT!

I am naturally "anal retentive". Not quite chronic to the point of OCD, but close enough to appreciate those that are. I like order and discipline. I believe there is a "right way" to do everything. I believe that constant reinforcement and repetition results in desired behavior. I want things my way. I already try to run my business and myself under these beliefs. To me it was natural to want the same in a person who would be my slave. I know I get "my way" in many aspects of my life and business. But a slave is not one of those aspects. With a slave I can have it my way, ALL the time, in the specific way I want it to be. It's not micro management to me - it's heaven.

I don't agree that being at the submissive end of this type defined relationship requires a "doormat". As I've stated in the past, if I never sought an automaton or some form of mindless bimbo. There is no domination employed over a machine or doormat. It takes no effort and I would get no sense of satisfaction if there wasn't an underlying strength and confidence in the person I was dominating. Don't doubt that beth is a very strong and opinionated individual. beth's strength, intelligence, and sense of self are valuable assets that she brought into the relationship and she has within the relationship. she hasn't lost them by turning the responsibility for her decisions over to me. her submission to my rules and my definition of what a 24/7 lifestyle entails is an indication of her devotion to me and her desire to be a slave. beth believes, and I agree, that she was ALWAYS a slave, it is part of her core self identity. As she puts it, she was always "somebody's slave", except now it's better defined and she actually derives pleasure, satisfaction, and enjoyment from the experience. The activities and daily rules she lives by provide her a sense of worth and accomplishment. They are reinforcement of her identity and NOT in any way a relinquishment of her self worth. I wouldn't allow that. I strive to make her more confident in her submission at every opportunity. By the way, I consider my enforcement of those rules indication my devotion to her.

Does this style of 24/7 require an effort? YES! But shouldn't a relationship require an effort by both parties in the areas deemed important? Does it get boring or monotonous? NO. I have never thought it a burden. Since I learned of the existence of this lifestyle I've desired it at this intensity. I studied and witnessed others over the years and I determined this is what I wanted. Why would something I've always desired be monotonous? I wanted to live this way. It's fulfilling to have someone accept and live under those rules.

As I told beth when she contemplated being my slave; her decision to be my slave would be the LAST decision she would be allowed. I knew exactly what that meant. I made sure before she agreed that she also knew exactly what that meant. It was one of the primary reasons I wrote out the rules she lives. To this day, she reads them every day as part of her ritual. In my mind, it's easier to know what is expected versus having undefined boundaries. Our goal is defined. Our expectations for each other are documented. It takes a strong person on both sides to live up to those expectations.

If any more "enlightenment" is necessary, feel free to ask either of us, either in this forum or directly.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The powerful and independent submissive - now there... - 9/6/2005 3:36:22 PM   
MrPost


Posts: 15
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		Webster’s definition of micromanage(ment): To manage with great or excessive control or attention to detail.
For me, a good dominant should have a great respect for attention to detail. The level of control should is part of the interpersonal dynamic of a M/S or D/S relationship. The control also depends on the type of relationship, whether it is 24/7, 24/3. 4/7. or 1/1. Dominants also tend to micromanage more when training a new sub/slave, so that the sub/slave is given detailed expectations of the dominants wishes, wants, and desires. A good thing, saves us from a sore butt later on.
That being said.
Personal definition of micro-management: type of supervision that involves constant direct control of the person that he/she/it is supervising.
I have taken out the “or”s in mine. This is either a bad type of dominant or a bad type of submissive. On the dominant side of the house, it is as EmeraldSlave2 said, they are either a control freak or insecure on some level, maybe that the S's training was lacking or whatever. For the submissives that enjoy it, it is a “LOOK AT ME” mentality, what happens when the M says, “clean the bathroom, I will be back in three hours”? Usually, a crest fallen sub or a dirty bathroom.
I left the attention to detail out because, as I said previously, it is a good thing. In the above example, if M comes back and lays into the S because the toilet paper wasn’t folded in the “V” and the seems of the towels were facing the wrong way; even if the S had the initiative to sneak in the hypo allergenic, all natural with a fruity smell and rather expensive soap the M really, really enjoys, I don’t see any problem with that.

MrPost
Personal Opinon Only, Not to be Taken as LAW (yet).


_____________________________

I groan for the present sorrow. I groan for the sorrow to come. I groan questioning when there shall come a time when He shall ordain a limit to my suffering.
Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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